Long ago, there was an issue of Deryni Archives that had the correct heraldic descriptions for the coats of arms of the major Eleven Kingdoms houses. I'm afraid that my old paper copies of the Archives have vanished in the course of lots of moves. So...does any kind person out there over the aether know the correct heraldic language for the Tolan and Marluk arms? Many thanks!
Deryni Archives vol 2. page 6
Quote"Duchy of Tolan (Charissa of Festil):
Ermine, two lion's jambes Gules,
clawed Or, in chief dancetty Gules,
a jewelled coronet, or. "
"The arms of Talon are exceedingly ancient, although fairly complicated, and represent the entire far north area of the great Torenthi plain. A Deryni mage named Tolan was one of the ancestors of the first Festil who deposed King Ifor Haldane. the Festillic arms, as used by Imre et al., are of an originally cadet branch of the Tolan line, though by the time of St. Camber, there is no doubt that the Festillic line was the more powerful."
There is a drawing of this shield on the cover. If you need it I can scan it in the morning.
I do not see a listing for the Marluk in this issue.
There is the Duchy of Arjenol (Lionel): "Per pale, Or and Argent, three crescents counterchanged. "
I don't see anything in the Codex about Marluk coat of arms.
Although I did find, to my surprise, that Charissa had two elder half-brothers (Zimarek Count of Tarkhan and Mikael Count of Sankt-Irakli) and two elder half-sisters by her father's first (and later annulled) marriage. The four of them were legitimised without succession rights, and both brothers and one sister were presumably alive by 1130 since only one is noted as deceased. Potential supporters for Charissa's cause if anyone needs them.
Laurna--- thank you very much for the heraldry info! That's very much appreciated!
Hmmm... any idea where Tarkhan and Sankt-Irakli are?
Quote from: drakensis on August 25, 2019, 05:13:34 AM
I don't see anything in the Codex about Marluk coat of arms.
Although I did find, to my surprise, that Charissa had two elder half-brothers (Zimarek Count of Tarkhan and Mikael Count of Sankt-Irakli) and two elder half-sisters by her father's first (and later annulled) marriage. The four of them were legitimised without succession rights, and both brothers and one sister were presumably alive by 1130 since only one is noted as deceased. Potential supporters for Charissa's cause if anyone needs them.
On the very last page of the Codex the map names Sankt-Poltan in the upper right of the page. I presume that Sankt would be the Eastern spelling for Saint. Therefore I will surmise that Sankt-Irakli would be some where in the northern portion of the far eastern part of the eleven Kingdoms.
Cool. Works for me!
Thanks!
Quote from: Laurna on July 12, 2020, 11:55:51 AM
On the very last page of the Codex the map names Sankt-Poltan in the upper right of the page. I presume that Sankt would be the Eastern spelling for Saint. Therefore I will surmise that Sankt-Irakli would be some where in the northern portion of the far eastern part of the eleven Kingdoms.
It just struck me that there's a Sankt Polten in Austria--- I think I've been there!
Quote from: Laurna on July 12, 2020, 11:55:51 AM
On the very last page of the Codex the map names Sankt-Poltan in the upper right of the page. I presume that Sankt would be the Eastern spelling for Saint. Therefore I will surmise that Sankt-Irakli would be some where in the northern portion of the far eastern part of the eleven Kingdoms.
I'm remembering the arms of R'Kassi as centered on a winged horse, a Pegasus. I remember years and years ago reading that R'Kassi down in the deserts had a culture much like the Vandals in North Africa, originally "Germanic" but migrating to create a desert kingdom. I'd always had Christian de Falkenberg in my AU stories say that the family name was once R'Kassan, and that they'd never changed it to something like Montfaucon even after coming to Gwynedd. I'm seeing things from the Codex now that say that the culture in R'Kassi was always closer to Moorish. Hmmmm... any thoughts from anyone out there over the aether?
Here's a thought: In our world the Vandals came under the influence of Christianity but there is nothing to say that in the Deryniverse they could not have been influenced by Islam. Still of "Germanic" stock but Moorish in culture. There is something of a real world parallel in Bosnia where the population is ethnically European but have been Muslim for over 4 centuries. I found it a helpful jolt to my own prejudices to watch a programme about Bosnia (actually a fascinating one about how the library in Sarajevo was saved during the siege ofthe mid 1990s, but I digress).
Excellent thought, Revanne!
This is my personal take on R'Kassi .
I always thought of the R'Kassan Stallion as an Andalusian which is a pure Spanish horse and/or a Lusitano which is a Portuguese horse. Andalusian's and Lusitanos are fighting war horses that can be smartly trained and are very flashy in their looks. The horse of kings. In contrast the Arabian horses of the desert are smaller and faster but they would not be the strong warhorses that we see Alaric and King Brion riding. As much as I would like to think of R'kassan as being a Friesian horse, I know that back then, the Friesain was merely a cart/carriage horse. Our Deryni stories are not yet wearing plate mail armor, therefore they do not need to heavy Germanic horses to hold them up in battle. Our characters are just wearing chain mail, thus the Andalusian is the perfect mix of strength, agility, and intelligence.
(Personal note, Lendour is per Germanic. So if they were breeding the R'kassan (Andalusian) with the stout Germanic mountain breeds, Lendour just might easily get the Friesian like horse that I like to think my beloved Washburn rides, at least in my fan-ficitional point of view. LOL but I digress.)
This description of the horse type in the novels, and knowing that R'Kassan is Muslim with Moorish culture, this leads me to think of the Moorish background of R'Kassan as that of the Moors who came to Spain. Just west of R'kassi is the kingdom of Andelon, which is where Richenda and Sofiana(CC member) are from, I think of this kingdom as old Spain and Nur Hullay, where Rothana is from, I consider more Portuguese.
What is interesting to note from the codex, is while it seems that the kingdoms: Andelon, Nur hallay, Thuria, Vezaire, Joux, and Tralia, appear to have generations of Deryni in their royal blood lines. The nomadic people of the Kingdom of R'Kassi were thought to have been human until the time of Gywnedd's Harrowing 918, and the Deryni from Camber's time escaping south into the desert changed that. This is when the old R'Kassian family of the house of Rhupen comes to an end and someone marries a surviving daughter forming the House of Al -Muttalib. Al-Muttalib are Deryni.
I do not know if my thoughts align with KK's original ideas of R'Kassi, but this is how I think of it.
Laurna--- I've always used Portuguese to stand in for whatever is spoken in the Forcinn, with Bremagne using French with a touch of Breton. I think I want to write something set in Autun or Andelon. I'm always fascinated by steppe and Eastern cultures, but I like the idea of high desert cultures as well. And I'm a major fan of Portugal.
Arabians are beautiful horses and a delight to ride, though they are skittish and I am a bit large for many of them. My horseback days were mostly on large-ish thoroughbreds--- a breed I've always gotten along with. I've never been on an Andalusian, though I'd like to try.
Comparisons to our Earth's middle ages and the eleven kingdom's middle ages is an interesting puzzle.
Is the Southern sea, like the Mediterranean or is it like the English channel? or is it nothing like either at all.
For a while I had wondered if Tralia was Greek or more Italian? In the codex, the Byzantyun Empire controlled most of the coast lines of the Southern Sea. 5th Century AD the Byzantyun Empire began to disintegrate. Gwynedd was first abandoned and local chieftains declared independence in 408 (this is just the province area of Haldane and the beginning of the Haldane reign). Bremagne became its own Kingdom around 555. I agree that I think of Bremagne has french influence. Then rapidly each small province going eastward along the coast gained a semblance of independence from Byzantyun. Mooryn(Corwyn and Carthmoore) became a strong Deryni kingdom from around 486, only to be broken apart in 826 when a Festil married the king of Mooryn's only surviving daughter. In the year 500, at the mouth of the twin rivers, a Ruman trader named Horatius named himself Orsalis and thus began the Horts of Orsal. The Forcinn Buffer States are "nominally under the lordshop of the Hort of Orsal" Thus I think of the principalities on the southern sea coast line as a mix of Italian city states. Somehow, as these Forcinn Buffer States boarder onto the deserts in the south/east, they mix in the Spanish and Portuguese with Moorish influence. The anvil of the lord is a sort of Egyptian influence. Beldour seems Turkish to me. East of Tralia being more Middle eastern. Other people may have a completely different interpretation.
It does make one wonder just how much of the whole planet that the eleven kingdom's covers. Being that this is before the great explorations, I suspect that the eleven kingdoms is a much smaller region than we tend to think of when looking at our map of Europe.
*******
As for horses, I have never ridden an Andalusian, either. I do own three Friesian Sport-horses(Friesian /Thoroughbred crossbreeds) I love them, they are amazing animals. I know the modern Friesian was a mix of an old Dutch riding/working horse that was crossed with Andalusian's around the 14-1600's. So I still believe the R'Kassi Stallion is equivalent to an Andalusian. And warm-blood horses would come to the Gywnedd when people start breeding their R'Kassi elite stallions to the local horses of Gywenedd. We might even see some warm blood type horses in Kelson's time.
DoctorM, do please continue to write for us. I would love more stories about the lands around the Southern Sea. I would love to hear your take on this subject.
Laurna---
I think I've always thought of the Eleven Kingdoms as filling up the space of Western Europe, with the Southern Sea standing in for both the Channel and the Mediterranean. Byzantyun seems like something ghostly out east-of-east, though I've always thought that riding east out of Torenth would be like crossing into the Russian steppe and Central Asia. I always saw Fianna and the Forcinn as looking a bit Mediterranean compared to Gwynedd--- city states and wine country. Aurelian of course comes from a city on canals...though that may be in Autun.
The ruling family in Orsal country is the house of Horthy, which makes me grin, since I immediately think of Admiral Miklos Horthy, the regent of Hungary between the two world wars. He'd been the last commander of the Habsburg Monarchy's fleet in WW1, and he ended up as "an admiral without a fleet in a kingdom without a king".
I like the idea of writing more set in the southern states. After all, Christian and Aurelian have those life peerages in southern Bremagne, and I expect Christian's wife would like to see those upgraded to hereditary status...if only to show that she can influence Bremagne, which is a Haldane ally. And Christian has spent at least some time in the Moorish lands.
Best horseback memory--- once I took a horseback winery tour in Hungary. Vineyard to vineyard in the saddle. Fortunately, the horses knew the way. Very well-trained horses.
I will be sitting down soon to do a new story. I'm definitely going to make time for that. And...thank you for the encouragement. Merci!
Drawing parallels between our world's geography and that of the XI Kingdoms is...a little problematic, at least when you think in terms of climate and topography. If you think of Gwynedd as a parallel Britain, there is no real analagous "Europe" that accounts for the great climate change between the cold/rainy/snowy English climate and the heat and dryness of R'Kassi, the Anvil of the Lord, which is presumably a parallel Arabian Peninsula. The Southern Sea between Gwynedd and the Forcinn is not terribly wide at the eastern end where it becomes an estuary near the Corwyn/Torenth Southern Border.
However, I think of Cassan and Kheldour as parallels for Scotland with corresponding colder, wetter climates. Meara I think of as a kind of cultural blend of Scotland and Wales. The Welsh influence would be more pronounced further South in Howicce and Llannedd. But I don't really have much of an impression of Howicce and Llannedd since very little action in the books has actually taken place, there. Across the Southern Sea, I think of Bremagne as a kind of blend of France and Spain. French language, but in religious terms, more like Spain. Perhaps the present King of Bremagne is a more forward thinking monarch in terms of not persecuting Deryni, but in the books, Jehana takes her childhood lessons that Deryni are evil very much to heart.
I think of the Forcinn States between Bremange and Tralia as kind of a patch work of France, if France had been many small kingdoms and principalities rather than one larger one. Perhaps Tralia would be kind of an amalgam of France Italy and Greece. Torenth clearly is a stand-in for Eastern Europe, the most identifiable ones being Hungary, Germany (Maybe Poland) and Ukraine. (I picture the Duchy of Arjenol as having a very Ukrainian culture.)
The Eastern and Southern Forcinn would be similar to our Middle East and Arabian/African cultures. But Katherine might well dispute my impressions
Melissa
Yes--- the Eleven Kingdoms aren't easily mapped on to Europe. I've always assigned cultures and languages to them based on odds and ends (Fianna is wine country, and so a bit Provencal; the Connait is the far west of Ireland). It's easy to assign Torenth and its associated states as eastern Europe/Russia, and to assign things eastwards from there as steppe culture. I suppose the shape of the Bremagni coastline makes me think of NW France and Brittany, and the idea of lots of small city-states in the Forcinn makes me think of Italy (or the Low Countries, a bit). The Anvil of the Lord I always see as something like the Sahara, but we've no sense of how big it is or what lies beyond it to the south. I've always thought of it as part of a quasi-Islamic world, amirates and kingdoms that probe into Bremagne and Autun sometimes, but also trade with them.
I like the wide array of cultures in the XI. Kingdoms, though it is a problem to see them in what could be a fairly small space. And I like it that KK has left room to fill up the blanks in our knowledge.
Quote from: DoctorM on July 18, 2020, 05:03:03 PM
Laurna---
I think I've always thought of the Eleven Kingdoms as filling up the space of Western Europe, with the Southern Sea standing in for both the Channel and the Mediterranean.
Gee, you see the Eleven Kingdoms as much bigger than I always have. Early on I heard (read?) something that drew a parallel between Gwynned and our Wales, so I just assumed when looking at the maps in the books (back in the 1980's, when first I read them) that the southern sea was the equivalent of the Bristol Channel, and it never occurred to me to re-consider that assumption till this conversation.
Just putting in my tuppence worth.
I have always imagined Bremagne as a sort of equivalent to France/Spain. The Anvil of the Lord and R'Khassi having northern African similarities, and Torenth eastern Europe/ Russia. Politically the host of smaller states is an amalgam of the low countries and pre-unification Italy.
Within the eleven kingdoms, Kheldour and Cassan seem Scottish, whereas I have always thought of Meara as Irish, largely because of the political issues there bearing in mind that much of the first half of my life had the Troubles as an ever present backdrop. So I may well have made an unwarranted assumption there.
Howicce and Llannedd seem Welsh, purely because of the name of the latter, although politically the truer analogy to Wales in real world history would probably be Mooryn.
Gwynedd seems to me from KK's descriptions to have more of the climate of northern France, which can be cold, and wet and certainly the summers seem to be warmer than used to be usual in Britain. So perhaps we need to imagine the latitude as shifting 10 degrees or so south, especially since without the gulf stream the climate of Britain in real world latitude should be more akin to that of Labrador. ( Keep it coming across the pond, folks).
One day, Revanne, I must learn more medieval Irish history, say from c. 1100 to c. 1500. So much happening there-- Normans and Scots both showing up (Robt. the Bruce's younger brother decided that if Bob could be a king, so could he, and went off to Ireland to try), and Connaught and the West always seemed mysterious and intriguing to me.
Quote from: DoctorM on July 20, 2020, 07:08:45 PM
One day, Revanne, I must learn more medieval Irish history, say from c. 1100 to c. 1500. So much happening there-- Normans and Scots both showing up (Robt. the Bruce's younger brother decided that if Bob could be a king, so could he, and went off to Ireland to try), and Connaught and the West always seemed mysterious and intriguing to me.
Having read some from the Scots point of view I wonder if in fact Robert sent his younger brother off to Ireland to get him out of the way. Ambitious siblings/heirs are always better elsewhere and Edward Bruce was responsible for triggering the English invasion which led to Bannockburn which could so easily had ended in disaster for the Scots. He was supposed to be laying siege to Stirling castle, admittedly a thankless task, got bored and came to terms with Sir Philip Mowbray the equally bored castellan, that the Castle would be surrendered if it wasn't relieved by the following midsummer. nothing like inviting trouble, which duly came.
Am I wrong in thinking that the map of the XI. Kingdoms has changed over the years? The map we have here (derived from an RPG?) just feels...somehow...different from the maps in the books back in the early 80s? Am I just looking back too much into the past or have things slightly changed?
I take the earlier maps, including those in the codex, to be in-universe maps with all the limits of medieval cartography.
By that standard they're rather good.
I do love medieval cartography. When I used to teach, I'd apologize in advance to my classes on how badly I did sketch maps on the chalkboard...and then point out that I was still doing at least as well as medieval mapmakers. (And it is fun to draw a medieval T-map of the known world)