I have always been fascinated at the relationship/ power dynamic between Morgan and Arilan. Yes, they are adversarial, have completely different motives and methods, and I know Morgan distrusts Arilan completely, and rightfully so.
But I would have loved to have Morgan and Arilan locked in a room that even Deryni magic couldn't release them from, until they had ironed out differences, or at least gotten a better understanding of each other.
Morgan views Arilan as almost a traitor for his loyalty to the Camberian Council, Even over his loyalty to Kelson. He also detests that Arilan persecuted members of the clergy for being Deryni, including Duncan, while hiding his own Deryni heritage.
For someone as loyal and brave as Morgan, Arilan would be viewed as cowardly.
Arilan sees Morgan as an untrained, half breed upstart who is close to and unflinchingly loyal to the crown, but an anathema to the Set ways if the Deryni.
Both Morgan and Arilan have control issues, and neither would ant the other having the upper hand in any way. Although Arilan is full Deryni and supposedly highly trained, and theoretically more powerful than Morgan, I think Arilan feels threatened by Morgan. Not just because Brion, then Kelson trust him implicitly, but because Morgan had to learn and develop his own powers, including the ability to heal. I believe in some ways Morgan May be more powerful than Arilan, despite being only half Deryni, and not formally trained.
Then there is Arilan's membership in the Council, which refuses to recognize Morgan or Duncan despite the fact that their abilities, including healing, surpass what would be expected of half breed Deryni.
The antipathy, and almost open hostility they displayed towards each other at times seems to have evolved into a reluctant comraderie, although I doubt Morgan will ever fully trust Arilan and vice versa.
Interesting, but Arilan did not persecute members of the clergy for being Deryni. In fact, he worked to protect them and to increase the number of Deryi clergy. Morgan and Duncan blamed Arilan for allowing the continued persecution of Deryni in Gwynedd without trying to do anything. They felt he should have acted sooner although he was the only Deryni priest/bishop in 200 years and he never completely forgave himself for not doing more or sooner. It is very hard to act alone. If he had tried, there is every possibility that he would have been discovered and lost any possibility of helping his people. Although they would never become close friends I think they did come to an understanding and work as allies later.
I think the Codex also at least hints that Denis was responsible for making Duncan's ordination possible, although Duncan himself was unaware of that. But that makes sense, assuming Denis knew that Duncan was Deryni at the time. Denis watched his best friend get burned at the stake for being a Deryni who dared to try to get ordained into the priesthood. He only narrowly (and possibly through divine intervention, or at least his story can be read that way) managed to escape the merasha-trap to be ordained himself. So if he did know or suspect ahead of time that Duncan was Deryni, he would have done what he could to eliminate that threat for Duncan, if there was any way to do so without revealing his own secret. And it's very clear that he did the same thing for John Nivard and several other younger (though unnamed in canon) priests who came along in the years after Duncan was ordained. Denis Arilan was taking a longer view than Morgan and Duncan, though. He was a half generation older, had survived some of the worst years of persecution under De Nore, and knew how much was at stake not just for himself and his family but for others as well if he (and the other Arilans) were discovered to be Deryni, so that made him a lot more risk-averse than Alaric, whose Deryni heritage had been known since he was born and couldn't be concealed even if he'd wanted to hide it, so he had less to lose by taking risks.
I think Arilan resents Morgan for failing to understand the tightrope he has had to walk and in the period in which we first meet them he is increasingly anxious about Morgan's influence on Duncan. I'm sure that their relationship mellowed in time though I doubt Morgan ever fully forgave Arilan for the humiliation of Dhassa.
I think you have a good point, Revanne. In truth, both Morgan and Arilan each have valid reasons if not to resent each other, then at least find the other irritating. Arilan, for all the reasons you've stated. As Bishop of Dhassa in Kelson's reign with two Archbishops who are reasonable and intelligent men, Arilan's current position in the church seems fairly secure. But he has an exceedingly good reason to know the history of the Church and Deryni has been far more hostile for most of his life. He probably sleeps a lot better at night than he did as a young priest, but caution is inbred in him, even as he is making full but discreet use of his opportunities to ordain new young Deryni priests. Alaric, he knows, was well, if not completely protected by the Haldanes, but probably thinks he's incautious, and very likely thought the younger Morgan too hot headed to realize how precarious his position in Gwynedd really was.
Morgan, for his part, had to negotiate a pretty inhospitable court most of his life. Yes, he has more freedom (not least as a secular lord rather than a priest), but that "more" is probably very relative. For his part, he knows that Gwynedd's clergy would have loved to find some--any--excuse to burn him at the stake, and that he could go only SO far under Brion's protection. He and Arilan both want to make Gwynedd safer for Deryni, but after successfully reaching the age of 30, Alaric probably feels Arilan is way too uptight, even given they've both had to tread with care in their respective lives. And he resents suddenly having someone on his back, reining him in as if he were still under age.
Morgan and Arilan have just enough difference in age, generational mindset and being in different positions(not just societal),that their personal animosity/respect is all too much not to be expected. Add to that the exposed/goading to hidden/hiding aspect, plus the added personal experiences of both in relationship to that difference and not just because of being deryni
It that love hate they have going which makes for perfect situations that neither can truly fathom.
Morgan's way of thinking it in my opinion is b&w. Now if Morgan had to actually walk in Arilan's shoes, he would definitely have a different perspective....
Same could be said for Arilan to walk in Morgan's.
I think that at least one part of the issue is that Arilan, having hidden his Deryni status, was not facing the sort of petty sniping Morgan dealt with as a matter of course. Arilan was faced with an all or nothing situation - if his secret was revealed, he and his family were doomed. Morgan was free to fight back, albeit with sharp tongue and discreet tricks - he could vent. But for Arilan, Deryni have to band together in secret and division is deeply dangerous.
And unfortunately, when Arilan takes the Camberian Council position of 'you're not really Deryni but we're in charge of you anyway' what Morgan feels is that he's dealing with another priest condemning him for things he can't control, and responds with verbal jabs and polite defiance - which in turn hits all Arilan's buttons for 'rogue deryni who must be reined in for the good of all'.
I'm not saying this is their intellectual position, but I think it's their emotional one.
I think a major problem with them is lack of communication. Neither one fully understands the experiences or position of the other. In effect, Arilan comes from a different era than Morgan, much closer to the harrowing and the hunting down and destroying of Deryni. I'm not sure when they finally determined that Deryniness is all or nothing, either you are or you are not and it is not determined by the number of Deryni ancestors you have. I also think that seeing the burning of Jorian affected Morgan porfoundly, he could not understand why, once he discovered Arilan was Deryni, he did nothing to intervene. There was a wide gap there that took many years to span.
Jorian's burning was a pivotal event for both of them, since Denis was in the seminary class right behind Jorian's, so there was a very real fear that he would also be discovered and suffer the same fate. Jorian's death shook up Alaric because, while I think he had seen the aftermath of Deryni burnings before then, that was the first burning he'd been forced to watch. But in Denis' case, it was more personal, not just because he also had been forced to watch it, but also because Jorian was his friend.
Yet Morgan had to deal with his Deryniness constantly without benefit of being hidden, family and religious connections. Always in the open, constantly being taunted to his face and behind his back, in danger always because of being known. Not to mention his mother and that heritage. He was never a child because of Brion's father for starters and his grooming him for a certain role. Also Arilan snobbiness towards Duncan and him, simply because he was "merely" half deryni. Personally I think if it came down to a duel arcane, my money would be on Morgan because of all that.
I agree that their issues go beyind generational ones. I dislike Arilan because he is so judgmental of Morgan. It's not like Morgan was out flaunting his powers, using them carelessly. But Morgan had a target on his back even before his birth. Everyone knew what he was, and either sniped at him, or condemned him, or outright tried to burn him. Arilan acts like Morgan ran around doing magic out in the open on a whim. Morgan never had the option to be secretive like Arilan did.
I do think Morgan was circumspect in the use of his magic, using it only when there was no choice, like helping Brion defeat the Marluk. Morgan always tried to be as discreet as he could be, given the task that he was literally conceived to do- protect Brion and Arilan was judging him for doing what he was destined to do.
I also think that Arilan's attitude toward Morgan was personally poor, even beyond the dictates of the Camberian Council. Arilan felt himself better than Alaric because he was full Deryni and Alaric was only a " half breed." He condemned Alaric for something over which Alaric had no control.
I felt like Arilan, who is a clergyman, should have had the empathy to realize how difficult it was for Morgan to even survive, let alone do what he did for Brion and Gwynedd. Arilan never said. " hey I don't agree with how openly you have used your powers. But I understand the difficulties you have overcome and the excellent job you have done for Gwynedd despite those difficulties." Clergy are supposed to have some degree of compassion and empathy. Duncan certainly does. ARilan does not. He supports the Camberian Council's position that Alaric is somehow required to obey the CC even though they refuse to recognize or sanction him and Duncan.
Also, Morgan has the gift of healing- something thought to be lost to Deryni for generations. The CC should be embracing that.
Arilan and the CC also seem resentful that Morgan is so skilled at magic, despite having very little training, and no formal training. I think they feel threatened by that.
I agree that the execution of Jorian deeply affected Morgan his entire life. He never actually spoke to anyone about his feelings about seeing one of his own kind burned at the stake, but it had to have profoundly affected him, especially at such a young age. He just buried it deep and never even had a chance to try to process it ( if one can even begin to process something that horrific.) It reminded him that there were so many people who wanted him to be burned. I know Arilan was friends with Jorian, and that made the burning even worse for him. But all the more reason for Arilan to have been sympathetic to Morgan in Dhassa. Morgan had barely escaped being burned at the stake himself just as Jorian had been. One would expect a clergyman who was also Deryni and who had witnessed such a horrific travesty would be even slightly sympathetic to Morgan, who barley escaped the same fate. Instead, he is pompous, and humiliates Morgan, acting as though he is a parent scolding Morgan the wayward child.
I also think Arilan resents how close Morgan is to Duncan, and how Arilan seems to feel that Morgan has corrupted Duncan and put him in danger as well. Let's face it- even if Morgan had tried to keep Duncan out of the dangerous use of Magic, Duncan would still dive right in.
Arilan, I think, is also somewhat resentful of the bond between Morgan and Kelson, and the unwavering love and trust between them. And I think That is why he encourages the CC to court Kelson, even though he too is only half Deryni.
Morgan seems to resent Arilan for his split loyalties. Morgan's point of view is black and white. He is loyal to Kelson and the crown of Gwynedd. Full stop. He was even loyal to Connall after they thought Kelson was dead and Connal became king. Morgan was willing to serve Conall, whom he didn't like, because he was king. Right up until they discovered Connall was a traitor. Loyalty to Gwynedd. End of story.
I think Morgan resents Arilan often seeming to put the needs and dictates of the CC over the needs of Gwynedd. I think he will never totally trust Arilan because he will never know if Arilan's motive is to help the Council at the expense of the throne of Gwynedd.
I apologize to any Arilan fans, but as you can see, he is one of my least favorite characters for how badly he treats Morgan.
I think that both of them had much to overcome and it was part of their upbringing. Arilan was literally raised in fear of being discovered and if he was discovered he would be executed and never be able to help his people at all. And though I am often angry with Arilan, even then i can see why he feels that he has do things a certain way. He had to kill a man at age 12 during an attack on Brion before he was crowned. And he had to navigate a hostile clergy. Alaric had to face difficulties too but he had some advantages: he had the protection of the king, in his time there was a shift in the attitude of the church and quite a few of the most rabid anti-deryni clergy were gone. I think that much of what we see is a focus on survival which was a fact of life for both..
I like and understand where Arilan is coming from, BUT I understand Morgan's view also. Still ultimately in my "humble" opinion, Arilan has the stick too far up his ass towards Morgan
Agreed
Quote from: reiki deryni on February 23, 2023, 12:37:35 AMI like and understand where Arilan is coming from, BUT I understand Morgan's view also. Still ultimately in my "humble" opinion, Arilan has the stick too far up his ass towards Morgan
I agree, Reiki Deryni. I also understand Arilan's POV, but I agree his attitude toward
Morgan is cocky and judgemental. Particularly from a member of the clergy, Arilan should have had more compassion and empathy in Dhassa. Morgan had narrowly been saved from being burned at the stake and all Arilan focuses on is destroying the shrine. Yes, I would have understood that attitude in public, but Arilan humiliated him in private about it too.
While I get Arilan's " long view" that flagrant use of Magic hurts the Deryni cause long term, Arilan fails to realize that Without Morgan using his magic, Gwynedd as they know it would not exist. There would be no Kelson because The Marluk would have killed Brion without Morgan's magic.
I also think that Morgan has not and maybe cannot forgive Arilan for not doing something to help Jorian from being burned. Alaric the boy wanted to intervene to try to prevent it, but didn't have the power or knowledge at that time. Imagine how he felt about someone who HAD the knowledge and power failing to help.
I would almost venture to say that self taught Morgan, now imbued with the power to heal, may be more of a powerful Deryni than Arilan or his council.
In my view, I get Arilan's reasons, but his treatment of Morgan is wrong.
I'm very late into this chat. I always thought Morgan was pretty hard done by because he was only half Deryni and not a full one; yet despite that, it looks like Morgan is more powerful and he's had to learn it all by himself. The CC have been very narrow minded. You're either a Deryni or you're not. Morgan may only be half Deryni, but he IS a Deryni and he has the power. The poor duke has had a target on his back since before he was born, whereas Arilan's heritage was secret. Yes, he's had to work on keeping it that way.
It's a miracle Morgan has turned out to be the man he has. He has never really known who he really is, because be's been 'bred' to be what everyone else wants him to be.
Arilan could have done more for both Morgan and Duncan. The CC seems a bit snobbish about being a whole Deryni. At least that's what I feel.
Quote from: Stitcher001 on January 01, 2024, 02:50:38 PMThe CC have been very narrow minded.
Insert meme picture: "You don't say". ;D
I totally agree that the Cambrian Council is narrow minded, high minded, and a few other terms that have to be removed due to politeness.
Can perform colonoscopies on themselves by turning their heads.
Quote from: tmcd on January 02, 2024, 01:42:23 PMCan perform colonoscopies on themselves by turning their heads.
I got myself in a spot of trouble on an official SCA Zoom meeting by saying that some people needed to correct their cranio-rectal inversion.
(Privately I was told I wasn't wrong but perhaps ought to run ideas past my brain before letting them pass my lips. ;D ;D )
Those who took issue with your analogy, they may very well be the ones doing it to themselves ;D
For years, the Camberian Council has collectively behaved as if they had sat down on something sharp. I really couldn't blame Kelson for not leaping at the opportunity to serve on it. And they took offense when he turned them down. I thought they might have stopped and thought about his possible reasons for declining. Kelson might well feel that he when he took his coronation oath, that was the most solemn pledge he's ever given. And he feels that his responsibility to his Kingdom supersedes all other duties. It wouldn't be surprising if he felt this way, since his whole childhood was focused on preparing him for Kingship, while he only even learned of the Camberian Council's existence after he'd already become King. Feeling that Gwynedd comes first for him and he didn't want to be placed in any possible conflicts of interest is a pretty natural and sensible conclusion for him to have drawn. I do think Arilan and the rest of the CC members ought to have been more respectful of that.
Melissa
Shiral, I think part of the answer of why Kelson told the Council to bugger off was by way of his suggestion that they seat Alaric or Duncan instead, as much as his duty as King. Since the beginning of their (Kelson, Morgan & Duncan) encounters with the Council, it's been one of being looked down upon by most of the Council's collective noses at them in some fashion. Kelson sense of righteousness and fairness would surely be tweaked at the very least.
Quote from: ReikiDeryni on January 15, 2024, 03:31:00 PMShiral, I think part of the answer of why Kelson told the Council to bugger off was by way of his suggestion that they seat Alaric or Duncan instead, as much as his duty as King. Since the beginning of their (Kelson, Morgan & Duncan) encounters with the Council, it's been one of being looked down upon by most of the Council's collective noses at them in some fashion. Kelson sense of righteousness and fairness would surely be tweaked at the very least.
I very much agree with that last point.
I tend to think that the abrasiveness between Morgan and Arilan is unavoidable and is to be expected. It would be strange if this conflict was not there. They are representatives of different power centers found within Deryni society. As the matter stands, Morgan for the royal, and Arilan for the council, and so, at times, they must be adversaries. In a medieval society, such conflict is to be expected concerning those that are jealous and ever-guarding of their power. I think that the Camberian Council is functioning as a quasi-governing institution, an unelected parliament checking the royal power of the kings within the Eleven Kingdoms. I think of them having long established rights and prerogatives.
I think that the Council should not be looked upon too harshly. I think it is merely human (Deryni) nature. With their claims, and likely superior knowledge of Deryni magic, they would tend to look down on those not part of their number or having their magical knowledge.
I think that it would also be naive of any king, such as King Kelson, trying to get one of his representatives, such as Morgan, onto their Council. Why would that Council allow that, in effect allowing a king to monitor its affairs and seek to veto its operations? Not all kings would be as wise as Kelson. In the final analysis, Kelson, I think, needs Morgan as a witan within his own privy council. I think that's where he'd be more useful to him there.
There's the whole question of exactly what powers the Council is asserting. What exactly does it *do*? What powers (and how much power) does it claim over individual Deryni? How far does it claim its powers reach? Gwynedd (and maybe the Forcinn)? All the Eleven Kingdoms? And what kind of legitimacy does it have? The Council seems to co-opt replacement members without consulting anyone. It seems to have agents and enforcers, but to whom is the Council accountable? That's all a mystery.
Quote from: DoctorM on January 27, 2024, 06:42:36 PMThere's the whole question of exactly what powers the Council is asserting. What exactly does it *do*? What powers (and how much power) does it claim over individual Deryni? How far does it claim its powers reach? Gwynedd (and maybe the Forcinn)? All the Eleven Kingdoms? And what kind of legitimacy does it have? The Council seems to co-opt replacement members without consulting anyone. It seems to have agents and enforcers, but to whom is the Council accountable? That's all a mystery.
It exerts power over the whole of the 11 Kingdoms. As it has warned Torenthi Kings not to interfere in the workings of Gwynedd. It's members range from across the 11 Kingdoms as well.
The claim to legitimacy is the founding members were mostly Camber's Heirs and he was one
of the greatest Deryni mages in recent memory. And the restorer of the Haldane line. It must have some legitimacy since Wencit was going to use the fake Council Members as his moderators to the Duel Arcane he planned with Kelson. If it had no legitimacy then Wencit wouldn't have bothered at all. They also have 200 years of being known built up.
They are self-governing and self-appointed from within. They answer to no one outside of themselves.
Their power, at least by the time of Kelson anyway seems to be mostly by the individual's consent. Also what has been written shows there has been multiple incidents of defiance by individuals pretty much since the establishment of the Council.
I interpret the Camberian Council primarily functioning as an underground resistance organization fighting against those who would oppress both human and Deryni.
I think that their power is based upon what Bynw has already observed, the religious sentiments of the Deryni. They are also powerful Deryni mages. I also believe that they have an active espionage net throughout the Eleven Kingdoms. I also believe that the effectiveness of this net waxes and wanes over time. I do not think that the Council is simply a "talk shop".
I also think that they can, to a limited extent, undertake active measures involving sabotage and assassination, if they think that a situation is dire enough. Active measures, I think, would be aimed more at humans rather than Deryni, given the latter are more dangerous in an individual combat.
With this understanding, I do not think that the Council would have active operational control but would have underlings performing those operations. Below them would be the case officers (to use modern parlance) who would run the agents.
I think that the Council was largely Evaine's creation. Since it is a clandestine religious establishment, it will be more circumspect than other religious establishments, such as a medieval inquisition seeking raw, naked power. I believe the Council was, and is, specifically designed to fight any political and religious inquisition, both human and Deryni.
I think that the Council has value and should be viewed more positively.
I think that that was how it was set up but over the years there has been a tendency for some Council members to see the power they wield as an end in itself. Because that's what people, Deryni or human, tend to do.
Salic, I think it was as much Camber's as anyone else's, especially after finding that treasure trove of scrolls and the hidden/abandoned chamber in Grecotha. If I recall rightly, it started with a side discussion between Camber, Evaine and Joram while in that chamber. It was to help keep wayward and dangerous Deryni in check as much as possible. The rituals, oaths and powers of the Camberian Council started from there. By the time of Kelson we know from what is written and said by several characters that the Council is not what it used to be by a long shot
Quote from: ReikiDeryni on February 03, 2024, 11:32:39 PMSalic, I think it was as much Camber's as anyone else's, especially after finding that treasure trove of scrolls and the hidden/abandoned chamber in Grecotha. If I recall rightly, it started with a side discussion between Camber, Evaine and Joram while in that chamber. It was to help keep wayward and dangerous Deryni in check as much as possible. The rituals, oaths and powers of the Camberian Council started from there. By the time of Kelson we know from what is written and said by several characters that the Council is not what it used to be by a long shot
I would agree, ReikiDeryni, that institutions change over time. It is unavoidable given that institutions must change over time to remain relevant. We can note how King Kelson strove to change the church from what it was under the Council of Ramos that condemned the Deryni. I would also agree that there are also deficiencies in the people who have occupied the Camberian Council much as in the various human and Deryni dynasties. In a medieval period, there is little to check the power of the kings, nobles and clergy, and so it is easy for social elites to do as they wish.
I like to put myself in the place of a person living in this society. At this point, would I want to have a monarchy or nobility unchecked in power? I would not. Would I want a church unchecked in power? No, I would want the king or nobles have some check on it's power. Given the structure of human/Deryni social relationships, I think Camber and Evaine's idea of the need for an institution, which could serve as a counterweight to the church and nobility is essentially sound. Regrettably, human/Deryni society has not yet developed a representative Parliament that includes the merchants and landed gentry that could bring a more rational order to that society.
Silac, unfortunately we only have hints of what happened to the Council and the "religious" aspects after the end of the Heirs of Camber trilogy in the later era trilogies and books with which to wonder and judge. In Yoda-speak...pondered much I have that.
Quote from: ReikiDeryni on February 07, 2024, 11:21:43 AMSilac, unfortunately we only have hints of what happened to the Council and the "religious" aspects after the end of the Heirs of Camber trilogy in the later era trilogies and books with which to wonder and judge. In Yoda-speak...pondered much I have that.
I would agree, ReikiDeryni. Sociologically considered, for most authoritarian systems, the truth of something is tied to the power structure and morphs as that structure changes. I'm inclined to view the human/Deryni society society in the same way. I do not read the Deryni Canon as something that should be taken at face value. I think that there's much more going on in the writings of Katherine Kurtz. An author's words always extends further than its surface meaning. I think the words beckon us to consider more about them.