I have always wanted more than we were given about Meraude. She is a fairly strong supporting character in The Histories and the later books. She is one of those supporting characters that is there when conveniently needed, but we get little back story. . We know she fell in love and married Nigel at a very young age and of course they had 4 children.
She seems immediately tolerant and even sympathetic to Alaric from a young age. What made her different about her attitude towards Deryni then her brother? Her brother Saer wasn't so accepting of Deryni at first. Alaric and Kelson seem to trust her implicitly.
I also wonder how she felt about having the role of hostess and Chetalaine thrust upon her when Jehana left in the Histories books. When Jehana just took off, someone had to fill the role of chetlaine at Rhemuth and that someone was Meraude. Did she resent having that thrust upon her?
If Jehana had not left, would Meraude and Nigel have been able to live in Carthmoor? Or would they have still had to stay at Rhemuth since Nigel is Kelson's heir apparent.
Maraude seems to be totally out of patience with Jehana for her rigidity regarding Deryni.
I really would have liked to know more about Meraude.
I too would like to know more about Meraude. She's interesting, and as you said, we have little backstory for her.
I think that regardless of Jehana, though, she and Nigel would likely have stayed in Rhemuth at least most of the time; not only is Nigel Kelson's heir apparent (at least until Prince Javan is born, per Codex, and even then, if--heaven forbid--Kelson were to die before Javan was an adult, Nigel would certainly be an important member of the Regency Council, even as he is an important member of Kelson's Royal Council), but he seems to be the most important instructor of pages, squires, and knights.
And for Meraude's part, I think she too would prefer to stay in Rhemuth most of the time; she seems to be a family-oriented person, and she seems to want her children to be with their cousin (and cousins, plural, once Kelson and Araxie marry and start having children). I'm getting this notion from her treatment of Vanissa and Conalline. She is more concerned that her granddaughter and that child's mother be with their family than that their association with Haldane family is because of Conall's dishonorable conduct.
She seems very practical that way; by KKB, Conall is dead, Rothana and Alpin are settled (or, once Rothana agrees to let Alpin make his own choices re: church or secular life, they are), and Conalline is close to Eirian's age. The circumstances of Conalline's conception were not because of Vanissa behaving badly, and Meraude sees no reason for Vanissa and Conalline to pay for Conall's treachery by being ostracized from the rest of the family.
As to Meraude taking up the duties of a queen while Jehana is flagellating herself and Kelson is yet a bachelor, Meraude was a noblewoman before she married Nigel and became a royal duchess. She would have been taught to shepherd a large household as a matter of course, because that was how noblewomen were educated. I don't get the impression that she resents Jehana because Meraude is, effectively, doing Jehana's job for her; I think she resents Jehana's intractability re: Deryni in general and Alaric Morgan specifically. In other words, I don't think she minds being chatelaine; I think what bothers her about it is the reason why.
But yes, I would like to know more, canonically, about the lady. I like her very much. :)
My memory fails me, but wasn't it in The King's Deryni, where Nigel is being chased by the Lady from Meara( her name fails me) and he narrowly stays away from her. And then he meets the much sweeter Meraude and falls in love.
The late JastaElf would have jumped into this conversation with both feet, as she had a passion for both Nigel and Meraude. At the time she and I originally met online, she had started a fanfic story about their meeting and romance that alas, she never finished, much to my regret. I remember feeling started in TBH when Kelson mentions "Nigel and Aunt Meraude have been badgering me to marry." We know that Prince Nigel is a father, and as a Royal Duke, it stood to reason he was also married. But we never actually meet his wife in the original trilogy.
We also don't know too much about whatever moral and spiritual battles Meraude may have fought in her own mind over the Deryni matter. She grew up in the North, and since Loris was Bishop of Stavenham for a time, that doesn't suggest the area was particularly accepting of Deryni. As a young girl and woman newly come to Brion's Court, and then as Nigel's bride, she and Jehana became related by marriage, and Lord knows, Jehana wouldn't have fostered much tolerance for Deryni, and especially not for Alaric Morgan.
It could be that Meraude is someone who can watch and learn, drawing her own conclusions, but discreet enough not to just blurt out dangerous points of view. As a girl and young woman, newly come to court to serve Queen Richeldis and then as Nigel's bride, she would have spent quite a lot of time in Jehana's company, and they do appear fond of each other. They raised their children together, and Meraude is definitely a fully fledged member of the Royal family. Maybe Meraude can recognize how religious fanaticism can make people behave foolishly. She could no doubt see that her Brother-in-law the King had HIS head on straight about the Deryni matter, and could value Morgan as a friend and courtier, and took her cues from him rather than from Jehana. She could disagree with Jehana, but couldn't do so all that openly or often, so possibly she spent a lot of time biting her tongue. Maybe she tried to gently reason with Jehana to foster peace in the Royal marriage, but could never get very far past Jehana's religious conditioning.
It might not have been that rapid a transition to accepting Deryni for Meraude, since she was married to Nigel young, and by the time we meet her, she's in her late twenties or early thirties. It is true that as a nobleman's daughter, she would have been taught how to run a large, complicated household. It stood to reason that someone experienced would have to run the royal household. In a matter of a few months, Kelson went from being a boy and a Prince with two living parents, not having to handle adult responsibilities yet, to losing his father, becoming King, and then having his mother leave for an extended period.
Was Meraude going to say "sorry kid, you're on your own" in those circumstances? I don't think so. I believe she accepted becoming chatelaine at Rhemuth Castle in the same spirit that Nigel accepted his new role in Kelson's court. It would have been disastrous to have the royal household founder into chaos. NEITHER one of them was about to desert their King and nephew when he badly needed help from every adult he could trust. Perhaps Meraude gave Kelson some discreet mothering when his spirits were particularly low because he certainly had a big adjustment to make about his change of circumstances. Whether Meraude approved of Jehana's leaving for the convent is another matter entirely. Jehana was newly widowed and deeply grieving, AND having to confront the unwelcome realization that she was Deryni; maybe Meraude approved of her going in the short term at the time, not realizing that Jehana would be away from court for years rather than months.
Melissa
Meraude is very much one of those characters whose story is worth telling. I hope you'll try your hand at her tale!
Shiral very good thoughts. It is an interesting perspective that Meraude became chatelaine thinking/hoping it would be temporary, long enough for the queen to get through her grief, but in time it became more permanent, that is until Kelson married. It was very fortunate that Meraude was a very capable women and just did what was necessary to do for her husband, family and king.
I would love to read a story about her.
playing devil's advocate:
If King Brion Haldane *was* nursing a viper at his breast by taking in a Deryni, after the inevitable betrayal and death, Nigel becomes king.
A truly cynical wife would regard becoming queen as sufficient reward to justify being a wallflower and letting nature take its course...
Many years ago "The Mearan Sunday Herald" did a shock expose of the evil villain Meraude - dubbed the most wicked villain of the Kelson era. As the Mearan Sunday Herald wrote way back when "Don't tell me you fell for the nice Auntie ploy?"
The expose also painted the noble Nigel Haldane in a not so good light as well. The perceived slight to the good name of Nigel led the late Jasta to write a spirited defense of Nigel allegedly published in the pro-Haldane "Carthmoor Clarion"
It is still possible that I have a copy of the original post saved somewhere
This is a great discussion! I've always like Meraude. She seems to have a level head on her no doubt lovely shoulders. I like the way she is portrayed in the story about Richenda and Alaric becoming engaged. Maybe she had a secret friend who was Deryni and that's why she likes Alaric. I agree, she would have had to keep her head when talking to Jehana, but maybe she saw promise in the queen if HRH would just accept her own Deryniness. Would love to read a story about her, especially one before she came to court & met everyone else. Or one that referred to her pre-court days.
A great discussion - I would love to see the scurrilous article if it can be found.
Two things have occurred to me as to why Meraude was accepting of Alaric.
I think that she would have most likely heard from both Nigel and Brion that Alaric had used his magic to save Brion in the battle against the Marluk. This would have predisposed her to be favourable, and Meraude has always struck me as being pragmatic and wise, not given to extremes like Jehana.
I was also wondering whether Meraude as a young woman had acquired a less than favourable impression of Lori's. When he was not fulminating against Deryni I can imagine him also having strong views on the dangers of young attractive women as " The devil's gateway". Perhaps she had to listen to one rant too often on the subject and decided that Loris' fanaticism on all subjects should not be taken at face value. Just a thought.
Saer of course would not had had either of these reasons to question the prevailing wisdom about Deryni - he strikes me as trustworthy and solid but not much oc a challenger of the status quo.
Quote from: duck on July 21, 2021, 06:24:57 AM
It is still possible that I have a copy of the original post saved somewhere
I would love to see this!! :)
Me too!
Me, too. Sounds like a fun read.
Me, too. Sounds like a fun read.
I agree with all that has been posted above.
I also think Meraude may have been an additional mother figure for Kelson, certainly a counter to Jehana's fanaticism. Kelson certainly seems to have live for her and she seems to be one of the few humans that Kelson and Morgan trust implicitly.
I suspect that she also saw Morgan's interactions with Brion and with Kelson as he was growing, and this enabled her to see a side of Morgan that Jehana didn't. She respected Morgan for his Deryni abilities but more so for his unconditional loyalty to the Haldanes.
There are a few instances throughout the series of Kelson displaying affection towards her so I believe he loves and trusts her as his aunt but also trusts her enough to share secrets with her. Morgan seems to as well.
"Nigel is Kelson's heir apparent"
Nitpick: Nigel is Kelson's heir presumptive. An heir apparent is an heir who can be displaced from their heirdom only by their own death. For example, Kelson was Brion's heir apparent.
X being the heir presumptive to Y means that, if X dies right now, Y will inherit, but if X survives, someone else could muscle into line in front of Y. Nigel is Kelson's heir presumptive, because Kelson's son (if lawfully begotten of his body, I presume) would bump Nigel down a step in the queue. And any more sons of Kelson, or other descendants of Kelson, would bump Nigel and his descendants even further down and down.
An heir apparent cannot be displaced by the birth of anyone else, but only by their own death. An heir presumptive can be displaced if the monarch has a direct heir. In the UK in the 20th century, two heirs presumptive became monarch:
Edward VIII became King on the death of his father, George V, as his eldest legitimate son. As he was not married, his heir presumptive was his next younger brother, Prince Albert, Duke of York. When EVIII abdicated, his brother became King George VI (he chose is last baptismal name to reign under, to show continuity with his father George V.) George VI had only daughters, and at that time, males took preference over females. The future Elizabeth II could have been displaced at any time up to her accession had her parents produced a son - she was only ever "heir presumptive" to her father. The law was changed in 2015 for those born after 2013, so now Princess Charlotte is ahead of younger brother Prince Louis instead of behind him. Prince William is heir apparent, and Prince George is HIS heir apparent, as they can only be displaced by their own deaths.
I was thinking of how Meraude must have been the backbone of support for Rory & Payne when Nigel was still weak and Connell was under arrest. There's not a lot of discussion of how the younger brothers reacted, though they always seemed to like Kelson better.
I don't think Nigel and Meraude were bad parents at all, given the affection everyone has for them, simply that their eldest son just turned out not to be like them. After all, Connell thinks about how he used his powers to 'persuade' the serving girls into sex, and that means inability to say 'no,' which means rape, as much as Ithel's rape of Princess Janniver.
That's not something he'd have ever learned from his parents. One wonder who his friends were at court or during his service as a page and squire. What crowd did he run with? And did his parents separate him from them hoping to change him?
Quote from: Cory on May 16, 2023, 01:14:02 PMI was thinking of how Meraude must have been the backbone of support for Rory & Payne when Nigel was still weak and Connell was under arrest. There's not a lot of discussion of how the younger brothers reacted, though they always seemed to like Kelson better.
I don't think Nigel and Meraude were bad parents at all, given the affection everyone has for them, simply that their eldest son just turned out not to be like them. After all, Connell thinks about how he used his powers to 'persuade' the serving girls into sex, and that means inability to say 'no,' which means rape, as much as Ithel's rape of Princess Janniver.
That's not something he'd have ever learned from his parents. One wonder who his friends were at court or during his service as a page and squire. What crowd did he run with? And did his parents separate him from them hoping to change him?
Yes, this really caught my attention the last time I read that trilogy. What really made me wonder was that, IIRC, he also didn't limit his mental/sexual tampering (or as you very correctly say, rapes) to the serving staff. I think if Conall had been dallying with the occasional chambermaid or kitchen girl, but it appeared to be consensual, that wouldn't have raised too many eyebrows in a medieval court. (The thought of whether the consent was actual or whether the girl might have felt coerced due to the rank differential might not have been considered.) However, I'm pretty sure Nigel and Meraude would have both been deeply disturbed if they knew Conall was deliberately overriding any girl's free will, and would have done their best to put a stop to that. And since IIRC the books say that he did the same thing to a few ladies of the court (i.e. daughters of other courtiers, with potentially severe dynastic implications if any of them turned up pregnant as a result), I think they would have been utterly horrified if they knew he was in any sort of sexual relationship, consensual or not, with any nobleman's daughter, and a marriage would have been very hastily arranged if the young lady had consented to the matter. If she hadn't...I think Kelson might have needed to stand in line behind Nigel when it came to administering some swift consequences!
I do wonder if Conall ended up fathering other babies that he never knew about, and how horrific that would be for any young woman who found herself pregnant with no memory of how she ended up that way, and no reason she could give to her family or anyone else who might ask. A Deryni sifting through her blocked memories could figure out what happened, but first they would need to have a reason to go poking into her memories. And for Conall's victims, I imagine "Oh, I must have been raped by someone with Deryni powers! Maybe another Deryni can help me get to the bottom of this mystery" would be the very last consideration on their mind.
I agree that Nigel and Meraude would have been absolutely appalled to know that Conall used Deryni coercion on any girl at court as would Kelson. Not only would they have sympathy for the young women involved, and would realize the dynastic complications had a courtier's daughter been impregnated by Conall out of wedlock, but the mental coercion involved would have reflected VERY badly on the Haldanes and on the Deryni in the kingdom. Kelson, Alaric, Duncan, Dhugal and Arilan in particular have worked VERY hard to restore honor to being Deryni in Gwynedd, but here comes Conall, who already has every advantage on his side, using his powers to seduce girls and women. And yes, Conall's behavior does make him a rapist, apparently many times over. I think his former mistress Vanissa, Conalline Amelia's mother definitely falls into that cateogry. That he gives her a nice little cottage to live in and is prepared to provide for both Vanissa and their daughter and treated her tolerably well barely covers the situation. She was after all his cover for meeting Tiercel, who seemed to be losing most of his respect for Conall, judging by their conversation in the prologue of Quest for Saint Camber. Conall clearly had no problems altering her memory to suit himself, and very little regard for Vanissa herself when Conall casually offers her to Tiercel.
I do not say I agree with the philosophy, but historically speaking, "Droight de Seigneur" was heavily weighted in the favor of privileged young men like Conall. His rank would have meant that people who knew might have been prepared to look the other way, if he had done his duty by his out of wedlock children and their mothers. Kelson definitely wouldn't have appreciated having Conall's abuse of his illegitimate power made public knowledge. It would have badly offset all Kelson's efforts to undo centuries of anti-Deryni prejudice in Gwynedd. And it wouldn't have done his relationship with the Church any good, either.
Melissa
Covering over her son's misuse of Vanessa would possibly be another reason for Meraude to become so involved in Connaline's life too.
I don't think it was her main reason but until Shiral's post, I hadn't thought of the horrible implications if a Haldane prince is using the rumored Haldane powers to coerce ladies of the court into sexual relationships. Yet another black mark to Connal and a peak into what his reign might have been like.
I don't deny that Conall turns into a really unpleasant character but I think there are reasons which help to explain, though not justify, why he turned out the way he did. Reasons which don't apply to Payne or Rory.
He seems to be eaten up with jealousy for Kelson, and I can see why. As they both reach the cusp of manhood Brion dies, with all that follows and all of Nigel's attention is taken up with defending his King. At the same time Jehana takes herself off in a hissy fit - or crisis of conscience - and Meraude has to take on the running of the Palace. Not only does Kelson get the crown, with all the honour that entails, not to mention magical powers, but he gets Conall's parents' attention too. Just as things settle down up turns this uncouth borderer who turns out to be the King's blood- brother and Conall is side-lined again.
Yes Conall is thoroughly unpleasant but I think Kelson also mishandled him, being too inexperienced to see what starts out as bratty behaviour as masking real unhappiness.
Tiercel might not like Conall but he is as bad, using others purely for his own ends.
It's funny in a Meraude thread that we all (including me) reverted to talk about her kids because all we've seen of her is as a mother--even when we get her actions in bringing her granddaughter to court, it's family-oriented. It's not bad to be that way--I'm a mother of four!--but it would be fun to see if there's another side of her too.
OTOH, considering she keeps having kids, maybe she loves being a mother and sees that as her primary identity. Richenda, for example, would see mother as part of her, but also a scholar, and magic practitioner....though, like Meraude, she would share the duties of running a household.
With Meraude being Nigel's wife and Brion's sister-in-law, Kelson would have been exposed to her good/bad from infancy. Being who she was and where she came from before being either of those would have helped temper and prepare her for what came later, you add to it what seems to be a strong and moral compass what she did isn't at all too surprising. As for Connell his action are mostly on him, he knew it was wrong and still did it DESPITE his parent's upbringing.
Quote from: Cory on May 16, 2023, 03:29:43 PMCovering over her son's misuse of Vanessa would possibly be another reason for Meraude to become so involved in Connaline's life too.
I don't think it was her main reason but until Shiral's post, I hadn't thought of the horrible implications if a Haldane prince is using the rumored Haldane powers to coerce ladies of the court into sexual relationships. Yet another black mark to Connal and a peak into what his reign might have been like.
Though I suspect that it wasn't uncommon in the Eleven Kingdoms for Deryni to use their abilities for such ends-- and very likely a great many people who were unknowingly Deryni were always amazed at how lucky they were at seductions.