Technology

[DoctorM]

Question...

I've always thought of the Kelson-era books as looking c.1350-1400--- a bit more than 200 years after the story dates. Which brings up a couple of thoughts...

The Camber-era books are set in a time when Deryni skills and powers are openly used. What effect did that have on "daily" technology. Was, say, building technology more advanced c. 900 in-universe? Is technology level ever mentioned in the books? I recall Bran Coris having a spyglass in 1120/21 (which would be an item dated later than the story year or the "apparent" technological period).

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

[DesertRose]

The technology (and fashion--Laurna can tell you more than I can about fashion history) of the Eleven Kingdoms seems to be a good few centuries more advanced than the real-world in the same numeric year.

I would imagine that a lot of the things that Deryni can do would make some technological advances less necessary.  But maybe some enterprising humans might try to figure out technology to make it possible for non-Deryni to do some Deryni things.

Evie's story Balance of Power has some interesting theories along those lines (it's set in roughly the present day in Gwynedd), but it's novel-length so it'll take a bit to read.  Totally worth the time, of course, but not a quick read.

[DoctorM]

DesertRose--- Thank you! I'll have to track that down and take a look!

[Laurna]

When you talk about medieval technology, I presume we are talking about building things and creating things.

I think that Kelson's architecture is advanced for 1100 England. Kelson's Gywnedd has multiple large cathedrals, fortresses, and castles. Many of which are already 2-300 years old. Most seem to have been built during the Festilic years. The exception would be the All-Saints Cathedral which had been built in Valoret in the year 650 to dedicate Saint Bearand I, the first Haldane king. In Camber's years we see Imer bankrupting the kingdom to build a huge cathedral and palace in Nyford. I do not know if that work every got finished, we know it was finished enough 200 years later for Loris to be living in it at Nyford.

If we look at English history, we know that before 1100 most of England was living in Motte and Bailey keeps. 1066 and the following centuries brought about a big change in architecture .

Wikipeadia tells us: "The Castles and Town Walls of King Edward in Gwynedd is a UNESCO-designated World Heritage Site located in Gwynedd, Wales. It includes the castles of Beaumaris and Harlech and the castles and town walls of Caernarfon and Conwy. UNESCO considers the sites to be the "finest examples of late 13th century and early 14th century military architecture in Europe". "The fortifications were built by Edward I after his invasion of North Wales in 1282."

The way I see it, what Gwynedd Wales had in 1300 is what Kelson's Gwynedd had already had for a century or more. So that technology was definitely advanced.

If we are talking about sailing vessels, then yes, I agree the eleven kingdoms has sloop like vessels, low to the water line with sails that can head into the wind. I think of the Raphelia as being a head of its time. I can not remember just now if Raphelia had two masts, but I thought that it did.  In our earth two masted vessels that held more than one sail was not seen until after 1200's. The Raphelia still used man power at the oars so that is not out of date.

Morgan's cloths described at length is Deryni Rising is more 1300's with  shirt, breeches, and a slashed sleeved doublet, ( I love that description by the way). I admit latter in the series, KK changes the doublet back to a tunic which is really what the men  should be wearing. But you can not loose the doublet once it is stated. The wealthiest, handsomest man in Gwynedd can wear cloths that are advanced for his time. if you ask me.

Another advance noted is the carriage that Richenda is in when first we see her. I don't think private carriages came around until after 1400's.

But you know, all of these things make for a fantastic world. A little advanced for our own world, but that does not matter. This is the world of Deryni, where men can pass on ideas in a second  and individuals can travel in 3 heart beats across long distances. Innovation moves faster. The riches of one part of the world can be shared with other parts of the world more quickly. I love the whole world building that has brought us the Eleven Kingdoms.

[drakensis]

It's plausible to think of the Festil invasion as something equivalent to the Norman Conquest, leading to the Deryni Lords spending a century building castles and the like to use as strongholds to maintain control of their kingdom.

So at least in that respect, Kelson's era would be equivalent around the mid-13th century, with castles comparable to the Hundred Years War.

[DoctorM]

Hmmm... What about printing? I can't recall whether documents are all done in scriptoria in Kelson's time or whether there are the beginnings of printing--- maybe woodblock? Doesn't Warin de Grey use broadsheets of some kind to disseminate his propaganda in DR and DC?  In my Two Kingdoms AU, I want to have Duncan authoring attacks on Charissa's regime, but...broadsheets or posters would require a lot of scribes...

[Laurna]

In the novel "In the King's Service" Alice, Vera, and Zoe accomplish the artwork for an illuminated manuscript for King Donal. I think it takes them two years.
I do not think there is any reference to block printing; at least none that I can recall. The secretaries for the high ranking church officials rewrite all correspondence or have scribes write them out by hand.
The only technology I see in the novels, is magic. Deryni can set whole ideas or descriptions in a seal on the parchment. I presume that each seal would have to be made individually. No mass production that I am aware of.

[DoctorM]

Aha! Thanks!

[DesertRose]

In the novel "In the King's Service" Alice, Vera, and Zoe accomplish the artwork for an illuminated manuscript for King Donal. I think it takes them two years.
I do not think there is any reference to block printing; at least none that I can recall. The secretaries for the high ranking church officials rewrite all correspondence or have scribes write them out by hand.
The only technology I see in the novels, is magic. Deryni can set whole ideas or descriptions in a seal on the parchment. I presume that each seal would have to be made individually. No mass production that I am aware of.

Re: seals, I'm guessing that the communication is actually set into the wax, because the seal itself would be a ring or some other metal object (which might itself be attuned to the owner/wearer, but that's a bit of a tangent).

This is my seal; it's brass and needs cleaning, but I just wanted to snap a quick picture.

https://imgur.com/a/RcSbqJJ

[Laurna]

Thank you DR for the correction.
I love that seal. Is that a rose? Neat piece.

[DesertRose]

Thank you DR for the correction.
I love that seal. Is that a rose? Neat piece.

It's confusing (because English needs to go home; it's drunk!    ), because "seal" can refer to the (usually) metal ring or whatever that makes the imprint, or it can refer to the imprint itself (the wax).

Thank you!  Yes, it's a rose. I've had it for ages; I think I bought it in a Wicks 'N' Sticks in the mall when I was a teenager. 

[Laurna]

It's plausible to think of the Festil invasion as something equivalent to the Norman Conquest, leading to the Deryni Lords spending a century building castles and the like to use as strongholds to maintain control of their kingdom.

So at least in that respect, Kelson's era would be equivalent around the mid-13th century, with castles comparable to the Hundred Years War.

Drakensis, I like your idea that the Festil invasion was much like the Norman Conquest, leading to the building of multiple strongholds. The Torenthi were likely setting them selves up above and separate from the humans of the land. I did read that the castle at Lendour was built by the first Festil king for his eldest son from the stolen wealth of the Haldane treasures. I can see many nobles of the kingdom doing the same. So this would be during the 800's which is the perfect timing for most technology to be about 200-300 years in advance.

[revanne]

The issue of printing could be raised with Katherine in our Zoom chat next week.

Maybe there is a way that you could introduce it anyway given that your story is AU  - just because something isn't in the books doesn't IMHO mean that it can't be in a story, providing that it is in keeping. (No Zoom chats or computer generated images for example). Maybe Duncan is in touch with the Knights of the Anvil, for example, who clearly have powers that are only hinted at if Sir Se is anything to go by.

And who knows what civilisations lurk off the edge of the maps...

[DoctorM]

Excellent idea, Revanne!

[DoctorM]

I'm thinking about something else, too...

In "Season of the Sword", I had characters using what I called "tiles" for both gambling and fortune-telling--- small rectangles of black and white unknown material that were derived, as the legend goes, from the faces of warding cubes. I'd like to go to something not unlike Tarot for the 1120s. Memory says that Tarot cards appeared sometime in the mid-to-late 1300s, brought up out of Mamluk country (Egypt and the Levant) into northern Italy-- first for gambling, then for fortune-telling.  Has anyone else in the fanfic world used Tarot cards? Given the affinity of 1100s in the canon to the 1300s in the historical world, I feel safe on using them. Any thoughts on that?

Note: I use the David Palladini "Aquarian" Tarot on my own. I love the Art Nouveau style and I love the colours. When I was 12 or so, I had a couple of posters by Palladini that I later saw used in his Tarot deck. One I think became the Knight of Swords. Anyway--- lovely, lovely cards.

And if you don't know them, Brian Eno's "Oblique Strategies" cards are great decision aids.