Did Kelson or others purge the episcopate in 1121?

[tmcd]

It might be in The Bishop's Heir, but I'm feeling very unwell & not minded to read anything more demanding than a fluffy comic.

Loris got booted and Corrigan got 6 feet of land, but did any other bishops get kicked out after Loris and Corrigan were taken?

[Bynw]

I would have to re-read it. But I think there was a bit of a shake up after that event. Several got moved around and others lost their bishop rank but could still function as priests and so forth.

[DoctorM]

I would have to re-read it. But I think there was a bit of a shake up after that event. Several got moved around and others lost their bishop rank but could still function as priests and so forth.

At least in the modern Church, it's very hard to fire or demote a bishop. A bishop is consecrated forever. The usual thing is to "re-assign" a problem bishop-- assign him to some post far and away from any authority. Back in John Paul II's day, a recalcitrant old-school French bishop was re-assigned as bishop of a see in North Africa-- a prize bishopric in late-Roman days, but long since emptied out by coastal erosion and now completely underwater. (The bishop's followers replied by creating a "virtual bishopric" online).

[Bynw]

Here is a list of Bishops that were demoted or otherwise imprisoned.

(the list comes from an appendix in Deryni Magic)

Suspended and imprisoned for life:
Belden of Erne
Lachlan de Quarles
Creoda of Carbury

Deprived of rank but still allowed to function as priests, under supervision:
Gilbert Desmond
Mir de Kierney
Raymer de Valence
Calder of Sheele
Nevan d'Estrelldas

[Bynw]

Here is the full list (again from Deryni Magic)

Bishops of Gwynedd, 1122

VALORET––Archbishop Bradene of Grecotha
Auxiliary -Bishop Henry Istelyn
RHEMUTH––Archbishop Thomas Cardiel
Auxiliary––Bishop Duncan McLain
DHASSA––Bishop Denis Arilan
GRECOTHA––Bishop Wolfram de Blanet
COROTH––Bishop Ralf Tolliver
CULDI––Bishop Creoda of Carbury
MARBURY––Bishop Ifor
STAVENHAM––Bishop Conlan
MEARA––Bishop Carsten
CASHIEN––Bishop Belden of Erne
CARDOSA––Bishop Siward
BALLYMAR––Bishop Lachlan de Quarles
Itinerant bishops: 12 (plus two auxiliaries)
Gilbert Desmond
Nevan d'Estrelldas
James MacKenzie
Corbet Mathiesen
Hugh de Berry
John Fitz-Padriac
Mir de Kierney
Amaury of Rhelledd
Raymer de Valence
Edward of Cloome
Bevan de Torigny
Calder of Sheele (Dhugal's uncle)

Bishops of Gwynedd, 1125

VALORET––Archbishop Bradene of Grecotha
Auxiliary––Bishop Benoit d'Evering
RHEMUTH––Archbishop Thomas Cardiel
Auxiliary––Bishop Duncan McLain
DHASSA––Bishop Denis Arilan
GRECOTHA––Bishop Wolfram de Blanet
COROTH––Bishop Ralf Tolliver
CULDI––Bishop Bevan de Torigny
MARBURY––Bishop Ifor of Marley
STAVENHAM––Bishop Conlan
MEARA––Bishop John Fitz-Padriac
CASHIEN––Bishop James MacKenzie
BALLYMAR––Bishop Hugh de Berry
CARDOSA––Bishop Siward
Itinerant bishops: 12
Corbet Matheisen
Amaury of Rhelledd
Edward of Cloome
Jodoc d'Armagne
8 not named
Suspended and imprisoned for life:
Belden of Erne
Lachlan de Quarles
Creoda of Carbury
Deprived of rank but still allowed to function as priests, under supervision:
Gilbert Desmond
Mir de Kierney
Raymer de Valence
Calder of Sheele
Nevan d'Estrelldas

[tmcd]

@DoctorM "Titular bishop" or "episcopus in partibus infedelium".

@Bynw Thank you for the data, but I was wondering about 1121 in particular, after half the episcopal curia voted to interdict Gwynedd but Kelson won anyway. I think those you listed were after the Mearan revolt. Creoda, at least, was instrumental in the capture of Henry Istelyn in chapter 6 of The Bishop's Heir.

[revanne]

It's a long time since I read Deryni Rising but I would guess that Kelson would be aiming at reconciliation. Loris was sent to do penance in that austere monastery but otherwise I don't remember any sanctions. Kelson may have won but he can't afford to alienate the church, especially if his long-term goal is the revocation of the statutes ( edict?) of Ramos. Of course the events of the Bishop's Heir put paid to this.

Just how shaky things still are in regard to the Deryni can be seen in Arilan and Cardiel's furious response to Duncan's outing of himself at Dhugal's knighting. 

[Bynw]

@Bynw Thank you for the data, but I was wondering about 1121 in particular, after half the episcopal curia voted to interdict Gwynedd but Kelson won anyway. I think those you listed were after the Mearan revolt. Creoda, at least, was instrumental in the capture of Henry Istelyn in chapter 6 of The Bishop's Heir.

For that you would have to re-read it and take lots of notes.

[revanne]

Oops, that should have read High Deryni

[Avisa]

Back in John Paul II's day, a recalcitrant old-school French bishop was re-assigned as bishop of a see in North Africa-- a prize bishopric in late-Roman days, but long since emptied out by coastal erosion and now completely underwater. (The bishop's followers replied by creating a "virtual bishopric" online).

Is it terribly disrespectful that I find this extremely hilarious?

[tmcd]

Stephen Jay Gould wrote an essay on "The Titular Bishop of Titiopolis". It was a bishopric in central Anatolia, so the papacy of the 1600s didn't exactly have the ability to put someone there actually. (BTW, the particular one Gould had in mind was Saint Nicolas Steno, whom some regard as "one of the founders of modern stratigraphy and modern geology".)

[JudithR]

Is it permitted to remember that when the Church of England was having its "Third Province" discussion mumble years ago it was suggested that an Archbishopric of Rockall should be created?

[tmcd]

When the captain of the boat judged that they had made their offing from Cassan, he sent his strongest hands below. They soon returned with their burden, who was gagged and vainly struggling in heavy iron chains securely locked.

A black-clad blond man doffed his hat and addressed him with outward respect.

"Archbishop Loris, in light of your actions during the Torenthi war earlier this year, some members of the court have decided that you deserve a ... promotion." The hands wrestled Loris to the railing.

"Congratulations. You're the new Primate of Caeriesse."

"SPLASH glug glug", added the sea.

[JudithR]

Apropos of which, resulting from the present hooha in the CofE, it has been suggested that the Third Province could be Atlantis.

[revanne]

Apropos of which, resulting from the present hooha in the CofE, it has been suggested that the Third Province could be Atlantis.

I personally feel that Numenor has a better ring to it.