What languages would be spoken and/or read by well-educated people in Gwynnedd?
Obviously a knowledge of Latin would be expected, and more than merely ecclesiastical Latin for church services. We know there are references to Torenthi (and I gather that young Morgan reads material in Torenthi), but what others do we know of? Is Bremagni the equivalent of French or Spanish for example? Would it be spoken in places like Bremagne, Joux, Andelon, the Forcinn states, etc to the south? (I have Richenda reading Arabic, and she may also speak it). Are there equivalents to classical Greek, or other European languages?
I would imagine that, if taught languages in addition to Church Latin, the priests would've been introduced to at least some Hebrew and Greek in seminary. It might have been Koine Greek, though, since it would've been for New Testament studies, which were written in the lingua franca of the day. And Aramaic might have been at least touched upon.
And non-priests? The ordinary well-educated man or woman in the society - you know, the type who in our world would have known Latin and Classical Greek, speak English, French, German and a couple of other languages :)
Probably depends on their areas of interest, not to mention which kingdoms bordered their own. If their history somewhat parallels ours (and most indicators seem to show it does), I'm thinking someone interested in medicine or scientific arts, for example, might have found some knowledge of Arabic beneficial. All scholars would know Latin. Someone from, say, Meara, might find it helpful to know the languages of Llannedd and Howicce as well as the Connait, assuming these areas have different languages, whereas someone living in Corwyn might find it handier to know something of the languages just across the Southern Sea. Duke Ewan probably knows at least a smattering of whatever the Norselanders speak, and of course Borderers who come to Rhemuth's Court are expected to learn how to speak proper Court Gwyneddan in addition to their Border dialect, if Dhugal's to be taken as an example, though amongst themselves I suspect they often revert to the more comfortable cadences of their native dialects. (Or at least that's how I'm writing it in my current scene-in-progress featuring Transha men having fun at a revel in Rhemuth. :D )
If we take Gwynned to equal England, then I guess Mearan would be Welsh? Trallia and the Forcinn would speak dialects of Italian, with Bremagne Spanish? Torenth would be a mixture of German and Slavic?
Given the Orthodox leanings of their Christianity, plus the strong Moorish influences, I'd lean more Slavic than Germanic. Come to think, their more Eastern sounding names would also hint at their actual-Earth-medieval national counterparts as well. Most Torenthi names don't sound all that Germanic to me. (Then again, "Morag" and "Liam" are more Celtic than Slavic, Greek, Russian, etc., so names wouldn't always be an indicator. In general, though, Torenthi names seem to have more of a medieval-Eastern than a medieval-Western flavor.)
I wonder if you could mind link and import fluency into someone? On the flip side, if you mind read someone who's language you do not know, what can you get from their mind (other than images)?
Quote from: Evie on July 09, 2010, 11:37:40 AM
Given the Orthodox leanings of their Christianity, plus the strong Moorish influences, I'd lean more Slavic than Germanic. Come to think, their more Eastern sounding names would also hint at their actual-Earth-medieval national counterparts as well. Most Torenthi names don't sound all that Germanic to me. (Then again, "Morag" and "Liam" are more Celtic than Slavic, Greek, Russian, etc., so names wouldn't always be an indicator. In general, though, Torenthi names seem to have more of a medieval-Eastern than a medieval-Western flavor.)
"von Furstan" sound's pretty Germanic to me. I agree mostly Slavic, but I remember quite a few other German-sounding names.
Quote from: Alkari on July 08, 2010, 08:37:21 PM
And non-priests? The ordinary well-educated man or woman in the society - you know, the type who in our world would have known Latin and Classical Greek, speak English, French, German and a couple of other languages :)
Isn't there a scene in which Javan is participating in a Deryni ritual, and someone is translating the Latin words for his benefit? Or is that Rhys Michael?
Don't know. But I was re-checking something in ITKS last night, and found a reference to one of the younger women (I think it may have been Marie de Corwyn) knowing "several classical languages" and spending time in the royal library and scriptorium. The languages concerned aren't specified, but I would imagine them to be Latin, and whatever were the Deryni world's equivalent to at least Greek and Arabic.
Since the clergy are tied to universities and serve in government posts, I suppose Latin serves as a lingua franca in the west. Greek may function the same way in the east. Those who have regular contacts in both areas may simply speak both languages.
Since Gwynedd and Torenth seem to be the biggest powers in the Eleven Kingdoms, perhaps they each have a common language that the other nations use in addition to their own. Also, some places have been taken over in centuries past, so that dialects have arisen (read Cassa/Kierney/Transha= Scotland, LLannedd/Howicce= Wales, the Connait=Ireland); local words and idioms may not be readily understood by all, and pronunciations may vary, but the basic language is the same.
Then again, perhaps there is a common language as in D & D, with Latin and Greek being reserved for religious purposes. Dialects may then provide local color and accents to a common tongue.
Quote from: Evie on July 08, 2010, 08:29:49 PM
I would imagine that, if taught languages in addition to Church Latin, the priests would've been introduced to at least some Hebrew and Greek in seminary. It might have been Koine Greek, though, since it would've been for New Testament studies, which were written in the lingua franca of the day. And Aramaic might have been at least touched upon.
I'm trying to get to grips with NT Greek myself. Heavy going but it's starting to make sense at last. So it's nice to see some Greek liturgy written out in KKB.
I found that fascinating as well. Somewhere on my hard drive I've got a Hebrew/Greek Bible with word-for-word English translation, though at least the Hebrew and Greek words are somewhat anglicized (spelled out using the English alphabet, that is) rather than in the original Hebrew and Greek alphabets, which I can't read at all. (Ancient languages are hard enough for me to wrap my mind around as it is without having to learn whole new alphabets on top of them! :D ) I don't really know enough about Greek to know the differences between Classical, Koine, and Modern Greek though. Or for that matter, enough about Latin to know the differences between Classical and Church Latin, though I know there are some, in pronunciation at least.
[quote author=Evie link=topic "I don't really know enough about Greek to know the differences between Classical, Koine, and Modern Greek though. Or for that matter, enough about Latin to know the differences between Classical and Church Latin, though I know there are some, in pronunciation at least. "
Medieval (Church) Latin is very different than Cicero's. Not only did the pronunciation shift, but many words used in 1200 would not be recognized by classical Romans. Medieval Latin was a formal, legalistic language used for rituals and for diplomacy and commerce.
Probably not unlike The English of today with its heavy techology influence vs when US was founded as a semi-rural country and thats only 200+ years.
I was just reading one of the Fan Fic anthologies that were written with KK's approval/supervision and one of the stories/vignettes deals with Arilan as a student pursuing study of the Talmud. In order to be able to do that he would have had to have a good working knowledge of Hebrew and Aramaic. There's also a gong ringing in my head that Greek as well as Latin were in existence in that universe.
I also see Gwenydd as being similar to England and I THINK Gwenydd is Welsh for Wales, but I am not sure. I also think that some of the "Border Languages" that are alluded to are dialects of Welsh, Gaelic, and Irish. Certainly Arabic was spoken and I tend to think of Torenthi as Germanic/Slavic. Bremagni was probably French or a dialect thereof. While not called Spanish and Italian, I imagine that they were spoken.
Quote from: tenworld on July 09, 2010, 07:22:58 PM
I wonder if you could mind link and import fluency into someone? On the flip side, if you mind read someone who's language you do not know, what can you get from their mind (other than images)?
In Another Author's writings, some people with telepathic gifts could 'give' and 'take' language fluency; however, it had the side effect of giving a horrible headache, especially if one recieved more than one at once.
Cymru is Welsh for Wales, Gwenydd was a kingdom in Cymru. [The petty kingdoms of Wales being:
Ceredigion, Deheubarth, Dyfed, Ergyng, Gwent, Gwynedd, Morgannwg, Powys (Wenwynwyn, Fadog), and
Seisyllwg.
I always thought that the primary language would be Welsh - in the parallel, the English didn't exactly take over? And seem to recall something in Codex perhaps of the area of Bregmani being part of the parallel with either Great Britain or Brittany?
Also, I have noted a number of Hungarian-derived names: Lajos, Karoly, Matyas, Miksa, and Miklos. So thought perhaps some language branches that were less prominent in our world are more prominent in the land of the seven kingdoms.
Imladris, I havnt heard that name in a long, long time.
I think of Bremagne as french, but you are right, a lot of Europe vanished when KK slammed Ireland into England and England into France to make her world. Very little German/Polish/Czech/Swiss present. But Italy must be somewhere since the pope is hinted at and of course the Holyland is somewhere, but seems to have flip flopped with the Anvil (Saudi desert?).