Half-Deryni

[Bynw]

The other day there was a slight chat on this topic in the chatroom. And since that isn't a lasting feature. I thought it would be good to bring it over here where we can all comment on it.

The topic was about the differences between a Full Deryni and a Half-Deryni. Of course in the books, we rarely see any difference at all. Even the Camberian Council is made to lean in that direction when it came to the Half-Deryni known as Alaric Morgan.

So what is the difference?

Well I can post this, it's gaming related of course, and this didn't make it into DAG, but it was in Jennifer Brinn's original Deryni Fudge Game and DAG is somewhat based on her groundbreaking work on that subject.

� Trace Blood: Somewhere in your background, there's enough Deryni blood that you register a few powers and a little bit of power. It costs no points to be Trace blooded. You gain a Power Attribute at any level you choose, from Terrible to Mediocre.
� Half Breed: You are enough Deryni to show a decent amount of power, but at least one of your parents was not full Deryni. It costs no points to be a Half Deryni. You gain a Power Attribute of Mediocre, and may buy it up if you desire. You may lower it as well, but you gain no points back for doing so.
� Full Blood: Both your parents were Full Blooded Deryni (or close enough to it). You gain a bit of status among other Deryni who care about such things, if they know of your lineage. It costs one Gift level to be Full Deryni. You gain a Power Attribute at Fair, and may buy it up or down as desired for normal costs.

Effects of Power Attribute on Deryni Skills
Power Level and Possible Skills
� Fair: Any Skills may be chosen.
� Mediocre: Shields, Mind Speech, Truth Reading (maybe), Handfire (maybe)
� Poor: Shields, Mind Speech (maybe)
� Terrible: Shields (maybe)
� Abysmal (Below Terrible): No Deryni Skills possible. A Human's effective Power level.

Notes on Power Level Effects
� You may always chose NOT to have any Deryni Skills listed (especially those marked "maybe"), but removing them or lowering them is a character concept related item, and you do not recieve buy-back points.
� Character Concept may always override the rules, if the GM likes it well enough and feels it fits the campaign.

That is what was in the original Fudge rules for Half Deryni vs Full Deryni (and a Trace Deryni)

[Laurna]

I understand the DAG levels as they are set for gaming purposes, but I am not sure I agree with it as canon to the Novels. KK has stated that there are different levels of Deryni abilities and not everyone can learn the level above where they are at. So I can see the levels of Poor, Mediocre, Fair, Good, Trained, Skilled, Ritual, Master... We know that you can not move from one level to the next without training, but we also know that for some students no amount of training will allow them to get to the next level. So family genetics with many modifying genes has something to do with power level.

I tend to think of the Deryni gene as a single gene, you are either Deryni "On" or you are Deryni "Off". However there are many modifying genes that can express how strong your Deryni abilities can be. Example: a human family can carry the Healers gene for generations, but it takes the Deryni "On" gene to make it express it self so that person can become a functional Healer. Being a Blocker is another modifying gene that is rare even in healers but can be carried in non Healers to pass to another generation. In the ability to Blocker Deryniness, the user only has to turn "off" or "Block" one area in the mind to keep the Deryni "On" gene from functioning. And anyone with the Deryni"On" gene will be effected by Merasha, whether they know about it our not. Anyone who only has the "Off" genes or the ON genes are "Blocked" will not be effected by Merasha.

In my opinion:
A Full Deryni "On/On"(both parents are Deryni) has the chance (with training) of gaining to the level of powers as their strongest parent, and maybe even gaining one level higher (because you never know about the grandparents abilities). No matter who a full Deryni marries (human or Deryni) their children will always have Deryni Abilities. (Because KK said the eggs and sperm with Deryni genes are far stronger than the human eggs and sperm and will therefore win out)

A half Deryni person "on/?"(one parent is deryni and one is unknown) will  always have a power level equal to, but likely no higher than, his/her Deryni Parent. The chance of being higher could happen, but it would be rare. The trouble here, as we have seen in the novels, is that training for a Half Deryni becomes a problem. Did they get the training they needed or did they not.
If a half Deryni person has children than they should pass on their level of abilities to their children, but it may not pass on to all of them. So maybe 1 out of 4 children has a chance of not getting that "On" gene.

A Quarter Deryni "On/Off" they would still have at least one "On" gene. It is just that they might have even lower chances of passing the Deryni gene to their children. So lets say only 2 out of 4 kids are Deryni. 

As for humans that have shields- what DAG calls to level POOR-  it is obvious that there are these modifying powers that are carried from generation to generation even among people who do not have the Deryni"On" gene. I think Shields and some truth-reading  and perhaps some other odd miscellaneous skills can become active without the On gene. 

The question is, does Merasha still mess with these abilities in these humans. I would think so. But does it also cause full disruption of the senses like a Deryni or just greater sleepiness. I don't think Kenneth ever took Merasha, for us to find out the consequences.

[Bynw]

Wasn't this already settled?  There's an appendix in the back of High Deryni - on genetics and Deryni-ness; that there's no difference between a Deryni with X'X' vs a Deryni with X'X.  There's no difference in power between the two.  

Given a choice, I would choose to believe the published work, over a game derived from the same.  No?  

DAG is a published work. Licensed and authorized by Katherine Kurtz. As far as any game goes it is Canon as much as anything else. Now of course your stories and adventures had in it aren't Canon.

And actually that whole appendix on Deryni genetics isn't official. KK has said so several times.

Back to the game and why it's important.

Within the context of the game, there has to be a way to know how powerful a Deryni is or potentially is when they are met. This is done with the Power Attribute. A Full Deryni, like any member of the Camberian Council or Torenthi King, has that at Fair (in terms defined by the game) at a default level. But the player of that character can buy it up higher or even lower it.

Also, there are Half Deryni. These would have a Power Attribute of Mediocre, that is one level below Fair. But the player of that character is free to buy up (or lower) that Power Attribute to any level they wish. Including to Fair or even higher.

The other major important bit was: Character Concept may always override the rules, if the GM likes it well enough and feels it fits the campaign.  This is true in stories too. If KK has a character concept, it doesn't matter what her established notions are in the slightest. That character will be whatever she determines that character to be.

[Bynw]

The question is, does Merasha still mess with these abilities in these humans. I would think so. But does it also cause full disruption of the senses like a Deryni or just greater sleepiness. I don't think Kenneth ever took Merasha, for us to find out the consequences.

I still think that merasha would disrupt the abilities of anyone with Deryni like powers. Be they Full Deryni, partial Deryni (of any kind), or a made-Deryni like the majority of the Haldane Kings. And by disrupt I do mean take their powers away from them.

There is a disagreement, even in the novels about Merasha. We know that King Brion was drugged with it but had no debilitating effects. While Kelson was drugged with the same source and had debilitating effects. We are left to wonder why this happened.

[Laurna]

There is a disagreement, even in the novels about Merasha. We know that King Brion was drugged with it but had no debilitating effects. While Kelson was drugged with the same source and had debilitating effects. We are left to wonder why this happened.

This has an easy answer. Kelson has the Deryni "On" gene from his mother. So no matter when he was given Merasha (anytime after birth) he would have full disruption of his senses.

His father is human (No "On" gene. Only Deryni "Off/Off") Therefore his sense are Not disrupted by the Merasha.  But Brion does have his Haldane Powers turned On.Yet he is not effected by the drug.  Therefore the drug only causes full disruption in just the people with the "On" gene.

The drug seems to make using any magic abilities such as shields and defense impossible. It is like a Blocker to any of the many other modifying magic genes one my have on their DNA strands. KK has always said that there are other drugs like sedatives mixed in with Merasha and its wine. So who knows if the sleepiness in humans is from these other things. Or if it is directly from the Merasha.

Brion's experience tells me that the Haldane Power is Not the same as the Deryni "On" gene. There is some other factor that Turns on his abilities. And in the books this other factor is a Ritual combined with Trauma. This is what allows a Haldane to access what ever it is that passes down through that family line that allows them to use strong magic, but they can only use that magic in a time of need and on an deeply instinctual level. I believe that this is how Warren De Gray can Heal when the need is great; we know he is not Deryni (the only answer can be that he is Haldane.)

As for humans that have Second sight. They do not have the Deryni "On" gene so they are not effected by Merasha. however they can carry all those other modifying genes in their DNA makeup. Somehow, something has made at least the basic of those modifying genes functional. There is something else that makes those genes produce RNA and proteins from their DNA strands. Like a Human using his shields, truthreading or scrying for water. Second sight is not the same as Haldane Magic and not caused by the Deryni On gene. Second sight can use the basic abilities when shown or taught how to use them.

It is a complicated world of magic but I love it.

[Bynw]

I'm still in doubt on some parts of this hypothesis. I am in agreement that one is either Deryni or not. Half Deryni is a misnomer. Gaming wise it's a good way to develop a character but it has not other impact. Since even a Trace Deryni could end up with a Power of Fair like a Full Deryni.

But the made-Deryni. Like the majority of the Haldane Kings, and others who have been granted Deryni power through a power ritual. We haven't seen the all. And the practice was known in Torenth as well. Since Bran Coris was human but was given Deryni powers enough that he was chosen to be the 4th member in a duel arcane. These are just like a Deryni. Or anyone in the gaming terms that has a Power Attribute.

I would treat them just like the Deryni by blood. Merasha will impact them. However, I like the write up for Merasha that was in Dragon Magazine #78 back in 1983. Where there are 2 types of doses. One more potent than the other. The one mixed with food or wine will just strip one's powers without much other effect and so subtle that the victim doesn't notice it until going to use those powers.  And then the more potent dose, delivered by injection, like a Deryni pricker. That disrupts the senses.

Now of course this doesn't fully fit the current canon. We've seen it both ways in fact. So why get facts in the way of a good story or drama.

[Laurna]

Since Bran Coris was human but was given Deryni powers enough that he was chosen to be the 4th member in a duel arcane

There is no proof in the novels that Bran Coris had Deryni abilities turned on.
Being a member of the Duel Arcane does not make it so. Wencit believed that Father Duncan and Bishop Arilan were human; he did not have the information to know that a Deryni, let alone two Deryni, had succeeded in being ordained. The novel High Deryni introduced Lionel as human (Wencit's brother-in-law.)The Codex however, has updated Lionel to be of Deryni family but to have powers so poor as to be called human by other Deryni. The King of Torenth went into the duel arcane believing it would be two trained Deryni(he and Rhydon) against two poorly trained Deryni(Kelson and Morgan) the other four combatants were just going to be fodder for the energy drain. Of course Rhydon/not Rhydon had something else to say about it.

The only instance where Bran used any Deryni Ability was when the shiral crystal lite up, but I always believed that it was Wencit who made that happen to convense Bran to join him. If it was Bran who did power the Shiral, than it would have been from Second Sight or from some long past Deryni linage in Bran's ancestry. When Bran went to kidnap his son, it was Wencit who controlled the Portal jump in and out, not Bran. When Rhydon poisoned himself, Wencit, Lionel and Bran. He said the poison he used took longer to take affect on full Deryni. Lionel and Bran succumbed very quickly. Wencit and Rhydon took longer. That poison did not have Merasha in it, so we can not use this instance to determine if second sighted people would react the same as Deryni to the use of Merasha.

I am fully convinced that being an Activated Haldane is not the same as being Deryni. They are too different attributes that use the magic abilities that are available on this world, in very different ways.

[Bynw]

There is no proof in the novels that Bran Coris

It's not in the novels. Other made-Deryni like Bran Coris are hinted at of course even as early as Deryni Rising. But the true is told in Deryni Magic.


...especially in the East, the
potential had begun to be observed in other individuals as well. Among certain eastern
adepti, endowing political allies with quasi-Deryni powers came to be regarded as
relatively commonplace, with the recipients of such power enjoying almost the same
status as born Deryni. Charissa's Lord Ian and Lionel Duke of Arjenol are "made"
Deryni, and Bran Coris likewise has limited Derynilike powers placed upon him.

pages 237-238


and here too:

In conclusion, we must return to the earlier statement that not only Haldanes can
have Deryni powers placed upon them. Charissa bestowed Deryni-like powers on Lord
Ian. Wencit, though perhaps genuinely disappointed that Bran Coris was not himself
Deryni was able to give Bran enough of a semblance of Deryni powers to deem him a
suitable teammate for a fourfold Duel Arcane with Kelson. Not even Lionel's powers are
solely his own, though we may infer from the fact that Lionel married Wencit's sister that
this was no longer deemed a stigma. Certainly Kelson is extremely wary of the ability of
Lionel's younger brother, Mahael, whose powers must also be assumed.

pages 243-244

[Bynw]

[10-06 22:32] <Eris> <Laurna> We have never seen if an empowered human can be blocked. And that would be an interesting test. But we have seen an embowered human given Merasha. Brion was our test subject. and he was not effected by the Merasha in the same way a deryni would be effected. He could not access his powers to defend himself, but he did not experience a full disruption of his senses. That in itself is proof that Deryni and Empowered humans
[10-06 22:32] <Eris> <Laurna> use different mechanisms to access their magic.

I don't think so. A "made-Deryni" is the same as a blood Deryni. The only difference is a blood Deryni will pass on the traits to their children while a "made-Deryni" wont pass on any power, just the potential to be made again.

The effects of Merasha that we have seen Brion vs Kelson were caused by years of a built up world between the 2 books in question and the need of a good literary subplot only. In reality, Merasha would have the same effect on both. And can be reconned into a reason why it didn't impact Brion as much as it did Kelson.

[Nezz]

A "made-Deryni" is the same as a blood Deryni.

I have to question this statement as well. I don't know where to find the reference, but the powers of the made-Deryni seem to spring into existence along with making itself: no study involved. A blood-Deryni has to study and learn to acquire their full powers: this would make a brand-new made-Deryni far more powerful than a blood-Deryni with the purest genealogy but no training.

[Laurna]

I am in the process of reading about Were-Deryni in the book of Deryni Magic. KK lists Haldanes as a subset of humans that learn Deryni magic and she is pretty strong about the fact that the Eye of Rom and the Lion Broach set up a resonance that open the mind to allow the potential for this greater magical knowledge that can be accessed in times of need. An empowered Haldane is a powerful man.

...The potentialized and Empowered Haldane is the match for just about any Deryni, able to wield all of the ceremonial and practical magic of which the first empowers were capable. This is not to say that wisdom, judgment, or experience are conferred along with power, but the tool is available.  if the wielder has the common sense to use it wisely.

pg 243

Then she talks about other Humans who have the potential to be Given Deryni Abilities by first being around Deryni and by having a Deryni mess around in their heads a little bit to make them able to do things: like have shields, form communications, to telepathically control others, and be sensitive to certain aspects of magic. These people are Lord Derry, Lord Ian, Lord Bran Coris, Brothers Lionel and Mahail.
Bynw, after reading Dryni magic, I consed that Bran Coris became a Made-Deryni. KK said so, so I will no longer argue that point. She also reminded me that Lord Sean Derry became one also.

These humans learn some Deryni abilities. Yet I see no instance where these people appear to be all powerful like the Haldanes. If they did, I would imagine that men like Wencit would be very leery of making someone as powerful as himself. So I am going on the premise that humans made-Deryni can have varying levels of powers as to what the Deryni taught them. But these individuals are not in the same category as The Haldane Magic, and magic is not instinctively known to them as it is in the Haldane family line.

I found this note about Merasha:page 248 about Evaine's servant Revan. Revan was considered to be much like Waren de Gray in that his made-powers are stronger than what normal human-made-Deryni powers should be.

"Nor is the working of Revan's new skills affected by merasha, except as the usual sedative effect of the drug in humans would slow him down and eventually put him to sleep, in high-enough does.

"Being neutral to merasha should be the clincher, when they eventually do question what you've been doing," Queron informed Him. "The drug has been a great leveler for centuries, ever since its effect was first noted. Everyone who knows anything at all about Deryni knows that we're universally vulnerable to it. When you don't react, that will be the final confirmation, that, whatever else you are, you aren't some new, insidious kind of Deryni."

If that doesn't prove that Made-Deryni are not effected by Merasha, than I throw my hands up.

[Bynw]

Wow this thread has taken off like fire. Thanks to everyone who has replied to it and those who are thinking about it as well. Never guessed that it would be so popular of a thread.

However, we have gotten into the weeds on it from the original topic ... but they are all interwoven with one another, so I have changed the topic name.

[Laurna]

Generation after Generation, we know, from so many of the novels, that the kings of Torenth and the Festils have underestimated the magic abilities of the Haldanes (They consider them made-deryni men.) Their collective experience is that they can make a human have some Deryni abilities, but that those men that they make will only ever be as strong as they chose to make them or at least as strong as each one is capable of becoming. They just don't seem to realize that the full capabilities of the strongest of all Deryni  seems to suddenly become full knowledge to an Empowered Haldane. The Festils in the opening of the Bastard Prince seem to joke about it and believe that there is no way that Rhys Michael could ever be as powerful as his father, especially given that there are no Deryni in Gwynedd to make him a Made-Deryni and teach him skills up to their level.  Boy were they wrong.
I still believe that Haldane empowerment is an entirely different type of magic from well trained Deryni or it seems from other Made-deryni.

Oh and Bynw, thanks for changing the topic thread, I do agree that I get carried away sometimes. Sorry that I digressed from the original topic.

[Bynw]

It looks like you tried to change the topic too. But it's not sticking so I guess we will just go with it and see what comes up.

[Bynw]

So there seems to be some confusion and questions on what I've previously posted in this tread about Deryni Bloodlines, Deryni Power, Made-Deryni (Empowered Humans), and how each are affected by Merasha and the Blocking Ability.

This post is to sum up those collected thoughts and rephrase them so it should be easier to understand. Other points will have to be circled back on.

1. To be a Deryni, the character must have a Deryni ancestor and be born with Power.

This Power needs to be developed and honed with training. Yes, somethings can be used without training but it maybe "sloppy" or easily counteracted.

Some Deryni may have more raw Power than others.

2. Some humans can be empowered. That is given Power.

These empowered humans come with a full (usually) set of skills and require little to no training in there use. Guidance perhaps, but not training that a regular Deryni goes through over a course of a lifetime of Power use.

3. Anyone with Power can be affected by the Deryni Blocking ability and therefore lose that Power.

4. Anyone with Power can be affected by Merasha and lose that Power.

Anything that we have previously seen that contradicts this statement was written from a drama affect because it was a needed plot point or it made a good story.

There are many ways these contrary points can be retconed and explained away that make sense.

5. A human, someone without Power, is not affected by the Deryni Blocking ability at all.

6. A human, someone without Power, is not affected by Merasha other than the sedative affects it has on those drugged with it.

7. Unexplained events and abilities can and do happen.

Warin de Grey is not Deryni but Heals like one.
Denis Arlian was not affected by Merasha at his Ordination but is Deryni.
The Second Sight is taken for granted in the Border reaches.

That is the summary of what I have already posted.