The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

In all the books, are we ever given a full list of the titles borne by a king of Gwynedd? (Or a king of Torenth, for that matter?) I can't recall that even at the crowning in 'Deryni Rising' that we get the full title for a king. King of Gwynedd, certainly, but what other lands and titles go with that? Does anyone recall? Henry II of England was king of England, Lord of Ireland, duke of Normandy, duke of Aquitaine, count of Anjou and Poitou and God alone knows what else. What would King Brion have been? Any thoughts?

We get the full string in Deryni Rising,I think. IIRC,Kelson is King of Gwynedd, Prince of Meara, Duke of Haldane and Lord of the Purple March,all of which would have also been Brion's titles previously, I should think, although I don't know if Kelson might have inherited one of those (such as Prince of Meara) prior to Brion's death. I can't remember off the top of my head if that full list was first used to refer to Kelson or to Brion.

Quote from: Evie on June 23, 2023, 10:16:39 PMWe get the full string in Deryni Rising,I think. IIRC,Kelson is King of Gwynedd, Prince of Meara, Duke of Haldane and Lord of the Purple March,all of which would have also been Brion's titles previously, I should think, although I don't know if Kelson might have inherited one of those (such as Prince of Meara) prior to Brion's death. I can't remember off the top of my head if that full list was first used to refer to Kelson or to Brion.

Thanks, Evie! Much appreciated! I have a new Two Kingdoms episode in draft, and I want to have both rulers use their full titles in formal settings.

I've asked about any number of things that were probably obvious from the books, and I only know this bit because I just started a re-read and I'm still in Chapter 1, so I need to refrain from gloating that I know that these are literally the first words in Deryni Rising:

QuoteBrion Haldane, King of Gwynedd, Prince of Meara, and Lord of the Purple March, reined in his horse sharply at the top of the hill and scanned the horizon.

As a trivial tangent not applicable to King Kelson:

Of course, Katherine has reserved the right to change her mind. As an example, page 5 (paperback) was "He [Brion] tended to forget that Kelson was nearly fourteen, of legal age. Brion himself had been only a few years older when he came to the throne." But the end of chapter 20 of Childe Morgan has Donal dying, and notes that Brion "was now become Gwynedd's sovereign lord at fourteen years of age". (The appendix to High Deryni already had Brion born in 1081 and Donal dying in 1095.)

So "Prince of Meara" may be a problem at the moment of this passage. I'm pretty sure that somewhere it's said that Brion created Kelson as Prince of Meara when he was 2, and that it provoked a rebellion in Meara (maybe in The Bishop's Heir or The King's Justice?). The Bishop's Heir, at the end of chapter 1, has Loris thinking about the "Mearan housecleanings" that "Brion had taken such action only once during his reign, shortly after the birth of his own son". The rare chapbook covers that general period and might have more. So it probably should have been "Overlord of Meara".

But maybe an hour after this passage, of course, King Kelson would have all those titles as listed. End tangent.

Edit: High Deryni, chapter 26, when the Camberian Council starts the process for the duel arcane, Kelson introduces himself as "My stepdaddy lord, I, Kelson Haldane,  King of Gwynedd, Prince of Meara, and Lord of the Purple March, and counted a full Deryni by thy reckoning, do affirm my acceptance ..."

Prince of Meara is probably used in parallel to Prince of Wales.

Edward I of England named his heir Prince of Wales to try to appease welsh rebels who look back to their own princes. Similarly, Malcolm Haldane named his son Prince of Meara to imply continuity from the boy's maternal grandfather Jolyon, whose title was Prince of Meara.

As for Torenth, oddly, often they were referred to as just "King of Torenth", or when Liam was swearing fealty in The King's Justice, ch. 6, "I, Liam, King of Torenth and all the lands therein, ..."

Luckily I remembered that "Seven Tribes" was in there, and Google Books has it. High Deryni, near the start of ch. 3, Lionel is giving the invitation to Cardosa to Bran Coris. "My lord Earl of Marley, Wencit Furstán Padishah, King of Torenth and Tolan and the Seven Tribes to the East, desires the honor of your presence ..." (I have some dim memory of "Lord of Arjenol". But that couldn't be in this book, because Lionel is the Duke and doesn't get offed until almost the end. Maybe it was a dream sequence on my part; maybe it's elsewhere in King Kelson's Bride and applies to Liam.)

Weird wording, because it implies that Tolan was a kingdom, when it was a duchy in Deryni Rising. Wencit is calling himself its ruler as Charissa's heir, or possibly overlord. (I had the impression that Tolan was held as a fief, but now I'm not sure I remember that being stated.) I've only read the latest installments of this AU, so I don't know why Wencit is warring on Charissa. If he considered the Shadowed One to be a disobedient vassal, then he might have declared her duchy forfeit and taken the title. If she was a neighbor instead, he might have given some sort of justification like she not being the rightful heiress. So something along these lines (meaning Wencit adding "of Tolan") might do quite well in the current story.

I thought the killijálay might have the full set of titles as mentioned above, but in King Kelson's Bride, ch. 19, Liam is called "Liam-Lajos ho Phourstanos padishah" pretty consistently.

The Codex  has these titles listed for these people:
Gwynedd:

Malcolm Congel Aidan Julian Haldane, King of Gwynedd, Duke of Rhemuth.

Donal Blaine II Aidan Cinhil Haldane, King of Gwynedd.

Brion Donal CInhil Urien haldane, King of Gwynedd.

Kelson Cinhill Rhys Anthony Haldane, King of Gwynedd, Overlord of Torenth, Prince of Meara, Duke of Haldane, Lord of the Purple March, Guardian of Gwernach.

We know Kelson earned the title Overlord of Torenth when he defeated Wencit.
Kelson also earned the title Guardian of Gwernach when he defeated Charissa in the arcane duel at his coronation.

It is interesting to note that Malcolm was the Duke of Rhemuth and Kelson is the Duke of Haldane, The city of Rhemuth lies with in the borders of the duchy of Haldane. So I am not sure why the difference in titles.

The codex says "The title 'Lord of the Purple March' is one of the most valued appellations of the crown of Gwynedd". This gives the impression that this has been a title for Gwynedd's kings for many many generations.

As for the title Prince of Meara, that title could be claimed by any ancestor of Princess Roisian Quinnell and Malcolm Haldane. But I do not know if Donal used the title. I would have to read through the Child Morgan series to see if he did.


Torenth:

Wencit as Wenzel II Zsubit, Kyprian Nimur Furstan, King of Torenth, Titular King of Gwynedd, Duke of Vorna, Duke of Tolan, Sometime Regeant of D'Arjenol.

Liam Lajos II Lionel Laszlo Furstan d'Arjenol, King of Torenth, Duke of Nordmacke.

Teymuraz Tivadar Termod Theodorik Furstan d'Arjenol-Brustarkia, Sometime count of Brustarkia and reagent of d'Arjenol, grand Duke of Phourstania, Titular King of Torenth and Gwynedd.

The Dukes of Tolan follow the Festil-Furstan Lines(The Pretenders of Gwynedd) Imre II, Marek II and III, Hogan, and Charissa. Wencit gets the title back after the death of Charissa.

The royal family of Furstan married into the  Braidik family of the soverign princes of Arjenol in 916 and from then on a relation to the King of Torenth was the Duke of D' Arjenol but none of the kings actually carried the title.

The Duchies of Nordmacke, Westmarcke, Ostmarche, and Eistenmarcke, were all given to family members of the Furstans. but I think only Liam brings one of those titles to the crown.

Tolan was once an independent land, and was annexed by Torenth in 677. It's one of the eleven kingdoms referenced in the song:

Now, these are the Names of the Eleven Kingdoms,
sung rightly well of old;
Howicce, and Llannedd, and fierce Connait;
mountainous Meara, the Land Beyond the River;
and Kheldour, the windswept;
and pastoral Eastmarch;
Tolan and Torenth, and myth-ridden Mooryn
and lost Caerisse, which sank beneath the sea;
and far-reaching Gwynedd, seat of the Haldane Kings.

This is a matter of myth, not history - there's no historic point where all of these existed at the same time and Caerisse may never have existed.

By Kelson's time:
Howicce and Llannedd have a united crown;
Meara has been divided and piece by piece was brought into Gwynedd;
Kheldour was conquered by Eastmarch and both joined Gwynedd after the Haldane restoration;
Tolan - as above - was conquered by Torenth; Mooryn was brought into Gwynedd by Festil I;
and Caerisse reputedly sank beneath the sea around 525 (prior to the foundation of Torenth, Gwynedd or the division of the Marches that created Eastmarch as one of four states).

Quote from: drakensis on June 25, 2023, 02:19:05 AMHowicce and Llannedd have a united crown

(yes, and continuing because there are some shenanigans incoming)

My backstory for Llyr in my AU take on the Deryniverse is that it was originally settled by survivors fleeing the Caerisse catastrophe. (Mostly seafaring traders who were away from port at the time and ended up having no home to return to, but also a few evacuees who heeded the early warning signs of an upcoming eruption, and even though they might not have known it was going to destroy their homeland, thought it prudent to leave their island kingdom until the whole thing settled down again.)

I do love the sound of full royal titles read aloud. I think in my "Two Kingdoms" AU I'll have to look at both the titles and (revised, possibly) heraldry Charissa will use for her new kingdom-- and at the subtext of using each component.

I'm sitting here tonight crafting a full title for Charissa in my AU stories. It's easy to imagine her sitting with Christian and Aurelian thinking of items to add to her full royal title...especially items designed to anger both Wencit and Kelson.

If we go by the codex, she could reasonably include (Dowager-)Queen of Torenth.

(According to the codex, she was married to Wencit's nephew, the previous king of Torenth, and may have conspired towards her husband's untimely end after he 'accidentally' killed their daughter.)

You might not be using that plot point though. I don't think it every appeared in any of the novels.

Quote from: drakensis on July 01, 2023, 04:22:43 AMIf we go by the codex, she could reasonably include (Dowager-)Queen of Torenth.

(According to the codex, she was married to Wencit's nephew, the previous king of Torenth, and may have conspired towards her husband's untimely end after he 'accidentally' killed their daughter.)

You might not be using that plot point though. I don't think it every appeared in any of the novels.

I think in this timeline, she never married Aldred-- he was put off by her notorious affair with Christian, and many of the Torenthi magnates objected to the crown acquiring her lands. (She was aware of the assassination plot, but not part of it.) But I think she will be finding claims to bits of Torenth...

Quote from: DoctorM on June 30, 2023, 08:11:13 PMIt's easy to imagine her sitting with Christian and Aurelian thinking of items to add to her full royal title...especially items designed to anger both Wencit and Kelson.

Duchess of Haldane? Lady of Cardosa?

Quote from: tmcd on July 01, 2023, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: DoctorM on June 30, 2023, 08:11:13 PMIt's easy to imagine her sitting with Christian and Aurelian thinking of items to add to her full royal title...especially items designed to anger both Wencit and Kelson.

Duchess of Haldane? Lady of Cardosa?

Quote from: tmcd on July 01, 2023, 03:21:33 PM

Quote from: DoctorM on June 30, 2023, 08:11:13 PMIt's easy to imagine her sitting with Christian and Aurelian thinking of items to add to her full royal title...especially items designed to anger both Wencit and Kelson.

Duchess of Haldane? Lady of Cardosa?

I just may add those!

At least in my AU, Wencit is at war with Charissa because his planned war against Brion Haldane simply continued after Brion's death and the coup at Rhemuth. Wencit's goal is to occupy eastern Gwynedd at worst, and at best to become overlord of Gwynedd.

Quote from: tmcd on June 24, 2023, 01:57:54 AMAs for Torenth, oddly, often they were referred to as just "King of Torenth", or when Liam was swearing fealty in The King's Justice, ch. 6, "I, Liam, King of Torenth and all the lands therein, ..."

Luckily I remembered that "Seven Tribes" was in there, and Google Books has it. High Deryni, near the start of ch. 3, Lionel is giving the invitation to Cardosa to Bran Coris. "My lord Earl of Marley, Wencit Furstán Padishah, King of Torenth and Tolan and the Seven Tribes to the East, desires the honor of your presence ..." (I have some dim memory of "Lord of Arjenol". But that couldn't be in this book, because Lionel is the Duke and doesn't get offed until almost the end. Maybe it was a dream sequence on my part; maybe it's elsewhere in King Kelson's Bride and applies to Liam.)

Weird wording, because it implies that Tolan was a kingdom, when it was a duchy in Deryni Rising. Wencit is calling himself its ruler as Charissa's heir, or possibly overlord. (I had the impression that Tolan was held as a fief, but now I'm not sure I remember that being stated.) I've only read the latest installments of this AU, so I don't know why Wencit is warring on Charissa. If he considered the Shadowed One to be a disobedient vassal, then he might have declared her duchy forfeit and taken the title. If she was a neighbor instead, he might have given some sort of justification like she not being the rightful heiress. So something along these lines (meaning Wencit adding "of Tolan") might do quite well in the current story.

I thought the killijálay might have the full set of titles as mentioned above, but in King Kelson's Bride, ch. 19, Liam is called "Liam-Lajos ho Phourstanos padishah" pretty consistently.