We have seen how Deryni healers can cure acute illnesses and various injuries, but have any of the stories shown how a Deryni Healer can help manage chronic conditions such as diabetes or arthritis, or a degenerative condition like Parkensons or MS?
Would chronic conditions like arthritis and diabetes even exist, as we know them, after diagnosis? I would think that once someone started to complain about arthritic pain, for example, the healer after examination could return the joints to their correct anatomical size/proportion thus eliminating or greatly reducing the symptoms. I would think something similar would happen with diabetes. The organs causing the diabetes would be "sensed" and not funtioning correctly and the function would be corrected. Completely healing genetic conditions probably was not possible but the effects probably were greatly reduced. Wish there was a healer that could decrease my shoulder pain :o
That might work with osteoarthritis, but not for rheumatic arthritis, gout, or fibromyalgia. And diabetes, at least Type II, can cause a lot of damage and still be asymptomatic; by the time there are symptoms, it is usually fairly advanced--and would a Healer have occasion to look unless the patient complained of some symptoms?
Good point about the diabetes, I wonder though if a healer might sense diabetes, whether a person complains of symptoms or not. I assume (we all know what kind of trouble you can get into assuming) that during their training, healers worked with enough "normal" bodies/patients that a person with diabetes or gout or any other systemic disease might 'feel' different.
I suppose Javan's clubfoot could be considered a chronic condition, but Tavis couldn't Heal it.
Quote from: Valentius on May 24, 2009, 07:30:58 PM
Good point about the diabetes, I wonder though if a healer might sense diabetes, whether a person complains of symptoms or not. I assume (we all know what kind of trouble you can get into assuming) that during their training, healers worked with enough "normal" bodies/patients that a person with diabetes or gout or any other systemic disease might 'feel' different.
If a person's family had a history of one of these systemic disorders--a better word, really than 'disease'--a healer who knew what to look for might sense it before it became symptomatic.
Quote from: the Bee on May 24, 2009, 07:57:14 PM
I suppose Javan's clubfoot could be considered a chronic condition, but Tavis couldn't Heal it.
Correct, but he did manage Javan's pain and discomfort to a degree. Could Tavis have reduced the clubbing and improved Javan's function were he better trained? Bells are going off in the back of my mind that Tavis was not as well qualified as he could have been. Seem to recall Queron questioning Tavis' healing credentials at one point.
We also need to remember that the Deryni Suppression is occuring at that point in time. How would the Regents have twisted Javan's healing for their own purpose if he were healed? Who knows what healing could have been done by a healer as skilled as Queron had he been given access to Javan as an infant and toddler? Perhaps the clubbing of his foot could have been reduced to such a degree as to have been made inconsequential. I think KK might have had a more difficult time with the Suppression if Javan had been as able as we all(?) (I) would have liked.
Humbly,
Valentius
I don't think a Healer's gifts extend to being able to grow new body parts. Javan came in to the world the way he did, and Tavis couldn't change that. Nor could Tavis regrow his own hand after it was cut off; he could only heal the wound and control his own physical trauma and bleeding. (Which is a pretty big thing, as blood loss alone could have been life-threatening.) What Tavis could do for Javan was make him as healthy as it was possible for him to be, and to ease his pain when Javan was pushed too hard by his tutors.
Melissa
Quote from: Valentius on May 30, 2009, 09:43:58 AM
Correct, but he did manage Javan's pain and discomfort to a degree. Could Tavis have reduced the clubbing and improved Javan's function were he better trained? Bells are going off in the back of my mind that Tavis was not as well qualified as he could have been. Seem to recall Queron questioning Tavis' healing credentials at one point.
We also need to remember that the Deryni Suppression is occuring at that point in time. How would the Regents have twisted Javan's healing for their own purpose if he were healed? Who knows what healing could have been done by a healer as skilled as Queron had he been given access to Javan as an infant and toddler? Perhaps the clubbing of his foot could have been reduced to such a degree as to have been made inconsequential. I think KK might have had a more difficult time with the Suppression if Javan had been as able as we all(?) (I) would have liked.
I think that Javan's club foot was not something that could have been fixed by the Healers at that time. Tavis may not have been as well trained as some, but during Cinhil's life (until Javan was 10 or 12?), Rhys (and Camber/Alister and ...) would have had access to Javan. I'm sure that Camber/Alister would have suggested the Healing of Javan's foot to Cinhil had he thought it possible. And I'm sure that Rhys would have said something to Camber had he thought it possible.
Kathleen
Quote from: lenni on May 30, 2009, 07:57:36 PM
Quote from: Valentius on May 30, 2009, 09:43:58 AM
Correct, but he did manage Javan's pain and discomfort to a degree. Could Tavis have reduced the clubbing and improved Javan's function were he better trained? Bells are going off in the back of my mind that Tavis was not as well qualified as he could have been. Seem to recall Queron questioning Tavis' healing credentials at one point.
We also need to remember that the Deryni Suppression is occuring at that point in time. How would the Regents have twisted Javan's healing for their own purpose if he were healed? Who knows what healing could have been done by a healer as skilled as Queron had he been given access to Javan as an infant and toddler? Perhaps the clubbing of his foot could have been reduced to such a degree as to have been made inconsequential. I think KK might have had a more difficult time with the Suppression if Javan had been as able as we all(?) (I) would have liked.
I think that Javan's club foot was not something that could have been fixed by the Healers at that time. Tavis may not have been as well trained as some, but during Cinhil's life (until Javan was 10 or 12?), Rhys (and Camber/Alister and ...) would have had access to Javan. I'm sure that Camber/Alister would have suggested the Healing of Javan's foot to Cinhil had he thought it possible. And I'm sure that Rhys would have said something to Camber had he thought it possible.
Kathleen
And during Cinhil's rule, Rhys was the personal Healer to the Haldane royal family; if it could have been done, Rhys probably could have done it, and if not, I'm sure he could have called in Dom Queron or Dom Emrys or
something.
I don't think the Healers could do much about chronic conditions. Cinhil and Alroy died of what I suspect was consumption/tuberculosis, amd the best the Healers could do was forestall death, not cure the disease. Same with Archbishop Anscom, he had an ulcer. Perhaps the Healers lacked the knowledge of disease mechanisms that accumulated over time. I bet a 20th or 21st century Healer probably COULD Heal these chronic conditions. I'd suspect the ones of Rhys and Emrys and Queron's time could Heal these conditions, too, if they'd been given the knowledge we have now. Even a lay person not working in the medical field in our time could probably give them a great deal of valuable information. It would be a fun fanfic!
Quote from: Valentius on May 24, 2009, 07:30:58 PM
Good point about the diabetes, I wonder though if a healer might sense diabetes, whether a person complains of symptoms or not. I assume (we all know what kind of trouble you can get into assuming) that during their training, healers worked with enough "normal" bodies/patients that a person with diabetes or gout or any other systemic disease might 'feel' different.
That's certainly possible. I'm guessing that with Type II, where the body is still producing insulin, just not enough, or defective insulin that didn't work properly, the healer might be able 'jump start' the pancreas back to normal functioning if the disease hadn't progressed too much. But for Type I, where the pancreas just shuts down, I doubt it.
With Tavis' severed hand, if the hand had been preserved and another skilled healer had gotten to it quickly, could it have been re-attached as surgeons can now?
I was not suggesting that Tavis' hand could have been "re-generated". I agree with Elkhound that IF the hand could have been found it might have been reattached.
In regard to Javan's foot, I guess I was applying my 20/21 century thinking to 9/10 century medecine. We know that the healers had a good grasp of anatomy, my thought was that they might reshape the bones and musculature to "fix" it. We know that they (healers) could cause tissue to grow. I also wonder if they just did not think of it. I am not intimating that they were stupid, on the contrary we know they were quite bright. I also wonder if they might have considered it and ruled it out because of the potential enery drain on the healers.
Doing a few minutes of research on club foot it is a correctable condition with today's medical knowledge even without surgery or very minimal surgery involved. So a Healer with the right knowledge would have been able to fix Javan's condition.
Quote from: Bynw on June 03, 2009, 06:08:36 PM
Doing a few minutes of research on club foot it is a correctable condition with today's medical knowledge even without surgery or very minimal surgery involved. So a Healer with the right knowledge would have been able to fix Javan's condition.
I may be mistaken, but isn't the procedure to break the bones in the foot and realign them properly? I seem to remember something in canon that you can't Heal bone, only soft tissue; you can manipulate the broken bones into the right position and then Heal the soft tissue around them, but that bone being partially non-living must heal on its own.
I did a quick look on the net(nothing comprehensive or in depth) and it seems that with infants it's more of realigning the achilles tendon and then stretching the muscles/tendons/ligaments of the foot.
I wonder if a newborn's bones could be reshaped if necessary. I don't know about feet but the bones in the head are more cartilaginous than bone, to help with birth I know. Since there is such rapid growth in the first 3+/- years of life I wonder if bone might be influenced/reshaped at that age? Have to ask KK for her input if I can get here when she's here some time.
KK was premed undergrad, wasn't she?
Quote from: Elkhound on June 09, 2009, 10:16:07 PM
KK was premed undergrad, wasn't she?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that she did soe pre-med work.
I checked; she did Chemistry for her BS and had a year of medical school.
Could a Healer deal with Lupus, or Lou Gherig's Disease, or MS?
Since Lupus is an auto-immune disease I think that a healer might be able to deal effectively with it. As has been discussed previously, MS and ALS being genetic probably only could have symptoms lessened and but not healed. Just my $0.02.
Valentius
Quote from: Valentius on June 03, 2009, 10:29:13 AM
I was not suggesting that Tavis' hand could have been "re-generated". I agree with Elkhound that IF the hand could have been found it might have been reattached.
Didn't Javan hold on to Tavis' hand, hoping it could be reattached? IIRC they couldn't find a Healer in time, and then someone cauterized the stump.
Javan put the hand inside his tunic to keep it warm, thinking that would preserve its life force; if he'd known to put it on ice, maybe it could still have been reattached once they found a Healer.
Quote from: the Bee on July 11, 2009, 12:00:00 AM
if he'd known to put it on ice, maybe it could still have been reattached once they found a Healer.
And where would he have gotten ice? Refrigeration technology was a long way off.
Quote from: Elkhound on July 11, 2009, 08:18:46 PM
Quote from: the Bee on July 11, 2009, 12:00:00 AM
if he'd known to put it on ice, maybe it could still have been reattached once they found a Healer.
And where would he have gotten ice? Refrigeration technology was a long way off.
I've wondered about that too. Maybe he could have found a cold spring or a well. But Javan didn't know he needed to keep the hand cold. :(
I remember when we were in Ireland in a July the 1970s, my father asked for ice in his drink. The waitress said, "And where would I be gettin' ice this time of the year." Hence, even in advanced countries (although I know some English folk who would say that Ireland doesn't count ::)), ice is not universally available.
But even if it had been, Javan--in common with most people then--wouldn't have known the importance of keeping the hand cold.
Quote from: Valentius on May 19, 2009, 05:10:10 PM
Would chronic conditions like arthritis and diabetes even exist, as we know them, after diagnosis? <snip> Completely healing genetic conditions probably was not possible but the effects probably were greatly reduced. Wish there was a healer that could decrease my shoulder pain :o
Me, too!
Quote from: Valentius on May 30, 2009, 09:43:58 AM
Quote from: the Bee on May 24, 2009, 07:57:14 PM
I suppose Javan's clubfoot could be considered a chronic condition, but Tavis couldn't Heal it.
Correct, but he did manage Javan's pain and discomfort to a degree. Could Tavis have reduced the clubbing and improved Javan's function were he better trained? Bells are going off in the back of my mind that Tavis was not as well qualified as he could have been. Seem to recall Queron questioning Tavis' healing credentials at one point.
We also need to remember that the Deryni Suppression is occuring at that point in time. How would the Regents have twisted Javan's healing for their own purpose if he were healed? Who knows what healing could have been done by a healer as skilled as Queron had he been given access to Javan as an infant and toddler? Perhaps the clubbing of his foot could have been reduced to such a degree as to have been made inconsequential. I think KK might have had a more difficult time with the Suppression if Javan had been as able as we all(?) (I) would have liked.
Humbly,
Valentius
Ooooh, that sounds like the seeds of a fan fiction. What an interesting concept. We know that Healers could heal almost anything, provided they got to it in time. Otoh, Cinhil was so busy seeing Javan's clubfoot as "punishment" for his "sin" that he wouldn't have let anybody mess with it. Remember the medieval mindset.
Quote from: Shiral on May 30, 2009, 12:49:16 PM
I don't think a Healer's gifts extend to being able to grow new body parts. Javan came in to the world the way he did, and Tavis couldn't change that. Nor could Tavis regrow his own hand after it was cut off; he could only heal the wound and control his own physical trauma and bleeding. (Which is a pretty big thing, as blood loss alone could have been life-threatening.) What Tavis could do for Javan was make him as healthy as it was possible for him to be, and to ease his pain when Javan was pushed too hard by his tutors.
Melissa
No, wait, Melissa. I think if Rhys or another highly-qualified Healer had gotten there swiftly enough, they could have saved Tavis' hand. Javan certainly thought so. Why else would he have wrapped it up in his shirt sleeve and tried to keep it warm for a Healer? There's definitely more than a suggestion that it could have been reattached.
Not regrow it, no. But reattach it? Looks likely.
Quote from: JulianneTK on August 06, 2009, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: Valentius on May 30, 2009, 09:43:58 AM
Quote from: the Bee on May 24, 2009, 07:57:14 PM
I suppose Javan's clubfoot could be considered a chronic condition, but Tavis couldn't Heal it.
Correct, but he did manage Javan's pain and discomfort to a degree. Could Tavis have reduced the clubbing and improved Javan's function were he better trained? Bells are going off in the back of my mind that Tavis was not as well qualified as he could have been. Seem to recall Queron questioning Tavis' healing credentials at one point.
We also need to remember that the Deryni Suppression is occuring at that point in time. How would the Regents have twisted Javan's healing for their own purpose if he were healed? Who knows what healing could have been done by a healer as skilled as Queron had he been given access to Javan as an infant and toddler? Perhaps the clubbing of his foot could have been reduced to such a degree as to have been made inconsequential. I think KK might have had a more difficult time with the Suppression if Javan had been as able as we all(?) (I) would have liked.
Humbly,
Valentius
Ooooh, that sounds like the seeds of a fan fiction. What an interesting concept. We know that Healers could heal almost anything, provided they got to it in time. Otoh, Cinhil was so busy seeing Javan's clubfoot as "punishment" for his "sin" that he wouldn't have let anybody mess with it. Remember the medieval mindset.
Tavis took his Healer training with the Varnarites, who apparently were not quite so thorough as the Gabrilites or even the Michaelines in training Healers. However, when Alroy and Javan were born, Rhys Thuryn was the Healer to the Haldane royal family. I should think that if any Healer would have been able to correct Javan's clubfoot, Rhys would have been able to do so, or if he hadn't been able but had known it could be done, he might have called Dom Queron or Dom Emrys. Dom Queron was pretty obviously a HIGHLY skilled Healer in addition to (as we saw in <i>Harrowing</i>) an accomplished ceremonial adept, and while we never saw Dom Emrys exercise his Deryni power too often, except for his heroic and tragic last act of destroying the St. Neot's Portal, he clearly commanded a great deal of respect from Healers and the highly-trained Deryni of his time. I believe KK says in <i>Deryni Magic</i> that Dom Emrys was one of the foremost if not THE foremost Deryni adept of his time. If, between the three of them (the most well-known secular Healer and two of the most renowned ecclesiastical Healers of their time), they couldn't do it, I'm inclined to think that it couldn't be done, or at least the Healers of the time did not know how to do it.
Quote from: JulianneTK on August 06, 2009, 03:05:20 PM
Quote from: Shiral on May 30, 2009, 12:49:16 PM
I don't think a Healer's gifts extend to being able to grow new body parts. Javan came in to the world the way he did, and Tavis couldn't change that. Nor could Tavis regrow his own hand after it was cut off; he could only heal the wound and control his own physical trauma and bleeding. (Which is a pretty big thing, as blood loss alone could have been life-threatening.) What Tavis could do for Javan was make him as healthy as it was possible for him to be, and to ease his pain when Javan was pushed too hard by his tutors.
Melissa
No, wait, Melissa. I think if Rhys or another highly-qualified Healer had gotten there swiftly enough, they could have saved Tavis' hand. Javan certainly thought so. Why else would he have wrapped it up in his shirt sleeve and tried to keep it warm for a Healer? There's definitely more than a suggestion that it could have been reattached.
Not regrow it, no. But reattach it? Looks likely.
Certainly an uninjured Healer on the site could have reattached the hand, the wound being so recent. Clearly Javan was operating on that theory when he saved the hand. It was simply Tavis' misfortune that it took so long to find an available Healer to help him. IN his own injured state, he couldn't adequately help himself.
Melissa
I'm going to be riding in West Virginia's Multiple Sclerosis ride come August http://tinyurl.com/WVMSRideBAW (http://tinyurl.com/WVMSRideBAW); in connection with that, I've been reading up on MS. I'm not sure that a Healer could have done much for MS. Healers seem to be able to enhance what the body could do for itself. Excellent for healing wounds, curing infections, and perhaps sometimes even counteracting poisons--but MS? I don't think so.
A thought just occurred to me--what if there were some chronic, degeneritive conditions that a Healer's intervention might make WORSE? The patient's body taking the Healer's energy to actually accelerate the progress of the disease? Or even rebound on the Healer? Like auto-immune conditions, where the patient's own immune system is attacking the rest of the body.
The trick of turning off Deryniness would be a negative if it couldnt be reversed
Quote from: tenworld on January 11, 2010, 01:08:10 PMThe trick of turning off Deryniness would be a negative if it couldnt be reversed
Except we know that it can, and not only by the blocker. Rhys could restore Evanie when Tieg accidentally bocked her.
Come to think of it, can anyone recall an incident in the books of the Healing of a disease, as opposed to the Healing of an injury?
I think one of the books (Deryni Magic, maybe?) expressly stated that the Healer's gift only works with injuries, not with diseases, since they have to be able to visualize what is happening to heal it, and they wouldn't be able to see bacteria or viruses. They might be able to heal a tumor (I'm guessing) if it's completely encapsulated, but probably not if it has metastasized, since they wouldn't be able to visual each individual cancer cell to be able to heal it.
Without knowing exactly how/where Alroy broke his back makes it hard to know how he could be healed. Maybe there was a physician who found a method to treat back injuries. His paralysis may have been only temporary. Alroy must have suffered more than one injury. There may have been internal bleeding somewhere else. Even if the back/neck injury would not kill him (people have survived such injuires for years), he may have asked for the coup. Maybe he decided that it would be better to be put down rather than live the rest of his life as an invalid.
Quote from: Evie on January 09, 2011, 08:26:53 PM
I think one of the books (Deryni Magic, maybe?) expressly stated that the Healer's gift only works with injuries, not with diseases, since they have to be able to visualize what is happening to heal it, and they wouldn't be able to see bacteria or viruses. They might be able to heal a tumor (I'm guessing) if it's completely encapsulated, but probably not if it has metastasized, since they wouldn't be able to visual each individual cancer cell to be able to heal it.
IIRC a Deryni Healer named Simon (Simeon?) Healed/excised a young man's tumor in one of KK's short stories in The Deryni Archives (the book). Can anyone recall the title of the story?
It was called "Vocation" and took place in the year 977. The noble was Gilrae d'Eirial who later became Archbishop of Rhemuth. He had always wanted to be a priest, but he was the elder son of his family. After he was cured, he gave up his title to his younger half-brother. Simon had been a student at St. Neot's in 917 and Camber saw him with one of his teachers in a short visit before the monastery was destroyed.
In my reading of the Camber era books, none of the Healers could cure diseases, just manage them. They could heal injuries, but apparently could not do much to correct Javan's club foot. They might have been afraid that they would have made the problem worse if they broke the bones in the foot in order to have them grow back properly. Of course they would have had to gotten Cinhil's permission to do it.
I think the proper analogy might be found in some popular fanstasy references:
Elrond could make the waters rise up faster and come harder but he couldnt create a patronus out of nothing to fight the nine riders.
A healer can accelerate healing which is mainly blood bringing nutrients and cells working faster, but without intimate understanding of viral DNA he can't stop an infection or a cancer cell from functioning.
Now who wants to write the story of a modern Oncologist whose family name is McThuryn?