I am thinking about this subject after this quote from Bynw from the thread "Alaric's loyalty."
Quote from: Bynw on September 01, 2021, 01:20:12 PM
What motivated the King in having this Deryni protector for his son and heir? Simple, the Haldane King knew of the Camberian Council and didn't trust any of them. Thus he needed a Deryni he could trust with his son's life and to be the first Haldane King who's future power ritual would be initiated by someone other than said council.
...
That being said, bringing Kelson into his Haldane potential was the work of Brion choosing Alaric for that task. Again bypassing the Camberian Council which had always previously done this duty. We easily see them worm their way back in when Kelson was thought to be dead with Nigel and his son's empowerment rituals. Although Brion wouldn't have the same distrust his father had he was just following his father's example. Alaric was there to bring Brion to power, he should be there to bring Kelson as well.
I am going to suggest that the Camberain Council had not been a part of the ritual of kingship for the Haldane Potential for Several Generations.
We will find the truth of it when KK writes the Road to Killingford. Then we will know. Yet I believe that the CC lost the ability to do the ritual at Killingford when Malcolm became king.
Malcolm Haldane, was born the third surviving son of King Urien in 1008. In 1022 at age 14 Prince Malcolm was created Duke of Rhemuth and with two older brothers, he was intended for a life in the church. Maybe he received the ritual as a child to set his potential, but then again, maybe by this time that set up ritual had gone by the wayside for the younger siblings. We don't know. Trouble was Killingford, which happened in 1025, killed off thousands of men including all healers, which meant most Deryni were part of the battles. We know Malcolm was part of the Arcane Duel with the Festials. I may be proven wrong here, but I think Malcolm was part Deryni from his mother and his grandmother's family lines and that is why he and his elder brother, Cinhill II, could be in the Arcane duel alongside there father who held the Haldane potential. (only the crowned king had that)
Malcolm's Elder brother dies a week after the battle. So who is left to perform the ritual for The new Haldane king? It had to be a Deryni in the know. but it didn't have to be a CC member, maybe it was a family of a CC member like one of the womenfolk. I hope KK will tell us.
Malcolm reign's lasted for more than 48 years, his eldest son Donal is 44 years of age when he come to the crown. Who set Donal's potential? If I remember correctly,( tell me if I am wrong) but when we meet the Camberian Council of Donal's time, they don't even think that he was ever brought to power. Seif was surprised to find Donal had the ability to use magic and that lack of knowledge cost him his life. It has been suggested here on the forum that Jessayma was the one to perform the ritual. Would she have discovered the truth of how to do it from her husband or maybe her father? Also Keyrell Cynfyn was very loyal to the Haldane king and Donal was Loyal to him back. There has to be some kind of connection there.
When the Earl of Lendour stole the heiress of Corwyn, did Donal back him? We know that the CC were against Cynfyn gaining that much land and power. But Donal was looking for Deryni who were not the part of the CC to be on his side. When Donal's plans failed to have his own illegitimate child be his heir's protector, he turned to Keyrell and Ahern to be that protector. When that failed, he turned to Ahern's sister, Alyce and then to her four year old son.
The only thing that is surprising to me is that the CC did not try to bring Brion to power themselves before Alaric grew up. Wouldn't they have tried to "Buy back" the king's loyalty to themselves in this way? Do you think Brion had been warned by his father about them?
I seems to me that the power and influence of the CC fluctuated but overall waned during the reigns of Donal, Brion, and Kelson, until Kelson really did not trust them at all. I wonder what they did to lose the trust of succeeding Haldane kings. By KKB they have much less influence as a group but individual members like Azim had much more influence. Did the CC do something that caused the Haldane kings to back away from them? They certainly have much less influence by Kelson's time. I Wonder how Denis dealt with that. Lots of questions here.
I think you may be on to something there @Laurna. It's quite possible that the events of Killingford changed the dynamic between the Haldane Kings and the Camberian Council. That is something we hope to see in the Road to Killingford once it is written.
edit - corrected the credit
Quote from: Bynw on September 02, 2021, 01:06:07 PM
I think you may be on to something there @DesertRose. It's quite possible that the events of Killingford changed the dynamic between the Haldane Kings and the Camberian Council. That is something we hope to see in the Road to Killingford once it is written.
Psst. That was Laurna, not me. ;) ;D
Quote from: DesertRose on September 02, 2021, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: Bynw on September 02, 2021, 01:06:07 PM
I think you may be on to something there @DesertRose. It's quite possible that the events of Killingford changed the dynamic between the Haldane Kings and the Camberian Council. That is something we hope to see in the Road to Killingford once it is written.
Psst. That was Laurna, not me. ;) ;D
I corrected my post. Apologies to @Laurna. This is what happens when you do this at work.
I suspect part of the reason for the change were the events of 948. An awful lot of people die that year including Joram, Queron, and I believe Tieg (Not sure, don't have my timeline handy.) Somehow, the power ritual keeps happening after they're gone, but things move beyond the high ritual magic of the Council to the more rough and ready rituals devised by the King for his heirs. And the last king to have contact with the Council was probably given some hasty magical imprinting to be able to do that much before whatever disasters befell Joram et al.
Melissa
Shiral, that very well may be. That without Jorum and Tieg the ritual was much simplified. We do know that Rhys Michael simplified much of the ritual by placing his magic into the lion broach that Queen Michaela had given him. That allowed for the formal blessings and magic ritual to be reduced. This is how Michaela and Rhysel were able to perform the ritual for her son Owain in her bed chamber. Dowager Queen Michaela lives a long life. Which is good thing for the Haldane legacy, (sad for her to see so many lives wasted) but good that she was witness to both her sons and then her three grandsons, through King Cluim, become king. I suspect she was part of each of their Rituals in turn. She passed away at the age of 80years in 989. a few years after the Rengarth wars. There are still MacAthans and DeCourcys and Drummonds(marriage to Jerusha Thuryn) around who have the family knowledge to help with the ritual, They would be some of the Camberian Councilors. (Of course, I have my own Fan fiction ideas about who helped Michaela in the rituals and possibly who carried on with the tradition until Killingford. )
Killingford is the key where everything drops.
I look forward to that part of the story to be written by KK to learn just where it all fell apart. Not that I want to cry, I just would like the knowledge without the grief. I fear I can not have one without the other.
Quote from: DerynifanK on September 02, 2021, 12:48:20 PMI wonder what [the Camberian Council] did to lose the trust of succeeding Haldane kings.
Coming in way late, so I don't know whether people will see this.
I wonder whether a factor might have been that kings have traditionally had a dim view of people claiming jurisdiction and power in their lands without royal recourse. By Donal's time, the only other people who do that are Mearan pretenders, and you can see the problem with that, and the Church, which has often had friction with secular powers in real life, much less in the Deryniverse.
Quote from: tmcd on May 28, 2022, 02:26:32 AMI wonder whether a factor might have been that kings have traditionally had a dim view of people claiming jurisdiction and power in their lands without royal recourse. By Donal's time, the only other people who do that are Mearan pretenders, and you can see the problem with that, and the Church, which has often had friction with secular powers in real life, much less in the Deryniverse.
I agree with you TMCD. We do not know how much Donal's father, King Malcolm, passed down to his son. The CC claiming power over the right of kingship may have well been in contention in Malcolm's time OR Malcolm knew nothing of the CC because nearly all Deryni Families had been decimated at Killingford.
As we discover in the novel
In the King's Service, we find only five Deryni families of high Rank left in the Rhemuth court who have any influence.
1)Keyrell Cynfyn of Corwyn and his children -They are the only open high Deryni family in the Kingdom of Gwynedd, and they are supported by King Donal to protect the border of Gwynedd from the Deryni kingdom of Torenth,
2)Sief MacAthan- who is a member of King Donal's royal council but who's family has hidden the cecret of their Deryniness for generations, though Donal has knowledge of it (likely told to him by Seif's wife.)
3)Seif's wife, Jessamy ap Lewy's and her brother, Sir Morian Du Joux ap Lewys(both known Deryni by the king),
4)Michon de Courcy and his family (who lives in the Connait and does not have direct dealings with the royal court.)
5) The Arilans who are members of the royal court but who have kept their Deryni family traits a secret even from King Donal. So Donal would never have even thought to look to them for help with the Haldane potential ritual.
All other Deryni families in Gwynedd are in hiding
All other known Deryni households are outside of Gwynedd's influence and Donal would certainly not trust any of them with his kingship.
So among the known Deryni of Gwynedd, who do you think Donal would trust? Jessamy who likely told him many secrets and had his secret child, and the Cynfyn's of Corwyn who owed their very protection from the Statutes of Ramos (and the church's intolerance) to the crown. If Donal knew about the CC ( which he might not) he would know that most of it's members had to be foreigners and would not have direct loyalties to the Haldanes.
I have to say, although knowledge might be good, I cannot look forward to the wholesale slaughter of Killingford. I have already cried enough over losses without that.
I posted this list of the Haldanes before, slightly updated, maybe it will help with discussion
There is a precedence for the Family line of the Haldanes to marry members of the Deryni blood.
From a review of the Codex Derynianus, I offer a list of the Haldane Kings who could pass that Deryni trait to their children.
I will leave it up to the reader to decide at what point of dilution the Deryni gene is no longer showing. Do remember that per KK, the Deryni trait is dominant and stronger than Human genes and it tends to be passed to the next generation. However, the Deryni abilities need to be trained in order to be used. Not many of the middle year Haldanes would have had access to full training. Although, once the King gains his Haldane Potential that training would no longer be necessary.
Kensell Haldane was Count of Haldane(601-609) As yet my studies have not revealed if the early Counts of Haldane had Deryni blood. But from this point in the family line we have a pretty good idea.
| (son)
Bearand II Haldane(Count of Haldane (609-631) married the Princess Gertrudis d'Estavaye daughter of the King of Mooryn. She would be full Deryni.
| (2nd son)
Augarina II Haldane First King of Gwynedd (645-673) Born in the year 611 would be at least 1/2 Deryni, he married Rosemaryn Lady MacLean. It is known that the ancient family of MacLean were full Deryni.
| (1st son)
Aidan Haldane King of Gwynedd(673-698) He married Sinead MacTyre. The Mactyre's are the Sovergn family of Kheldour, they are full Deryni. Aidan had no sons. His daughter Bethany married Imre I King of Torenth. Their daughter was Raphaela)
| (2nd son of Augarin II)
LLarik Haldane King of Gwynedd (698-719) he is at least 3/4 Deryni, he marries Sidonie Princess of Meara who is human
| (son)
Ryons Haldane King of Gwynedd (719-736) is 1/2 Deryni, he marries his 1st cousin once removed Raphaela Princess of Torenth Who is full Deryni
| (son)
St. Bearand III Haldane King of Gwynedd (736-794) should be considered full Deryni, he married Aisling Lady Kincaid who is human.
| (son)
Ifor Haldane King of Gwynedd (794-822) Born 778 and is 1/2 Deryni. He married Nuala lady Udaut. My best guess is that she is Human.
Fastilic years...
| (4th son and only surviving child of the Festilic coup d'etat)
Aidan Haldane (Daniel Draper) Born 820. who would be 1/4 Deryni, he married Avis de Burgeys who is Human
| (son)
Alroy Haldane (Royston Draper) Born 843 who would be 1/8 Deryni, he married Nellwyn de Menville who is Human.
| (son)
Restoration...
Cinhil I Haldane (Nicholas Draper) King of Gwynedd(904-917)Born 860 who is likely Human, he marries Megan Lady de Cameron who is also Human.
| (4th son)
Rhys Michael Haldane King of Gwynedd (922-928) Born 906 is Human, he marries Michaela Drummand who is Deryni but who had been blocked. (In other discussions, the consensuses is that the Deryni Gene in the child of a blocked parent is not themselves blocked.)
| (2nd son)
Uthyr Haldane King of Gwynedd (948-980) Born 929 is 1/2 Deryni, he marries Grania MacInnis Countess of Culdi who is 1/2 Deryni. (Grania's mother is Richeldis MacLean MacInnis who had her Deryni powers blocked by Healer Tavis on January 21, 918. This was before Richeldis MacLean married Iver MacInnis on March 5, 918.)
| (3rd son)
Cluim Haldane King of Gwynedd (985-994)Born 953 is most likely 1/2 Deryni (One grandparent from each side is Deryni- Cluim could be as much as full Deryni). Cluim marries Swynbeth Lady Fitz-Arthur Quinnell who is secretly 1/4 Deryni.
| (son)
Urien Haldane king of Gwynedd (994-1025)Born 974 is most likely 1/2 to 3/4 Deryni, he marries Jaroni Al-Mullahib the Daughter of the King of R'Kassi. Although the Kings of R'Kassi are known to be Deryni two generations later, it is thought that Jaroni is Human, however that is up for speculation.
| (6th son)
Malcolm Haldane King of Gwynedd (1025-1074) Born 1008 is either 1/4 Deryni or he is full Deryni depending upon his mother's status, he marries 1st Roisian Quinnell who is Human (There has been some speculation as to Roisian having some Deryni blood. Her grandfather on her mother's side, mother is Princess Urracca Faucon, is said to be the hereditary Prince of Bremagne with the surname of Faucon. I don't have the exact relations figured out yet.)
| (son)
Donal Haldane King of Gwynedd (1074-1095)Born 1030. The CC believe Donal does not have any Deryni ability. If he does carry the trait he could be as much as 1/2 or even 3/4 Deryni. If true he hide it well. Would the CC have figured it out if he was Deryni. but we may never know for sure. He marries secondly Richeldis MacFaolan-Gruffud who is Human.
| (son)
Brion Haldane King of Gwynedd (1095-1120) Born 1081 He is considered Human, But again there is a chance of Deryniness in his blood. He marries Jehana Princess of Bremagne who has unacknowledged her full Deryni heritage.
| (son)
Kelson Haldane King of Gwynedd (1120-+) Born 1106 is 1/2 Deryni, he marries is cousin Araxie Haldane Baroness Dunluce who is also 1/2 Deryni.
| (son)
Javan Haldane Heiridary Prince of Gwynedd, He is full Deryni because both parents carried the Deryni trait.
Quote from: DerynifanK on October 13, 2022, 07:49:32 PMI have to say, although knowledge might be good, I cannot look forward to the wholesale slaughter of Killingford. I have already cried enough over losses without that.
Having written a fanfiction of those events, I went through the Codex to pick out who the various lords were on either side. Virtually every title listed shows a death that year.
I don't know how the canonical version will go, but I had the immediate aftermath show Gwynedd struggling to find enough knights and lords to properly escort their new king into Rhemuth, while in Torenth the idea that their king was going to try
again was so horrifying that his own sons deposed him.
Quote from: drakensis on October 15, 2022, 02:47:33 AMHaving written a fanfiction of those events, I went through the Codex to pick out who the various lords were on either side. Virtually every title listed shows a death that year.
Oooh, which story? I must go read it!
I can't recall the specific passage at the moment (nor which book it occurs in in the Childe Morgan Trilogy) but Donal tells Alyce that the person who helped him assume his powers would now be either very old or deceased. Possibly this person was the last link between the Camberian Council and the Haldane potential.
With respect to Killingsford, whatever happened there (and effects of the aftermath of it) resulted in no major wars between Gwynedd and Torenth for almost 100 years. (This observation was flagged to me by Rob Reginald more than a few years ago. He definitely had a number of interesting ideas about Killingford, which are no longer canon).
Quote from: drakensis on October 15, 2022, 02:47:33 AMHaving written a fanfiction of those events, I went through the Codex to pick out who the various lords were on either side. Virtually every title listed shows a death that year.
Drakensis, I love your Story
The War of Three Kings It is well researched and well written and enjoyable. KK's version will be very different, likely more political with all the different players. But that will not lessen your story at all in my mind. Your characters taking charge was so cool.
Quotequote from Duck(This observation was flagged to me by Rob Reginald more than a few years ago. He definitely had a number of interesting ideas about Killingford, which are no longer canon)
Duck I would be curious to know about some of the details which are written in the codex under various characters names about the big events in Gwynedd, 948, 985, 1025. I always assumed those were KK's details. Do you think Rob Reginald filled in some of the facts, Because there is enough information to write stories from about all three events. Drakensis did a story about 1025, I have been wroking on the story of 985. I wonder if anyone else has tried to tackle 948. Even if our Fanfiction stories are not canon they do have the codex information as their base.
My understanding is that RR had access to KK's notes and materials when he was compiling the Codex, but that said it is difficult to say what in the Codex came from KK's notes and what came from RR. However, I think a lot of the Codex material came from RR.
I do remember Rob and Mary (RR's wife) saying that they had to be non-specific or vague about specific time periods and characters about which KK was likely to be writing about (this included the events of 948 and what happened to characters such as Joram and Dom Queron).
I can also remember Mary telling me that they were uncertain about how much to say/reveal in the old alt.books.deryni newsgroup [we're talking mid 1990s here] in the time before the publication of the Codex. My first recollection of a post from RR in that forum was in response to a question about why Owain Haldane had apparently never had children and possibly hadn't married. RR had posted that he had married and had daughters.
I also recall that RR was going to write a trilogy (i believe) in the deryni-verse based around the year 1025. He had written the manuscript for "The Dark Haired Man" which briefly covered the Killingford event from the Torenthi perspective. I was lucky enough to be able to read that manuscript when I visited Rob and Mary in California. This manuscript articulated a particular character's recollection of Killingsford after the event - the character in question (a distant Torenthi relative of Camber) is shell-shocked and doesn't really have a clue what happened except it was really, really bad, which possibly summarises the perspective of just about everyone who was there. I only had one night to read it and stayed awake until about 3 am in order to finish it. This would have been just before 'Kelson gets lucky' was published.
Rob was also apparently going to write about the Mearan princesses ('L'Demosoilles Tre' or something like that) and my recollection is that there was a third book covering that period but I can't remember what Rob said it may have covered (maybe it covered that same time period from a Gwyneddi perspective).
Although that said, Rob did share one last surprise about the aftermath of Killingford however i won't reveal it here ... in the words of Shiral .... zzziipp!!! But alas this nver eventuaded and others can perhaps explain why/
"The Dark Haired Man" manuscript was rewritten and published as part of Rob's 'Nuova Europa" universe. There are at least two other books set in that world "The Exiled Prince" and "Quaestiones" (which was also written for the deryni-verse)
This was a long time ago and I must claim that I can't recall more details!
Wow! Thank you Duck! So much to think about. (even professional writers like to toss their hand into the 11 kingdoms) Duck, We shall have to add you to the Zipper brothers and sisters family. ;D
"just before 'Kelson gets lucky' was published."
? Kelson has always been phenomenally lucky. One more bishop voting for the interdict and excommunication. Stefan being a deep mole. Falling down a cliff, down a stream, over a waterfall, into a cave, almost sealed from the outside world! I haven't the slightest clue what you might possibly mean.
Yours truly,
Wilfly d'Obtuse
Quote from: Nezz on October 15, 2022, 10:41:05 AMOooh, which story? I just go read it!
The War of Three Kings, which can be found here (https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,1345.0.html).