Was the feud "made up" so that Stefan Coram would never have to face himself (which would be impossible)in his Rhydon disguise? I checked the Codex for it, and came up with nothing, and of course it was never mentioned in High Deryni either, just that Stefan swore to never be in the same room as Rhydon.
Good question.
Or perhaps they really did hate each other, and Stefan killed the actual Rhydon to ensure that there would never be a problem with Stefan's ruse?
We know that the Council of that time prized ruthlessness, after all. :grins diabolically:
I don't think so. I'd have to reread the Childe Morgan series to be sure, but I think Rhydon (the original one) and Stefan are more clearly separate people in that, but the CC is already starting to show concern about the company Rhydon is keeping.
Hi ladies,
Thanks for the speedy reply. I think Stefan said he was in a position to assume Rhydon's identity pg 337 HD "The real Rhydon of Eastmarch died of a heart seizure nearly six years ago. Fortunately , I was in a position to take his place." Stefan Coram
I'm curious to know how that was possible and or happened? Stefan Coram seems to have very considerable powers, which is a mystery as well and his conspiracy to work against the CC (and restore it to its lofty goals IMO)
The real Rhydon having died of a "heart seizure" doesn't necessarily negate my (diabolical) theory above, as the sympathetic magic spell of reaching out and squeezing someone's heart until it stops is, per KK in Deryni Magic, very like a heart attack in its effect. Rhydon's heart seizure might not have been entirely natural and spontaneous.
And yes, I wonder if Stefan had found something along the lines of the Protocols of Orin or some similar documents?
I like your line of thought, and perhaps Stefan facilitated it, so that he could take his ID and take out Wencit eventually.
And also your speculation on Stefan acquiring some lost Protocols of Orin writings........
Stefan certainly seems to have been playing a long game with Wencit's end as his goal. :)
And on another line of speculation, what did Wencit do to have Stefan despise him so much?
Quote from: Lochiel on September 25, 2016, 12:18:38 PM
And on another line of speculation, what did Wencit do to have Stefan despise him so much?
If Wencit's behavior in DC and HD was typical of his reign overall, then knowledge of his character and what might happen if his control over one of the largest and most influential kingdoms in the region were to extend over another such kingdom (which, had he succeeded, would have made him pretty much the ruler of a medieval superpower once Gwynedd was successfully subjugated and he had its resources under his command also) would have been sufficient motivation for Stefan to want to keep Wencit from ever reaching his goals. Wencit would not have cared in the least about maintaining, much less attempting to improve, the precarious balance in human/Deryni relations (already slanted against Deryni and working to overcome two centuries of ill will resulting from the first Festillic tyranny). He wanted power and control over what he saw as his birthright, no matter what it might take to achieve that. He would have simply imposed a second tyrannical reign, confirming in human minds that Deryni are all evil and not to be trusted, thus undermining all that the CC had worked behind the scenes for those two centuries to protect.
Well, it seems impossible for Coram to have replaced Rhydon before Rhydon was expelled from the Camberian Council in 1105 since they'd have had to have been in the same place. Since Rhydon was supporting an uprising against the Haldanes and Coram pretty evidently didn't, they would at least have been on different sides there but it may not have been personal.
Meanwhile, I have to admit I can understand the Torenthi royalty's differences with the Camberian Council. Firstly, the Camberians support the Haldanes as rulers of Gwynedd - which is a pretty fundamentally against Torenthi interest since under the Festils, Gwynedd was a vassal kingdom of Torenth - if one that had a lot of independence.
Secondly, the Council position themselves as governing all Deryni, anywhere. Which is a conflicting loyalty compared to loyalty to one's king. That's an issue in Gwynedd, as we've seen, somewhat salved by the fact that since most Deryni don't admit that that's what they are, that loyalty is hidden for the most part - and at the end of the day, the Deryni need the Council's support to have somewhere to turn if... let's be honest, when things go against them. And in most of the other known kingdoms it's much the same.
But in Torenth, that's very different. Being Deryni isn't a secret. In fact, your loyalty as a Deryni should be precisely the same as your loyalty as a Torenthi: to your feudal overlord and through them to the King, who's expected to be among the most accomplished Deryni among the House of Furstan (since otherwise an accident may have eliminated them before they reach the throne). So loyalty to the Council is a direct conflict with patriotism. Wencit, like most of his ancestors, has absolutely solid grounds to regard this it as bordering on treason. He doesn't need the Council, at best he tolerates it and gives mouth service to the idea that they maintain Deryni traditions - as long as they're doing it places where he isn't doing that.
Quote from: drakensis on September 26, 2016, 03:58:12 PM
But in Torenth, that's very different. Being Deryni isn't a secret. In fact, your loyalty as a Deryni should be precisely the same as your loyalty as a Torenthi: to your feudal overlord and through them to the King, who's expected to be among the most accomplished Deryni among the House of Furstan (since otherwise an accident may have eliminated them before they reach the throne).
I don't suppose you would be referring to the incident in which Wencint's two eldest brother's were involved in a
"magical experiment gone horribly wrong..." in which Crown Prince Nimur was killed and Prince Torval was driven mad.
One must be very careful when playing with powers beyond the imagining. A good example of what happens when one does not heed the advice of the wise Camberian Council. They had advised the brothers to stop, but no one listened.
Not specifically referring to that. It's applicable in a way though. I could see the Torenthi, with their unbroken Deryni traditions, scorning warnings from a foreign group of Deryni, whose traditions have barely survived the centuries at all. They certainly wouldn't see the Council as equals.
Quote from: DesertRose on September 24, 2016, 12:50:24 PMRhydon's heart seizure might not have been entirely natural and spontaneous.
I forget the work of fiction I read where a character said something like, "Died of a heart attack? Consider, though, that the heart stops in all deaths."
Quote from: DesertRose on September 24, 2016, 12:10:18 PMGood question.
Or perhaps they really did hate each other, and Stefan killed the actual Rhydon to ensure that there would never be a problem with Stefan's ruse?
We know that the Council of that time prized ruthlessness, after all. :grins diabolically:
I've always been of the opinion that Coram poisoned Rhydon...
Poison seems to me to be a woman's tactic, and too lowly for Coram. I think a private arcane duel or a sudden unanticipated dispute between them. One which Rhydon may have started, but Coram finished with an abrupt deathreading; learning that becoming Rhydon would have certain benefits that he had not considered before.
I think that poison is also a conspirator's weapon where honourable combat is impossible. Although I lean to the idea that Coram stopped Rhydon's heart magically.
I'm in total agreement that Coram did murder by magic Rhydon.
With no healing magic, but normal scrying magic available, Coram may simply have noticed the incipient heart attack and made sure that he was in position when it occurred.
Or - there must be magical equivalents of duels to 1st or 2nd blood. Deliberately inflicting a wound that ends the duel, but will kill the target later, would be a tactic that the sneaky would consider.
Finally, given Rhydon was supposed to be villainous, he may well have tried to kill Coram, and learned the hard way that this was a bad idea...
Quote from: whitelaughter on November 06, 2023, 03:26:57 PMDeliberately inflicting a wound that ends the duel, but will kill the target later, would be a tactic that the sneaky would consider.
a.k.a. the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique. (
Kill Bill)
Rhydon's death was in all likelihood was just a natural occurrence. I base my observation on what has been written about Coram as being honorable but capable of ruthlessness (i.e. poisoning himself and others). Rhydon's death in my opinion was being in the right place and the right time and taking full advantage of it. His stated reason in HD for the poisoning (i.e. poisoning is not looked on as dishonorable in some cultures and/or some circumstances) was mostly so nothing went Wencit's way nor sideways (as in the death of Kelson). As to Coram and the Protocols of Orrin his shape shifting (the Camber series) and his final words to Arilan, all hints at that and belonging to a group other than the Camberian Council (Camber and Heirs series) though those observations can truly only be made in hindsight
I just reread that final scene, but I'm afraid I don't see the "hints" of "belonging to a group other than the Camberian Council". As an aside, I also don't see anything like "His stated reason in HD for the poisoning (i.e. poisoning is not looked on as dishonorable in some cultures and/or some circumstances)".
I referred to that in a recent, non-Deryni story, as 'died of natural political causes'.
Granted it's been a few years since I've re-read the first trilogy and I don't have the books handy, but I remember Stefan mentions oaths to others or something similar. So if both Arilan and he are in the Camberian Council, who else would be the others and why hide them from Arilan? We also know from later novels i.e. Camber the Heretic and The Harrowing of Gwynedd that another group had likely been formed outside the Camberian Council and that is the "hint" I'm talking about. Coram taking on Rhydon life/form is much or just like Camber did with Alister's this also suggests that he belonged to that other group, because obviously how to do that was close to double ultra secret, not just a secret knowledge. As to the poisoning it was to make sure Kelson won and Wencit didn't, he literally tells Kelson's group that he couldn't take the chance of Kelson losing and Wencit it winning
I've never trusted people like Coram. I think he'd poison Rhydon if he thought he could get some "greater good" out of it.
For me, not just Coram. I have the feeling that the Camberian Council in general would burn down a nunnery with orphans in it just to get a small "greater good", or rather something that they think is a "greater good" but other people might disagree.
Quote from: tmcd on November 08, 2023, 04:27:06 PMFor me, not just Coram. I have the feeling that the Camberian Council in general would burn down a nunnery with orphans in it just to get a small "greater good", or rather something that they think is a "greater good" but other people might disagree.
I agree. Very much so.
Quote from: DoctorM on November 09, 2023, 06:54:46 AMQuote from: tmcd on November 08, 2023, 04:27:06 PMFor me, not just Coram. I have the feeling that the Camberian Council in general would burn down a nunnery with orphans in it just to get a small "greater good", or rather something that they think is a "greater good" but other people might disagree.
I agree. Very much so.
I totally agree.
Agreed. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them - to use an idiom from this side of the pond.
Quote from: revanne on November 09, 2023, 08:19:59 AMAgreed. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them - to use an idiom from this side of the pond.
We use that idiom here on the left side as well. :)
Maybe if we throw from both sides...
Quote from: tmcd on November 08, 2023, 04:27:06 PMFor me, not just Coram. I have the feeling that the Camberian Council in general would burn down a nunnery with orphans in it just to get a small "greater good", or rather something that they think is a "greater good" but other people might disagree.
I have no doubt that some members of the Council would do so, while at the same time others would very definitely not so so. And that arguments over that take up quite a bit of their time.
And even the members who would do so, would not be cackling in corners about it. Very few people see
themselves as evil.