Alaric's loyalty

[revanne]

Given the circumstances of Alaric's conception and the ritual performed upon him as a small boy how free was Alaric to choose to be loyal to Brion or otherwise?


If he was not free should that be counted as a virtue?


If his loyalty to Brion was compelled did that magically transfer to Kelson on Brion's death or could he have chosen to make another decision at that point?

[Bynw]

Given the circumstances of Alaric's conception and the ritual performed upon him as a small boy how free was Alaric to choose to be loyal to Brion or otherwise?

Alaric's conception is fairly natural. The request of the King was to have a Deryni protector for his son, Brion. The original plan was the King himself would be the actual birth father but it didn't happen that way. Alaric is the true son of the Houses of Morgan and Corwyn. I'm going off of just memory here, the ritual preformed did take away some of Alaric's free-will. The initial bond of friendship between the two boys was magically created. How far deep it goes I don't know without re-reading the story.

But we can also look at motivation. What motivated the King in having this Deryni protector for his son and heir? Simple, the Haldane King knew of the Camberian Council and didn't trust any of them. Thus he needed a Deryni he could trust with his son's life and to be the first Haldane King who's future power ritual would be initiated by someone other than said council.

If he was not free should that be counted as a virtue?

Depends on how deep the compulsion actually went.

If his loyalty to Brion was compelled did that magically transfer to Kelson on Brion's death or could he have chosen to make another decision at that point?

I'm going to say here that no it did not magically transfer to Kelson on Brion's death. With Brion's death Alaric was released from any compulsions that had been set in regards to Brion. Brion didn't have the Deryni knowledge his father had. Even though he has the potential, Brion rarely used it. Kelson was probably generally liked by Alaric and he helped the young prince mainly because he wanted to do so.

That being said, bringing Kelson into his Haldane potential was the work of Brion choosing Alaric for that task. Again bypassing the Camberian Council which had always previously done this duty. We easily see them worm their way back in when Kelson was thought to be dead with Nigel and his son's empowerment rituals. Although Brion wouldn't have the same distrust his father had he was just following his father's example. Alaric was there to bring Brion to power, he should be there to bring Kelson as well. And Alaric may not have had a choice in that. But it depends on just how strong the compulsion really was.

[Nezz]

Oh, what interesting questions you bring up! I guess we don't really know exactly what effect the ritual had on him: Did it compel loyalty to Brion? Did it give him a nudge towards loyalty? Or did it only instruct him on what to do at the proper circumstances and time?

If the ritual compelled him to be loyal towards Brion, then it really can't be counted as a virtue anymore than Derry can be help responsible for trying to kill Morgan later on when he'd been geased. However, Alaric was true to more people than just Brion and Kelson: loyalty seemed to run through his personality. So it's entirely possible—probable, even—that he would have behaved the same way towards the kings he loved. 

You ask a good question about the idea of a transference. Was Donal on the ball enough to make the ritual bind Morgan to just Brion, or to all the Haldane kings? Donal might have assumed that Brion would assign his own son a protector of his own, rather than just give Kelson his father's hand-me-down protector. On the other hand, life was harsh and often short for those people, and Donal had already buried a couple of sons, so it would definitely make sense to bind Morgan to the Haldane line. Again, that assumes the ritual itself was possible to use to bind to more than one person.

Which brings up a new question: Have Kelson and Alaric set up a new protector for Prince Javan? Who do you suppose they would have chosen?

[Shiral]

My initial response is brief because my lunch break is almost over.  The way I see it, Alaric was destined from birth by King Donal to be the one to help Brion achieve his Haldane Power. The actual triggering happened just before Donal's death when Alaric was four. I see it as Alaric having been given the KNOWLEDGE of the ritual Donal had created at that point so he would know what to do. I do think Donal made certain assumptions about both Alaric's availabilty and the ritual itself.  (his power ritual was very elaborate, and he couldn't know everything required would be available when the time came). Since Alaric would be the future Duke of Corwyn, it was logical that he would be very much brought up at court, and would be in close contact with the King as he learned and grew. Perhaps there was some compulsion of loyalty at work, but not necessarily. You don't have to have a close personal friendship with your king, but you do have to swear him fealty, keep your word  etc etc to be considered "a loyal subject." 

         Maybe Donal gave Alaric a little push toward loyalty to his house; or maybe he thought being a Page/Squire/Knight sworn to Haldane service would be sufficient
to make sure Alaric would help Brion when needed. What created a far stronger and more natural bond between Alaric and Brion first and then with Alaric and Kelson was the long personal association. Alaric learned to love and respect his King and Prince (then second King) because of who they were and because of who he is. To be continued!

[DoctorM]

Bethane-- good vision of the issue!

[Shiral]

All right, now that work is over and I'm home, I can continue with this very interesting topic. =o)  Regarding the compelled loyalty issue. As I stated previously, while Donal might have added a little nudge to serve his sons and grandson's faithfully in Alaric's mind, it's equally possible that he did not. He might have looked at Kenneth Morgan and all his years of loyal crown service and figured Kenneth would bring up his son with the same values and pride.

Furthermore, after the scene between Donal, Alyce and Kenneth when they catch him in their bedchamber near the end of In the King's Service (absolutely mortifying for all three parties concerned), possibly Donal wouldn't DARE do anything other than give Alaric the information he'd need to perform the ritual for Brion when the time came. Donal owed BOTH Kenneth and Alyce, and they had still agreed to let their  (then unborn) son serve the Haldanes in an arcane way even after that.  Compelling Alaric's loyalty would have been to risk alienating them both in a way Donald wouldn't want to do, even if he did have the power. It's possible Donal had enough decency and humility in his soul to value them both and not want to lose their good will and freely offered loyalty, damaging his relationship with them both forever.

Let me add I do think Donal was a decent and honorable King regarding the welfare of his kingdom and subjects, but not a man likely to be conscience-stricken over what he felt was necessary for the preservation and protection of his family. Also, he was rather less straight-laced than his grandson. There's no WAY Kelson would ever be found in a courtier's bedchamber thinking to impregnate the man's wife, even at great need. Donal  might also sense  if Alyce discovered any compulsion he set, she would be furious and hurt that the King assumed Alaric needed any compulsion beyond nature and nurture and their teaching to serve the Haldanes faithfully.

As I mentioned in my previous post, Alaric's profound friendship with both Brion and Kelson was likely far more influential in his life and in terms of the loyalty he's given them both than an arcane compulsion left over from his early childhood.  In Deryni Rising, Alaric  mentions that he regarded Brion as a father and a brother, and wants to be a father and brother to Kelson in that same sense. In that way, I felt The King's Deryni fell a little short for me. What I wanted to see in that book was the start of that deep  friendship between Alaric and Brion. I would have liked to see them bond over a game of Cardounet, say. When they each test out one another's strategic sense, and impress one another with what they each know. I felt that the relationship we saw in The King's Deryni didn't quite account for how profound Alaric and Brion's friendship would become by the  time they were both adults.

So let's say for a second that an alternate reality takes place in Quest for Saint Camber. Kelson and Nigel truly ARE dead, and Conall actually becomes King. Alaric is still a very powerful peer in the realm, and Conall the Prince whom he probably never paid that much personal attention to before, is still a Haldane and now his King. I believe Alaric would swear Conall fealty at his coronation, and would mean it as a man of honor. (NOT swearing would only alienate Conall and definitely cause a ruckus at court.)  He would remain on the Privy Council, and serve the Kingdom as always, and be a general in Conall's army if Gwynedd went to war, but certainly wouldn't feel that bond of personal affection as he did with Brion, Kelson and Nigel. Would Conall feel it, and  resent him for it and continue to damage the relationship? Or recognize his need to have the powerful Duke of Corwyn  truly on his side, want Morgan's good opinion, and decide to earn it? It's possible the responsibility of Kingship would force Conall to do some significant and rapid growing up, as it did Kelson. He might grow up, and shape up, now that his chief rival, his cousin, is gone. He'd learn just how hard it IS to be King.  He might grow to become a worthy son of Nigel's. Alaric might even learn to like and even love him in time. I could see either scenario happening.

[DesertRose]

All right, now that work is over and I'm home, I can continue with this very interesting topic. =o)  Regarding the compelled loyalty issue. As I stated previously, while Donal might have added a little nudge to serve his sons and grandson's faithfully in Alaric's mind, it's equally possible that he did not. He might have looked at Kenneth Morgan and all his years of loyal crown service and figured Kenneth would bring up his son with the same values and pride.

Furthermore, after the scene between Donal, Alyce and Kenneth when they catch him in their bedchamber near the end of In the King's Service (absolutely mortifying for all three parties concerned), possibly Donal wouldn't DARE do anything other than give Alaric the information he'd need to perform the ritual for Brion when the time came. Donal owed BOTH Kenneth and Alyce, and they had still agreed to let their  (then unborn) son serve the Haldanes in an arcane way even after that.  Compelling Alaric's loyalty would have been to risk alienating them both in a way Donald wouldn't want to do, even if he did have the power. It's possible Donal had enough decency and humility in his soul to value them both and not want to lose their good will and freely offered loyalty, damaging his relationship with them both forever.

Let me add I do think Donal was a decent and honorable King regarding the welfare of his kingdom and subjects, but not a man likely to be conscience-stricken over what he felt was necessary for the preservation and protection of his family. Also, he was rather less straight-laced than his grandson. There's no WAY Kelson would ever be found in a courtier's bedchamber thinking to impregnate the man's wife, even at great need. Donal  might also sense  if Alyce discovered any compulsion he set, she would be furious and hurt that the King assumed Alaric needed any compulsion beyond nature and nurture and their teaching to serve the Haldanes faithfully.

As I mentioned in my previous post, Alaric's profound friendship with both Brion and Kelson was likely far more influential in his life and in terms of the loyalty he's given them both than an arcane compulsion left over from his early childhood.  In Deryni Rising, Alaric  mentions that he regarded Brion as a father and a brother, and wants to be a father and brother to Kelson in that same sense. In that way, I felt The King's Deryni fell a little short for me. What I wanted to see in that book was the start of that deep  friendship between Alaric and Brion. I would have liked to see them bond over a game of Cardounet, say. When they each test out one another's strategic sense, and impress one another with what they each know. I felt that the relationship we saw in The King's Deryni didn't quite account for how profound Alaric and Brion's friendship would become by the  time they were both adults.

So let's say for a second that an alternate reality takes place in Quest for Saint Camber. Kelson and Nigel truly ARE dead, and Conall actually becomes King. Alaric is still a very powerful peer in the realm, and Conall the Prince whom he probably never paid that much personal attention to before, is still a Haldane and now his King. I believe Alaric would swear Conall fealty at his coronation, and would mean it as a man of honor. (NOT swearing would only alienate Conall and definitely cause a ruckus at court.)  He would remain on the Privy Council, and serve the Kingdom as always, and be a general in Conall's army if Gwynedd went to war, but certainly wouldn't feel that bond of personal affection as he did with Brion, Kelson and Nigel. Would Conall feel it, and  resent him for it and continue to damage the relationship? Or recognize his need to have the powerful Duke of Corwyn  truly on his side, want Morgan's good opinion, and decide to earn it? It's possible the responsibility of Kingship would force Conall to do some significant and rapid growing up, as it did Kelson. He might grow up, and shape up, now that his chief rival, his cousin, is gone. He'd learn just how hard it IS to be King.  He might grow to become a worthy son of Nigel's. Alaric might even learn to like and even love him in time. I could see either scenario happening.

I agree with most of this, except for the last.

Assuming that alternate universe in which Kelson and Dhugal were in fact dead, I think Conall would not have lasted long on the throne.  He assumed Tiercel's memories without ever integrating them, which made him rather unstable mentally, emotionally, and psychically.  I think Conall had the makings of a tyrant, but I think that instability would have killed him, one way or another, before he could do too much damage to Gwynedd.

I do agree that if Conall had remained on the throne, he wouldn't have wanted to alienate Morgan, if for no other reason than that Corwyn and Lendour make up a fairly significant part of Gwyneddan lands, but while Alaric certainly would have sworn and maintained fealty, he wouldn't have been nearly as close to Conall as he had been to Brion and Kelson.

[DesertRose]

And actually on topic, I think that the ceremony with Kenneth, Alyce, and Donal would likely have included a nudge of loyalty, but given Kenneth and Alyce as parents, I don't think Donal would have felt more than a nudge was necessary.

Donal is . . . an interesting character.  I don't like him nearly as much as I like most of the other Haldanes.

The Camberian Council at one point felt that Kelson was not ruthless enough; I think Donal was too ruthless.  I understand that he was a king in a precarious situation, but he was awfully mercenary about conceiving Krispin and then he was going to try again on an unconscious and therefore not-capable-of-consenting Alyce, which is a real jerk move in my book.  I still don't know how Alyce and Kenneth managed not to cold-cock their monarch.  (I mean, decking him would have constituted serious lèse-majesté, but Donal was really out of line there.)

But in any case, Alaric was already conceived so the point was moot.  I don't think Alyce would have permitted too much interference in Alaric's free will, especially given that she and Kenneth intended to rear him to be the King's Champion from his conception.  Donal might have been allowed to nudge, but no more.

And to take it a little further, compulsion by its very nature creates problems; KK went into the concept a bit in Deryni Magic, where she talks about Kelson setting the compulsion of discretion/keeping the king's business private in his pages and squires.  One would assume that there is no reason to suspect boys chosen to serve the royal family of disloyalty; Kelson could simply have asked them to keep their traps shut.  (And for all I know, the pages' and squires' training includes, "Yeah, you're going to hear some weird stuff serving the royals personally; talking about it can get you in a lot of trouble, so just don't.")

A compelled oath is good only as long as the terms of the compulsion remain in place.  An oath freely given is much more likely to be kept as long as necessary, up to and including to the death.

edited to add a word I forgot and fix a formatting mistake.  I really should not try to write this sort of thing late at night when I'm sleepy, LOL

[DerynifanK]

I agree with much of what has been said, but I remember how long and deeply Alaric grieved for Brion.  He went to court at the age of nine shortly after his father's death. He grew up with Brion and I see their relationship as very like that of dearly loved  brothers. I too would have liked to see more of the development of that relationship in TKD. He also loved Kelson with equal devotion. I agree that what Alaric received from Donal was the knowledge he needed to activate the Haldane potential in Brion. I think that there must have also been a trigger to tell Alaric when it was time for the ritual to occur. But I don't think there was any need for compulsion to loyalty, not with Alyce and Kenneth for parents, it would have been taught and ingrained in their son from birth. I think Alaric's love and loyalty was freely given to both Brion and Kelson because they were honorable men who put their kingdom before their own interests and were completely trustworthy. Gotta go keep appointment. More later

[Laurna]

As I mentioned in my previous post, Alaric's profound friendship with both Brion and Kelson was likely far more influential in his life and in terms of the loyalty he's given them both than an arcane compulsion left over from his early childhood.  In Deryni Rising, Alaric  mentions that he regarded Brion as a father and a brother, and wants to be a father and brother to Kelson in that same sense. In that way, I felt The King's Deryni fell a little short for me. What I wanted to see in that book was the start of that deep  friendship between Alaric and Brion. I would have liked to see them bond over a game of Cardounet, say. When they each test out one another's strategic sense, and impress one another with what they each know. I felt that the relationship we saw in The King's Deryni didn't quite account for how profound Alaric and Brion's friendship would become by the  time they were both adults.

Shiral, if anyone can write such a scene it would be you. I would love to read it. Remember Alaric and Brion spent a month or more simply vacationing in Lendour. There is  a lot of freedom there for mischief and bonding. Maybe a hunt in the woods doesn't go well and Brion needs to be saved by Alaric's Beast Calling gift to call off a Boar or a bear. and then a few evenings of cardounet to recover from the hunt. 

As to Alaric being compelled to be loyal to any Haldane king, I think we have proof that this type of compelling did NOT happen. When Conal became king, Alaric did not stay at Conal's side to guide him in his early kingship. I believe Alaric grudgingly did the ritual for Conal and then he excused himself from the court of the new king and went back out into the field to find the missing bodies of his friends. He did not  blindly follow Conal. So no compulsion to follow any Haldane who found himself on the thrown.

For me this also translates that there is No compulsion to follow the son of Brion. Alaric's loyalty to Kelson is Real.

I am with Shiral, that Donal would not have placed a blind loyal compulsion on Alaric for Brion either. Donal only needed  to be certain a Deryni performed the ritual to bring his son to his powers. After that he would have considered the new Haldane King (one of his sons, Brion or Nigel) would be powerful enough to defend himself in the ways of magic. He had certainly proved that to himself when he defeated Seif MacAthan. So in my mind Donal's Ritual included How to bring Brion to his potential, and to made sure Alaric was at Brion's side (or Nigel's side if it fell that way) when that time came.   Alaric did not blindly follow Brion everywhere, he came and went from court while he was growing up. I mean, he was in Cassan when he tumbled down a hill and broke his arm.

I think a loyalty compulsion would have caused a blindspot in Alaric's character and we do not EVER see that. What we see is true friendship and caring.

[DerynifanK]

Alaric's fall from the tree in Cassan occurred before his father's death and before he went to court to serve as a page. He was still living in Cassan with Jared and Vera. I too would like to see more of the development of the bond between Brion ad Alaric as boys, maybe something similar to what occurred between Kelson and Dhugal beginning in Dhugal at Court, a short story by Melissa found in Deryni Tales

[Shiral]

Donal is . . . an interesting character.  I don't like him nearly as much as I like most of the other Haldanes.

The Camberian Council at one point felt that Kelson was not ruthless enough; I think Donal was too ruthless.  I understand that he was a king in a precarious situation, but he was awfully mercenary about conceiving Krispin and then he was going to try again on an unconscious and therefore not-capable-of-consenting Alyce, which is a real jerk move in my book.  I still don't know how Alyce and Kenneth managed not to cold-cock their monarch.  (I mean, decking him would have constituted serious lèse-majesté, but Donal was really out of line there.)

DR, I certainly agree that Donal was WAAAY out of line in that instance. And he deserved a far worse outcome than he got!   I do think in realistic terms that medieval kings  probably had more ruthless characters than Kelson does.  But there are far better ways that Donal could have handled his need to have a Deryni ally to bring Brion or Nigel to power after Krispin's death than the way he did. Such as calling Kenneth and Alyce  in for an extremely confidential talk, tell them about Krispin's true importance to him, and then asking if they are willing to have their future son assume the role that was originally destined for Krispin. I'll bet Kenneth and Alyce would have agreed to that, despite the risk and he wouldn't have had any cause to fear alienating them in the process, which I'm sure he did not want to do.  He would have kept his honor intact, certainly. 

As to the point of Conall; yes, Alaric does leave. I think in that case he and Duncan had to satisfy their need to either find Kelson and Dhugal, or to confirm the two were in fact, dead, and mourn them appropriately. I think they may have assumed Conall didn't want them because of their long association with Kelson but Bishop Arilan does argue with them on that:

"You're wrong about Conall not needing you, though, you know.....Oh, right now in the first flush of being the Haldane and preoccupied by his father's declining condition, he's even less gracious than his usual wont. But I'm extremely hopeful that he'll be making some changes for the better. He's getting married you know, and a good woman can do a great deal to smooth out the rough edges, I'm told." Quest for Saint Camber: PP299-300

Katherine herself talks about  Conall's having taken Tiercel's memories in Deryni Magic and speculates that Conall  just wanted Tiercel's knowledge, but did not want to impersonate Tiercel himself in the way that Camber impersonated Alister Cullen, or the way Stefan Coram impersonated Rhydon of Eastmarch. The need to integrate Tiercel's memories was therefore not as urgent.  But down the line, failure to integrate those memories might have taken more and more of a toll on Conall's mental stability.

So: Scenario I: Conall lives, marries Rothana and they secure the Haldane succession. Let's say her influence is very good for his overall character, and Alaric becomes fond of little Prince Albin, even if he's not best friends with Conall. With time, Conall matures, learns the same lessons of Kingship that Kelson did, and is able to earn Alaric's genuine loyalty, and perhaps a form of affection and approval from him, even if things between the two of them are never on the same footing as they were with Kelson. Possibly Alaric has a higher opinion of Rothana for her good influence on Conall and respects her in her own right as Queen of Gwynedd. As a result, he is able to serve King Conall honestly.

Scenario II: Conall's personality DOES destabilize, perhaps his role in Nigel's illness and eventual death is discovered. Maybe he inadvertently reveals more of himself to Rothana than is wise and she realizes he came to the throne dishonorably. She  is horrified and appeals to Meraude and  to Alaric and Duncan for help when they return from searching for Kelson and Dhugal and confirming their deaths. Conall's crimes are made public and he dies, or is somehow dethroned,  (More likely dies, since he's not about to give up his power willingly.)
   
So, now Gwynedd has King Rory.  EVERYONE seems to like Rory better than they do Conall. Kelson certainly gets on with him better than he ever did with Conall. He must also have a pretty high opinion of Rory's intelligence and potential or he wouldn't have made him Duke of Ratharkin and  Viceroy of Meara upon his marriage with Rory being just over 18 at that time. But, in Scenario 2, Rory is a middle son, just of age, and while educated, has never been prepared to assume the  Kingship. He is however innocent of any crimes, either of attempted patricide, or  of usurping powers or thrones to which he wasn't entitled. He's not power-hungry or jealous. Say Rory shows himself to be brave and game to face the huge challenge of growing into the Kingship and doing his best since it has fallen in his lap. His attitude wins Alaric and Duncan's personal approval, and they willingly give him all the considerable help that they can. Starting with setting the Haldane potential in him, and definitely standing by him and advising him in statecraft, as well. I could see Alaric becoming a good and loyal friend to King Rory Haldane.

[DesertRose]

But Alaric leaves the court after Conall is (at least effectively) King because neither he nor Duncan believe that Kelson and Dhugal are dead (because in canon, they aren't); if Kelson and Dhugal had in fact been killed, I think Alaric's and Duncan's reactions would have been different.  Given that all four of them are Deryni and they're all emotionally close to each other, I think that, while Alaric and Duncan would obviously both be grieving hard, they would know that Kelson and Dhugal were gone from mortal life.

And in that case, Alaric might have stayed at court.

Also, Rothana conceived Albin almost on her wedding night, so likely Rory would be Prince Regent for his infant nephew, not King unless something happened to Albin*.  That said, this Regency Council would include (in addition to Rory and Rothana) Alaric, Duncan, Nigel, and Arilan, so it would be a much more just and kind regency than the last time Gwynedd had a long regency.

*I don't see Albin meeting a nefarious demise, but childhood diseases and accidents happen; that's why so many families of property were so keen on having an heir and at least one spare.

[revanne]

Really interesting points which raise many more questions. However I am very ready to be convinced that Alaric's loyalty was not compelled - the thought that it was which I couldn't quite shake off left a nasty taste. But it seems much more likely that Alyce would not have agreed to any such thing.


As others have said we don't really see the relationship between Alaric and Brion develop in TKD but I think we do get a good glimpse of it in KK's short story " The knighting of Derry" where the two are obviously very comfortable together.



Donal is not likeable but I do think he was in an impossible position and desperate to protect the Haldane line and in the immediate future, his heir. There is an ever present threat from "The king over the water" ( or at least the river) and at best an uneasy peace with Torenth. And if the Camberian Council of two generations later are a guide, their attitude towards Haldanes is fairly ambiguous.


Answering my own question, I think it is abundantly clear that Alaric serves Kelson out of love - even when he is acting less than wisely as on occasions in the Mearan campaign - so the question of compulsion is in a sense irrelevant.I t would be interesting to know where Alaric's loyalties would have lain if Conall had remained king, but acted in a way that threatened the security of Gwynedd.


I'm not sure that Prince Javan would have needed a Deryni protector in the same sense, given that as Kelson's reign becomes established Javan will grow up in an era where he will be free to develop his own powers, from both his Deryni heritage and the Haldane potential.

[Laurna]

I'm not sure that Prince Javan would have needed a Deryni protector in the same sense, given that as Kelson's reign becomes established Javan will grow up in an era where he will be free to develop his own powers, from both his Deryni heritage and the Haldane potential.

Now that is interesting. Now that it is proven that more than one Haldane can hold the power, not just the crowned king, does the king himself become the one to perform the ritual for his son to gain his potential; before he dies. It might be that a Deryni protector might not ever be needed again. With the exception of early death of the king before his heir is old enough to gain that power. No one but the king and his heir will ever know how the potential comes into being. Alaric may well be the last non-Haldane to bestow the power on a king. From here on froward in the future the current king will chose which son he loves best to be his successor and bestow the power on that son who would then be stronger than any contenders. The Festils can give up trying to catch a Haldane before he is crowned.

The concern here of course is greed. Does the heir who now has the Haldane power equal to his sire get impatient with his sire living too long and then challenge him for the crown. Hopefully not. However medieval history does show where uncles and cousins and even sons have used their own might to oust the man on the thrown.