Carthmoor is a royal Duchy at least by the time of Kelson, and therefore presumably provides a considerable income and also manpower for feudal levies, and yet it appears to be totally devoid of towns at least according to the map in the Deryni Adventure Game. Am I missing something and if not is it acceptable to invent places as long as they are appropriate i.e. not Las Vegas or the like.?
Don't see why not, I invented places all the time! ;D
The maps of Carthmoor seem to have forgotten that towns exist. Invent away - especially if it means a new fanfic is in the works! :)
Either that or find some good reason why there are no significant towns.
I think it's simply that Carthmoor doesn't really figure all that much in the stories (that I can recall anyway), and therefore when it came time to put towns onto the maps, no one thought to make locations up to put there. It's mainly mentioned in canon in connection with "Prince Nigel, Duke of ...." But I'm certain the man is duke of something besides blank space! ;D
Or even Duke of something besides acres upon acres of farmland. :D
My poster map shows Point Kental as that lowest tip of southwest Carthmoor, and it appears that New Argeod is in Carthmoor as well. Haut Eirial might be in Lendour if the river just south of it marks the border, but just barely so. It's hard to tell how far east the duchy extends before it runs up against the Corwyn western border. It could end at the foothills of the Lendour mountain range, or continue past that as far as the Rhengarth River that empties out into Coroth Bay just west of the city itself. (Personally I suspect the mountains mark the border, but the map doesn't make that clear.)
Perhaps it is like Algaria in David Eddings' "Belgariad"?
It's been so long since I read the Belgariad, I don't recall a thing about it anymore, other than that I enjoyed the books.
IIRC (it's been a while since I read them myself), Algaria was a rather large country in land area that consisted largely of grassland, and the population were mostly nomadic herders of cattle and horses, so there really weren't any cities or towns to speak of in Algaria.
When I get home, I will look in the codex, but I recall when Mooryn was split, one of the royal Fistil's designated one Deryni family to receive the Carthmoor lands and the Corwyn lands were made an independant Duchy. About a hundred and fifty years later the Haldanes awarded Carthmoor to be the duchy for the king's brother, I think Duke Richard was the first( I'm at work and can not confirm this.) I would imagine the coast line is filled with fishing villages and the rest is farm land, But there may be some interesting old ruins of Deryni Manor homes on the hills. Perhaps it is like the most Southwestern portion of England. You will have to tell us. I was incorrperationg a tiny bit of that old Deryni family into the history of the Rengarth era,985, so I would love to hear of new towns and villages there.
Quote from: Evie on March 21, 2016, 08:15:29 PM
I think it's simply that Carthmoor doesn't really figure all that much in the stories (that I can recall anyway), and therefore when it came time to put towns onto the maps, no one thought to make locations up to put there. It's mainly mentioned in canon in connection with "Prince Nigel, Duke of ...." But I'm certain the man is duke of something besides blank space! ;D
Nigel, the new Duke of Carthmoor goes to visit his new Duchy. Soon rides back to Rhemuth in a fury and bursts into his Royal brother's study:
"Brion, you never TOLD me that the Duchy of Carthmoor is just a big drawing with no towns in it!"
Brion: "Well, you never ASKED!"
Love it Shiral.
For those who don't have the Codex, I will give a brief history of Carthmoor as listed there. The ancient Kingdom of Mooryn evolved from the withdrawal of the Byzantyun Empire after 561. It was Deryni-ruled until the last King died in 833. His daughter Brionne had already been married to Festil I's eldest son, Festil II. When she died in 835. Mooryn was broken in half: Coroth was given to a Dominic Du Joux as reward for helping King Festil I to Gwynedd's throne, and Carthmoor was reserved for younger sons of the King. The Deryni Festilic dukes were disposed in 917 by the regents and the title passed to Rhys Michael Haldane and his sons.
There is no mention of specific towns in the Codex, but it does state that there are "an assortment of lesser Earldoms and Baronies lying between it and the Duchy of Corwyn to the East."
On the Codex map there is St Ultan's near Kilchon on the southern point. There is St Perpetua along the coastline South of Abbeyford. Abbeyford is on the Lendour river. As Evie states, the poster map has New Argeod (a one time Deryni monastery) just south of Abbeyford. And Haut Eirial is in the hills on the boarder with Lendour.
St. Ultan's Priory was an order of the Ordo Verbi Dei. Abbot Ultan from the 5th century had been a keeper of bees, "from which, it is said, he learned to hum like a bee... he devised a completely new theory of harmonious chant, and founded an academy devoted to the promotion and study of coordinated syncopated humming in ecclesiastical choirs."Codex page 251
I don't find any information on St. Perpetua.
Being of more temperate climate, although likely windy from the Sea, I see Carthmoor as rocky coastal cliffs, cleared rolling hills and farm land, with scattered woodlands.
Revanne, have fun traveling in Carthmoor and let us know what you find.
Thank you all - that's very helpful
I was actually only intending a very short chapter on the Valoret ghost but things have rather got out of hand!
"Thank you all - that's very helpful
I was actually only intending a very short chapter on the Valoret ghost but things have rather got out of hand!"
I was not aware that the story teller had options in this? ;)
A related question--- does anyone know what the ducal capital of Carthmoor would be? And--- Rhemuth, Valoret, Dhassa, Beldour--- any guesses on populations c. 1122? Thanks!
Quote from: DoctorM on April 13, 2016, 08:48:31 AM
A related question--- does anyone know what the ducal capital of Carthmoor would be? And--- Rhemuth, Valoret, Dhassa, Beldour--- any guesses on populations c. 1122? Thanks!
This is sheer speculation, but I tend to equate Rhemuth to medieval London, and so if we take the estimated population of London around 1066 (I pick that date due to it being a historically significant year for England--the date of the Norman Conquest-- that is reasonably close to the same time period as Kelson's Gwynedd), several internet sources give an estimate of around 45,000 as a reasonable guess for London population at that time. If we postulate that Rhemuth, as Gwynedd's capital, is also her largest city, or at least that few other cities in Gwynedd exceed it in population (if any do, my guess would be that Valoret and perhaps Coroth and/or Grecotha might come closest to rivaling it), then the other "large cities" of Kelson's day might run around 5,000 to 40,000 at most in population, with smaller towns having only a hundred or two, and some small villages having only a few dozen at most. The population of England overall was somewhere between 1 and 3 million, depending on which source one reads, so you could take a look at the map, pick out the named cities and towns on it and figure out a likely population base for each, and then remember we're talking about a mostly agrarian culture and assume there's a bunch of tiny farming villages scattered hither and yon (but especially along all those waterways) and likely some undeveloped wilderness as well that remained unpopulated or at least sparsely populated due to scarcity of fresh water, fertile soil, or other such necessities, and not being on a likely trade route between more populated areas.
Don't have the Codex nearby at the moment, so I can't tell if there is a ducal site named for a capital in Carthmoor. The poster map shows Point Kental as being on Carthmoor's southwestern tip, and I think New Argeod falls in its boundaries as well. Can't tell if Nyford falls within that duchy or if it's part of the Duchy of Haldane, since it's just across the Lendour River from most if not all of Carthmoor, depending on whether the river marks the northern boundary of the Duchy of Carthmoor or not. (It seems likely that it does, given the tendency towards clear geographical markers such as rivers and mountain ranges to mark territorial boundaries.)
Oh, and welcome, DoctorM! :)
Thanks for the info! Those numbers aren't too far from what I was thinking... I haven't actually seen the Codex, so my knowledge of the Eleven Kingdoms goes back to the glossaries and maps in the early books....
Anyway--- I've been working on some fanfic (AU things, actually) and I need to buckle down and get some sections posted. (You prefer .txt format, and since I have a Mac, I have to figure out if that presents any difficulties)
And thanks for the welcome! Much appreciated! It's been rather a while, but I've always found the Deryni fan community welcoming and fun.
Well, we definitely TRY to be friendly and welcoming. =o) So jump on in and join the fun, Dr. M, and welcome to Rhemuth Castle. Evie's numbers make sense to me, also. Carthmoor is kind of a blank slate so far, since almost no important plot action has happened there in the books.
There are a few things to keep in mind about Carthmoor that may be helpful to you in your fanfic writings.
It was originally part of the smaller Kingdom of Mooryn before King Festil II married Princess Brionne of Mooryn, who evidently had no male relatives with a stronger claim to the inheritance than she did. The marriage made Mooryn a part of Gwynedd circa 833 or 835. Imre of Festil was considered "Prince of Meara and Mooryn" Mooryn no longer exists as a political entity as far as I can tell, but the place name remains. Geographically speaking it looks like Mooryn was along the Southern sea coast and encompassed all or parts of what is now Corwyn and Carthmoor. Mooryn may have been part of Gwynedd long enough so that the local people no longer have any loyalty to, or even much nostalgia left for Mooryn as a Kingdom in its own right. But for the sake of political intrigue and plot tension, there might be some stubborn fools who resent the fact it's now part of Gwynedd.
Prince Richard Haldane, the previous Duke of Carthmoor, essentially retired from active life as military commander of the Royal Armies in 1106 to make way for Prince Nigel to assume those duties in his stead. His estate in Carthmoor was called Dunluce, located on the coast across a small bay from St. Ultan's Priory according to the signed and limited version of the Codex. Prince Richard married Princess Sivorn von Horthy in April 1107 and they had Richelle in January 1108, and Araxie in December 1109 and Prince Cinric in September 1111. Cinric died at age 3 in the fall of 1114, and Prince Richard died only a month later from a fall from his horse. Brion bestowed the Duchy of Carthmoor on Nigel at Christmas Court in 1114. He also made Richelle Countess of Culdi in her own right, and Araxie became Baroness Dunluce in her own right at the same time.
After Richard's death Princess Sivorn returns to Orsal and Tralia with her daughters by Richard. She remarries, and remains as part of her brother Letald's court until we meet her in King Kelson's Bride.
Dunluce was probably Queen Araxie's dowry, and she retains ownership of the estate and whatever lands went with it, even if the rest of the Duchy belongs to Nigel. I think Nyford is capital of the County of Carthane. But it might be fun to invent a capital city of Carthmoor. Since Dunluce was Prince Richard's retirement haven, it's logical to assume his capital would have been an easy day, or half-day's ride from there. A Southern port city would also make sense in terms of the Southern Sea trade. Coroth would be another important port and trading center, as well. St. Ultan's Priory is, I think a fairly important house of The Ordo Verbi Dei, and given earlier piracy on the Southern Sea, having a ducal capital nearby might be important strategic protection.
Go to it!
Melissa
Glad to have another writer on board! While I don't use a Mac, I think the .txt (plain text) format is fairly universal and just about any software will save to it. But if you want to be on the safe side, just type your text in whatever word processor you normally use, but leave out any special formatting such as italics, bold text, or centered text until you copy/paste it into the editing window of your post, and then you can add that formatting to your story at that time. Hopefully that will work. The new "Fanfics" section that is linked to at the top of the main page is a brand new section that uses a special plug-in we're still figuring out the quirks to (I'm the only one who has tried using it thus far), so if you find it too much of a hassle to work out, posting in the original "Deryni Fanfics" section of the board is fine too, and possibly less complicated as far as potential coding errors go.
The Codex Derynianus can still be found, either new or used, at booksellers like Amazon.com, eBay, and other sellers of new and used books. KK is working on getting an upgraded version created eventually, possibly in an electronic format, but unfortunately her co-author died a short time back, so this is a project that has been on the back burner while she arranges to get the original files from his widow and into the hands of whoever will be helping her convert the information into an electronic publication. There is also a Deryni Adventures roleplaying game sourcebook that is an excellent resource for fanfic writers even if you don't play RPG games, and has the same updated map that can be found in some of KK's more recent Deryni novels. That map is also available as a poster which is also available from Amazon and other places that sell new or used books and/or role playing games. If you've not read any of KK's more recent novels (King Kelson's Bride and/or the Childe Morgan Trilogy), there are always those titles to discover as well. And of course, there are always those oldies-but-goodies waiting to be rediscovered. I'm re-reading The Bishop's Heir for the first time in two decades and seeing it with new eyes, even though it's always been one of my favorites, because two additional decades of life experience changes the way I read the original stories and gives me a different perspective on some characters and scenes, or at least shows me fresh new angles to ponder and explore.
The best way to get to know people on this forum is to attend the weekly Sunday evening chat (afternoon or evening for most of the US, that is, though possibly late night or early morning if you live elsewhere in the world) if you are able to. Unfortunately KK will not be able to attend the chat this upcoming Sunday, but she is there most Sunday evenings starting at 7:00 PM US Eastern Time. On the first Sunday of each month, we move it two hours earlier to 5:00 US Eastern to make it easier for our friends in the UK/Western Europe to attend.
Welcome to the fun! :)
Yay for a new fanfic writer.
Greetings from the UK - it's good to have you on board. As still a relatively newbie I can testify that the denizens of Rhemuth Castle are friendly.
Re Carthmoor:
I have discovered that I really do have a strong OCD streak. The fanfic I'm working on requires a brief visit to Carthmoor and I find myself wondering how does its economy work, etc. etc. Sheep, and therefore wool, inland I think, with a growing wool trade and possibly an incipient cloth trade along the Lendour river - the water being needed for washing the fleece and powering the fulling mills. (I said I was OCD!). On the South-west peninsula I am thinking Cornwall and tin mining and therefore trade even outside the map that we have. (Regarding Cornwall I once made the mistake of telling three Cornishmen that the legend that the boy Jesus came to Cornwall with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, was unlikely to be factually true. I fled for my life!!).
A capital on the south coast would make sense, maybe at the head of the inlet marked on the RPG map where Carthmoor proper merges into Old Mooryn, allowing for relatively easy sea transport to other major towns. Opposite Nyford would also work but you would then have the problem that nothing is mentioned in canon, whereas Nyford quite often is. I would think that the borders of the duchy would be the sea on the west and south, the Rhengarth river on the east and to the north the Lendour river running into the foothills of the Lendour mountains.
It would seem unlikely that there is a strong secessionist movement in Mooryn, given that Nigel as Duke of Carthmoor does not feel the need to spend any significant time there; I get the sense that it is a convenient source of income. A bit like the Duchy of Cornwall for the British heir to the throne.
I wonder if the population might be a little more developed than at 1066 in England given that on the whole the eleven kingdoms are about 2 centuries ahead of medieval Europe. At the onset of the Black Death in 1348 the population was about 4 million ( a figure that was not attained again until the late 16th century) so maybe about 3 million or so in the thirteenth century.
Thank you, Evie! I'll try to look in on the chat--- that sounds interesting.
Now--- let's see how the posting issue works out. I'll just avoid italics or anything exotic and see how it goes. Learning experiences are good things, I guess!
I've always been a map fanatic, so I'll see what I can do about a newer set of maps.
Welcome to the forum DrM. Please post away, please turn to Evie or DesertRose for any posting questions. They are fantastic about everything. (They and the many other good people here made me feel right at home about three years ago and now I feel like one of the Castle denizens.) I love maps too.
Revanne, I love your OCD. Carthmoor/Cornwall, Yes! Take me for a visit there. I always wanted to see more of England. (I was once in London for three days before I took a ferry to the continent and I did not get a chance to see the rest of England. I want to go again and do it right this time.) So any fanfic wandering the countryside showing us what it is like is welcome here.
I had not thought about tin mines being in the hills. Great addition! In 1025, I would not think the mines themselves would be very large, not as large as the Poldark Mines(BBC miniseries set in the 1700's) but I am now envisioning small mining/fishing villages along a rugged coast line.
As to the Carthmoor borders, I will disagree a little bit. On the east edge, I consider the border to be more in line with the Lendour mountains to the coastline south. About where St Noets is or where the beginning or the "M" is for the word Mooryn on the poster map. The Rengarth river is part of Corwyn. So in my mind most of the word Mooryn on the poster map is the lands of Corwyn. Tell me if you think otherwise.
Shiral, Thank you for reminding me about Dunluce. I knew Duke Richard had an castle/estate in Carthmoor, but I could not find/remember the reference. We are going to need to remember to ask KK in chat where in Carthmoor would we travel to find Dunluce. I consider Nyford to be in Carthane. Remember King Imer was bleeding the kingdom dry to build Nyford as the Capital when Camber said enough is enough. So the city would be of considerable size but very likely a very poor city when the building was abandoned and the humans would have shunned the Deryni interests there. Only sea trade would kept the city alive. With such circumstances, I am thinking Dunluce would be far from Nyford and more along the coastline, south of Abbyford, closer to St Perpetua listed on the Codex map. By that is just my guess.
On the signed limited edition Codex Map (which is easier to read than the paperback Codex Map), Dunluce is on the coast, andlooks as if it's on the eastern side of a little unnamed inlet/bay which would protect it somewhat from winter storms and high surf. This inlet is located on the coast a little east of Pt. Kintar (Kintal depending on spelling) and St. Ultan's Priory.
Melissa
Thank you, Shiral, I see where you mean. I penciled it onto my Codex map.
"As to the Carthmoor borders, I will disagree a little bit. On the east edge, I consider the border to be more in line with the Lendour mountains to the coastline south. About where St Noets is or where the beginning or the "M" is for the word Mooryn on the poster map. The Rengarth river is part of Corwyn. So in my mind most of the word Mooryn on the poster map is the lands of Corwyn. Tell me if you think otherwise.".
That makes sense - it looks as though there is a tributary of the Lendour river for quite a lot of the way between the mountains and the coast, which that line could follow.
Though tin was extensively mined in Cornwall from 2,000 BC, so mines could be quite large in the 12th century, just not mechanised
I did some research on medieval mines while writing Possessed. They weren't highly mechanized in the modern sense, of course, and couldn't go as deep, but they did have wooden machines designed to lower buckets into the shafts to bring the ore up, and other forms of technology consistent with the time period to make the job easier. It wasn't just men heading into caves with lanterns and pickaxes as one might think. They had ways of bringing ore up vertical mine shafts, creating drainage systems, etc. Look online for a translation of De Re Metallica (I think that's the right title) for more information and diagrams of medieval mining and the equipment used. I drew from that book when writing the setting for Sextus' and Stefan's final confrontation with Walter.
Thinking about the discussion and demonstration of water divining in QfSC I'm assuming that Deryni could sense the presence of ore and maybe as things got more dangerous it was another skill hidden under the coat-tails of Second Sight and as such accepted within mining communities. The ability to sense danger would be another priceless asset underground.
Yes, I can't imagine many miners denouncing a fellow miner whose danger sense had saved them all from an impending tunnel collapse or natural gas leak, even if that danger sense was due to innate Deryni powers. I'd think only the most fanatically magic-leery (Jehana or Loris, anyone?) would have qualms about that sort of use for a Deryni's natural instincts.
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ec0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F5e%2F61%2Fd4%2F5e61d436f0b95f55594c2f25ee465f8a.jpg&hash=45a1c473219e66c42bddfda92da4cf42888a08f3)
Dunluce Castle, Northern Ireland
You don't suppose..... they could find any Haldane artifacts there. ;) ;D
Quote from: Evie on April 15, 2016, 11:44:02 AM
Yes, I can't imagine many miners denouncing a fellow miner whose danger sense had saved them all from an impending tunnel collapse or natural gas leak, even if that danger sense was due to innate Deryni powers. I'd think only the most fanatically magic-leery (Jehana or Loris, anyone?) would have qualms about that sort of use for a Deryni's natural instincts.
It wouldn't necessarily be identified as "Deryni." Some humans have a natural instinct for that sort of thing, just as a person who seems to always know when he's being lied to might not necessarily be truth-reading.
I agree Elkhound, but I think the existence of such "extra senses" - variously called "second sight" or "sixth sense" would provide a cover for those who knew they were Deryni.
Wonderful pic, Laurna.
Quote from: Laurna on April 16, 2016, 01:17:20 AM
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ec0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F5e%2F61%2Fd4%2F5e61d436f0b95f55594c2f25ee465f8a.jpg&hash=45a1c473219e66c42bddfda92da4cf42888a08f3)
Dunluce Castle, Northern Ireland
You don't suppose..... they could find any Haldane artifacts there. ;) ;D
Let's go check and see. =o)
Melissa
My bags are packed and I'm ready to go. :)
Hop across the Irish Sea while you're there and I'll put the kettle on.
Naturally! Nothing like exploring/searching for Haldane artifacts in an abandoned castle to make one appreciate a spot of tea.
Melissa
In anticipation, I am sipping a little Irish Breakfast tea for dinner. ;D