Summonings are important in Deryni Rising and mentioned again IIRC in High Deryni, but Catherine drops them after that. Given she's drawn away from the idea of summoning from other worlds, I started wondering whether they could be brought from elsewhere using a Portal.
So my first thought was a stenrect might just be a scorpion variant from elsewhere in the world: being wildly different to the local variants it would look demonic to anyone who saw it. The problem there is the limits on Portal jumps - if a Portal can only send someone/thing a few hundred miles, the stenrect has to be local. So not a solution.
But: we're told in Camber the Heretic that Portals can be set so that anyone who tries to use them...disappears. And "no one knows what happens to them."
Suppose that anyone or thing seeking to appear in those Portals instead ends up becoming raw material for a summoning? They'd be functionally dead - or worse - but the basic form of their body would still function. Humans would fulfil the humanoid creatures Clarissa sends against Kelson.
As for beasties: if you've got a Portal that you can set as a trap, using it for pest control will improve your quality of life. Insects and Arachnids are almost weightless, so the spell should be fairly easy; here, a stenrect would be a mishmash of the various critters cleared out of Torenthi castles.
Finally, Deryni have been around for a *long* time. If a Stone Age clan had the ability to put a trapped Portal in a cave mouth, this would be a defence against many (now extinct) creatures. So 'summoning a unicorn' would be possible due to an enraged Elasmotherium being teleported out of existence by an early Deryni:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUYrzsdgUo_t7ZNBnj74Jp93_Mh-EztTXcvqYJejc2zrzfWhsSB74o2OixyBKzxCqSuU4&usqp=CAU)
An ingenious if horrific idea.
"Please do feel free to use our Portal"
"No thank you, I'll walk. It's not far, only 200 miles."
I interpret Katherine's Deryni series as being psionic and consider the summoning of creatures in the early books as telepathic creations of the Deryni collective unconscious by the operator in question. The creatures summoned or fabricated can be used for telepathic or, more usually, telekinetic attacks upon the prospective victim.
Given that these are creatures coming out of the collective unconscious, they are, in a certain sense, feral, and can be a danger to the operator who had summoned them as much as the prospective victim. I understand these creatures as semi-sentient.
At least this is my understanding of this.
I haven't considered the portal idea. I like that idea in one sense. It would seem to point to the idea that, eventually, the Deryni would be able to teleport without the need of a transfer portal.
I'm going to add my 2 cents to this fascinating topic.
Summoning has always been a form of teleportation with a bit of compulsion tossed in to cause the creature/entity to come. Control of the summoned is another matter all together.
I've speculated that it would be possible to jump through time using the transfer portal(s). Either by design or accidentally. There is a certain Deryni Mage that I believe that something like that happened to him. But that's another topic for another time.
So could "summoned" creatures, be some extinct beast brought back from the void where no time apparently takes place and formed into existence again today? Possible. It's a good theory
@whitelaughter I once thought of the Deryni powers to be psionic in nature myself
@Salic . But given the description of them in Deryni Magic it is questionable. Magic is from without and psionics are from within.
But on to the summoned creatures idea. I also like this idea that they are some form of psychic construct. Which would make sense too. Yet another good theory.
The major problem with time travel - is that the idea has to occur to you. The earliest known time travel story dates from 1733, and even that is just a guardian angel returning from the future with a pair of books. It isn't until 1838, a century and a half later, that we have a story with the protagonist going *back* in time - and that's just a short episode in a series of teleportations.
So even if time travel is possible via portal; even if it has *happened*; the idea simply won't occur to most Deryni.
Perhaps if that was the actual goal. To have the idea of traveling backwards or forwards in time. In our own world, we didn't have a lot of leisure time to think of such things until we did. In a world that has magic, that grants some additional leisure time. Perhaps the idea has already blossomed in some visionaries.
Or perhaps. It wasn't the notion of traveling in time. It was something else and it happened accidentally. Which is also part of my theory.
Whitelaughter,
I have ventured into fanfiction with distant viewing and portal vectoring involving Deryni characters. I was thinking of an unfinished novella that I had to stop because of health issues.
I contemplated Deryni remote portal creation as an intercontinental, and later, interstellar communication and travel. Here is an introductory sample of that novella. It will give you an idea of my idea which has some similarity to yours.
Sunday, October 4, 1146
Kingdom of Gwynedd
City of Dhassa
Cathedral Episcopal Rectory
Bishop Denis Arilian sat wearily at the great table in the rectory library as he listened to the wind blowing around the Cathedral spires outside. His closed breviary was in front of him. He was tired after his office prayers and a long day of liturgical services including the hearing of confessions of some of the wealthy nobility that had come to Dhassa for the high holy days of St. Torin and St. Ethelburga, the patron saints of Dhassa. It had been a long day and he looked forward to going to bed. The Camberian Council would be meeting tomorrow. He had already made his arrangements, as he had done for many years, to put into place the men needed to keep visitors away tomorrow while he'd be away at that meeting in the Keeill. He figured that it would be another perfunctory meeting of the Council.
As he dozed in his chair, fatigued from the day, he began to experience an inescapable, alarming premonition of something terrible, some kind of danger to the entire world. The premonition grew in intensity until it became stupendous in its totality. Feelings of horror of great danger washed over him like a cold, dark flood. He felt an agony of panic and helplessness. After an agonizing few moments, the premonition abruptly subsided. As calm returned to him, he was left wondering what the premonition was all about.
The premonition surged back again into Bishop Arilian's mind, but it was less intense, more muted. As the premonition abruptly subsided again, Bishop Arilian knew that it wasn't the last of it. The feelings of the premonition began again but was, again, less intense, more muted. Soon the terrible feelings stopped again. Bishop Arilian began to relax when he realized that the danger to the world was a premonition of a distant danger originating towards the Northeast, towards the Coamer Mountains, and strangely, to the skies above those mountains. He focused his mind on the premonition and its signifying meaning. What did it mean, he wondered? What could be the danger coming out of the sky?
He got up and went to the fireplace and put several split logs into the fire. As he watched the fire flare up around the logs, he wondered about several faded manuscripts he had read in his youth concerning those mountains. Does it have something to do with Far World? He wondered.
Now the fragmentary Far World manuscripts were a great mystery that had long puzzled the bishop. It had had puzzled him since he was a young man who had spent his time peering at those old manuscripts and fragments the Deryni still possessed in their handful of libraries that had survived the great burning.
According to the strange, hard-to-read fragments of several manuscripts, the last tattered remains of an old book in the library of the Keeill, the forerunners of the Deryni, the Airsid, had established a strange circular transfer portal in the Coamer Mountains in a canyon called Akrellholm. Supposedly, the Airsid had used the transfer portal to create, remotely, another transfer portal at another location, in itself a great feat of magic, since a portal is usually created by first creating two separate portals and then later establishing the link between them. What the books said was that they initially created a transfer portal in the Akrellholm, far from prying eyes. Then, using their magic, by means of their mind vision, looking through the medium of a smoky quartz crystal called an Akrell, they located another location to set up their other transfer portal. This meant that they had to first, find a rocky outcropping at the other location, and then, using their magic, cut the circle in the stone, and imbue it with the power of their magic, making it into a new transfer portal.
What was even more mysterious was that the portal was in another world. The accounts of the portal construction were fragmentary. Originally, they wanted a portal at the far side of the world, initially in the lands of the sunset. Then they changed their minds, thinking about lands towards the sunrise, the Far East, since they were greedy for the spices that were to be found there. But one among the Airsid asked, why not seek to find another world and set the transfer portal there? Perhaps there is another place where riches can be found that the Airsid wouldn't have to share with others.
And so the Airsid, probing with their magic, focused onto a distant star in the night sky, for one of their number had said that, 'undoubtedly, the sun that warmed and enlighted the Deryni world was to others but only a distant star'. For a brief moment, their probe reached the far star that they had focused on in their mind vision, a giant gaseous world. The manuscripts declared that it was a stupendous sight, if the accounts were to be believed. But then, the Airsid masters became impatient about not finding a habitable world near this star, and in their pride they streamed further magical energy into the Akrell crystal. At that moment, something strange happened. Their probe plunged into a great darkness, and when it had emerged from that darkness, they were gazing upon a fair world that looked much like the world that God had created for both humans and Deryni. This new, far world had oceans and blue skies, and fertile continents. It also had two moons.
The Airsid had their probe plunge down onto the surface of that world, and soon, in their mind vision, found they crossing a dark ocean. Ahead of them, they observed a beach and the darkness of a ridge that stood above it. At the top of that ridge they found the needed bedrock which was where they cut their transfer portal and imbue it with their mighty power. They called this world, Far World.
During the following days, they discovered while looking through the portal, that it was inhabited by strange creatures such as gigantic bears and deer, strange furred elephants, giant wolves and cats with large curved sword-like teeth. And so it came to pass that they visited that beautiful, abundant world and found that they could live in it and enjoy it. When the Airsidi sent out their war bands from the portal, they initially found that there were no people living in that world. This was true even when they had walked hundreds of miles, crossing huge fertile valleys and hunting grounds on a scale unknown in their world, which, rightfully, should have had inhabitants. They found many places, rich in wealth, plenteous in game, had no defenders.
The Airsid rejoiced in their discovery. Soon the Airsid campfires sizzled with the gigantic haunches of elk and aurochs. They found and adorned themselves with the amber and gold found in the sandbars of the streams teeming with salmon. They took much fish and game there, and brought back heaps of gold, enriching the hoards of the Airsid, making them one of the most prosperous of peoples. They rejoiced in their pride and in their riches until they discovered that the supposedly vacant world had other, strange people that had also come to that world, also from the stars, a powerful people with strong powers of the mind. Difficult to imagine, they looked like humans and Deryni. And they discovered that the strangers were a people to be feared. Soon, as the manuscripts made mention, the Airsid evacuated that world.
Bishop Arilian returned to his chair. Undoubtedly many powerful Deryni and those influential Deryni in positions of authority had felt this premonition. It would cause concern and fear, especially fear for those aware of those old fragments of writings, if were to be believed, which spoke of a people more powerful than Deryni.
Is our world coming to an end? He wondered. The love of riches has been the undoing of many. He bowed his head in prayer. He could not help but weep.
The portal is created at a distant location, but unlike your idea, movement through the portal is needed to move things back to the original location.
Quote from: Bynw on October 17, 2023, 12:58:16 PMI'm going to add my 2 cents to this fascinating topic.
Summoning has always been a form of teleportation with a bit of compulsion tossed in to cause the creature/entity to come. Control of the summoned is another matter all together.
I've speculated that it would be possible to jump through time using the transfer portal(s). Either by design or accidentally. There is a certain Deryni Mage that I believe that something like that happened to him. But that's another topic for another time.
So could "summoned" creatures, be some extinct beast brought back from the void where no time apparently takes place and formed into existence again today? Possible. It's a good theory @whitelaughter
I once thought of the Deryni powers to be psionic in nature myself @Salic . But given the description of them in Deryni Magic it is questionable. Magic is from without and psionics are from within.
But on to the summoned creatures idea. I also like this idea that they are some form of psychic construct. Which would make sense too. Yet another good theory.
I understand where you're coming from on this, Bynw. I understand that KK has allowed her series to be interpreted both ways. I'm, though, interested in the psychological when understanding characters in the Canon. The problem I have with magic is how does one understand "magical thinking" as a character problem. The delimitation of illusions from reality becomes an issue, I think, with those special entities that can suspend or modify that reality on a massive scale.
Just how "unfinished" is this novella of yours? hint hint
Quote from: Nezz on October 27, 2023, 11:16:45 AMJust how "unfinished" is this novella of yours? hint hint
I'm about a fifth of the way into it, Nezz. The people from the stars, the Ikorrceni would be shocked to discover that the Deryni were in a Medieval period of civilization. That meant that the portal was put in by a civilization (the Airsid) which dates back to the late Iron, early Steel Age. Not too bad for the Airsid who were still living in thatched round houses!
I would like to finish it, but I'll only post it here in the castle only when I finish it. My health issues are daunting.
Quote from: Salic on October 27, 2023, 11:29:04 AMI would like to finish it, but I'll only post it here in the castle only when I finish it. My health issues are daunting.
Understood. My health issues are such that my writing has slowed to a crawl.
I loved the extract Salic and hope that you find the health and energy to finish it.
One day I hope I can get back to writing too, though my issues are different, so I can empathise.
The concept is intriguing. If not a little intimidating. I would love to read more.
Quote from: Nezz on October 27, 2023, 11:36:28 AMQuote from: Salic on October 27, 2023, 11:29:04 AMI would like to finish it, but I'll only post it here in the castle only when I finish it. My health issues are daunting.
Understood. My health issues are such that my writing has slowed to a crawl.
It is a struggle, Nezz. It's too bad revanne has health issues as well.
I must say that Whitelaughter is pointing out some insights regarding portals. What's striking me at the moment is the way the Torenthi Deryni had affected the weather early in King Kelson's reign. This involved remote viewing by those Deryni and their probable deployment of a focal portal to concentrate telekinesis affecting the weather patterns that would stream into the Eleven Kingdoms. This type of portal would not be a transfer portal. This, of course, is speculation on my part since the way the Torenthi Deryni had been affecting the weather was not spelled out in Canon.
Quote from: Laurna on October 28, 2023, 11:30:01 AMThe concept is intriguing. If not a little intimidating. I would love to read more.
Whitelaughter's ideas are intriguing, Laurna. 'Tis the stuff that fanfiction is made of, I think. :D
In the summoning of creatures that is proposed in this thread, it has made me to wonder if there are any instances of object teleportation that is occurring in the Canon. Given the powers of the Deryni, and I think that they are more powerful than they usually appear in Canon, I think that this is possible. I share whitelaughter's appraisal of the powers of the Deryni.
I have heard that Duke Alaric Morgan most likely secretly teleported without the use of a transfer portal in The King's Deryni. If the direct teleport of an operator can occur, direct teleport of an object apart from the operator would seem to eventually follow, given various situations.
Does anybody have any thoughts on these things?
Quote from: Salic on November 05, 2023, 10:00:48 AMIn the summoning of creatures that is proposed in this thread, it has made me to wonder if there are any instances of object teleportation that is occurring in the Canon. Given the powers of the Deryni, and I think that they are more powerful than they usually appear in Canon, I think that this is possible. I share whitelaughter's appraisal of the powers of the Deryni.
I have heard that Duke Alaric Morgan most likely secretly teleported without the use of a transfer portal in The King's Deryni. If the direct teleport of an operator can occur, direct teleport of an object apart from the operator would seem to eventually follow, given various situations.
Does anybody have any thoughts on these things?
I'm not aware of any use of teleportation in the Deryniverse, in canon, without the use of a Transfer Portal. Including objects being moved from distant places to Deryni traveling to distant places by magical means.
If such a thing was mentioned or even hinted at in TKD. I would love to know the chapter and page. Otherwise I would have to re-read it.
Quote from: Bynw on November 05, 2023, 01:00:07 PMQuote from: Salic on November 05, 2023, 10:00:48 AMIn the summoning of creatures that is proposed in this thread, it has made me to wonder if there are any instances of object teleportation that is occurring in the Canon. Given the powers of the Deryni, and I think that they are more powerful than they usually appear in Canon, I think that this is possible. I share whitelaughter's appraisal of the powers of the Deryni.
I have heard that Duke Alaric Morgan most likely secretly teleported without the use of a transfer portal in The King's Deryni. If the direct teleport of an operator can occur, direct teleport of an object apart from the operator would seem to eventually follow, given various situations.
Does anybody have any thoughts on these things?
I'm not aware of any use of teleportation in the Deryniverse, in canon, without the use of a Transfer Portal. Including objects being moved from distant places to Deryni traveling to distant places by magical means.
If such a thing was mentioned or even hinted at in TKD. I would love to know the chapter and page. Otherwise I would have to re-read it.
I'm not aware of it, directly, as well, Bynw. From what I understand, there is a scene in TKD where Alaric's presence is unexplained and seems to point to teleportation. I'm not sure, though, of the specific passage in question. I've heard this being claimed about TKD several times. I'm curious what people may know about this.
Maybe you are thinking of Sir Sé's mysterious appearances at key times when Alaric needs him? I can't remember any scene where Alaric has an unexplained appearance somewhere (and that would seem like a pretty advanced level of magic for a lad who is only partially trained), but Sé had a habit of appearing and disappearing seemingly out of the blue at pivotal moments, which is likely some secret ability he learned from the Anvillers.
Given the wide set of skills Alaric has demonstrated, but his limited magical training, any unexplained sudden appearances are more likely to be due to mundane sneaking.
And possibly lurking too.
Quote from: Evie on November 05, 2023, 08:34:26 PMMaybe you are thinking of Sir Sé's mysterious appearances at key times when Alaric needs him? I can't remember any scene where Alaric has an unexplained appearance somewhere (and that would seem like a pretty advanced level of magic for a lad who is only partially trained), but Sé had a habit of appearing and disappearing seemingly out of the blue at pivotal moments, which is likely some secret ability he learned from the Anvillers.
Thank you for this information, Evie. For some reason, I was thinking that Alaric had that ability. I haven't read TKD for many years and have forgotten much.
I suspect that the Knights of the Anvil have a bigger story about them than the Canon seems to indicate. :D
In a sense, whitelaughter's implicit idea concerning time travel by the Deryni makes sense. When we look at the Canon, we see that when the Deryni teleport between two transfer portals, their transportation is instantaneous. Time is conflated into the moment of use between, and within, the continuum of the two transfer portals. Since there is not the usual ongoing time/space existence as we experience in mundane experience, it would seem that time travel is occurring among the Deryni.
Wouldn't it be proper to say that there is a hyperspace jump between two transfer portals, to borrow a concept from science fiction/fantasy? This is an idea that has fascinated me for a long time.
I believe that time does pass during all of those things and more. Even in Doctor Who it takes 3-6 seconds to dematerialize and again to rematerialize the Tardis no matter how for in Time/Space it is moving.
For the Deryni, it is a mere heart beat or two of time that passes between the blink from one portal to another.
With Hyperspace travel in science fiction. It depends greatly on which science fiction. Travel sometimes takes minutes. Sometimes it takes hours and longer. Some times it's a set time no matter the distance traveled. But time does pass during the "between time". Even, like in the case of the reimaged Battlestar Galactica jump drives, where it is but a few scant seconds between the time the Galactica vanishes and reappears elsewere.
At least that's my observation.
Quote from: Bynw on December 15, 2023, 01:36:51 PMI believe that time does pass during all of those things and more. Even in Doctor Who it takes 3-6 seconds to dematerialize and again to rematerialize the Tardis no matter how for in Time/Space it is moving.
I'm not familiar, Bynw, with the Dr Who franchise stories and so I do not understand what you mean by dematerialze and rematerialize. I understand that hyperspace, generally considered, is a linking from one time/space location to another time/space location. From what I understand, if something or someone is transiting through hyperspace, it is merely the transiting through the space and does not involve a change in molecular being (i.e. de- and rematerializtion).
QuoteFor the Deryni, it is a mere heart beat or two of time that passes between the blink from one portal to another.
That has been my understanding of the Deryni corpus. This is what I think must happen with a psionics-based hyperspace jump.
QuoteWith Hyperspace travel in science fiction. It depends greatly on which science fiction. Travel sometimes takes minutes. Sometimes it takes hours and longer. Some times it's a set time no matter the distance traveled. But time does pass during the "between time". Even, like in the case of the reimaged Battlestar Galactica jump drives, where it is but a few scant seconds between the time the Galactica vanishes and reappears elsewere.
At least that's my observation.
I agree, Bynw. That has been my conclusion concerning all of the space opera works I've read over the years. I understand there is much speculation regarding the technological issues involving hyperspace as it is argued in physics. If one considers in technologically based hyperspace jumps, there is the possibility of the starship needing its own "pocket universe" including a space/time component, to allow those transiting the hyperspace to biologically survive.
I do not think that this would be needed by psionics such as, I think, the Deryni. If they have the capacity to teleport by means of transfer portals, it means they have the necessary safeguards to transit safely thru whatever continuum that they have fashioned using their portals, and they can make the transition fast.
I find this subject fascinating. :)
It seems to me that a lot of the ritual deryni magic (and indeed invoking the wards) involves balancing energies – four quarters with four archangels and four cardinal points blah blash blabble.
Although we often suspect that magic often disregards things like the laws of physics – I have wondered whether a transfer portal (which needs to constructed on stone or exposed earth) essentially allows the excess energy from this activity to be "earthed" (for want of a better word) and that the user has to absorb/compensate for the extra energy generated for portal transfers of longer distances that isn't necessarily absorbed by the portal itself.
I seem to recall something about how frequently used portals are easier to transport to and or operate. It would suggest that teleportation without using a portal is theoretically possible but extremely dangerous as the teleportee needs to compensate for all those laws of physics ... mumble mumble mumble. Perhaps that was what Lewys ap Norfal was experimenting with although I suspect his experiments were even more radical.
As an aside - would it be possible to undertake a ceremonial activity which doesn't invoke four points? Two points? (positive and negative) three points? five points?
Quote from: duck on December 21, 2023, 07:25:55 AMIt seems to me that a lot of the ritual deryni magic (and indeed invoking the wards) involves balancing energies – four quarters with four archangels and four cardinal points blah blash blabble.
I would agree, duck. My impression (from a psionic, non-magical, point of interpretation) is that the Deryini need to use ritual to hold back the destructive elements of the Deryni collective unconscious in the performance of their "magic". One of the dangers present in magic, with all forms of fantasy involving magic is the danger of loss of operator control of what is being done. The ritual seems to craft the safeguards to the magic.
This same issue of the danger of the lack of operator control is present in science fiction/fantasy involving psionics. That fiction, I think, is much more involved with the psychology behind behavior and action which fascinates me.
QuoteAlthough we often suspect that magic often disregards things like the laws of physics – I have wondered whether a transfer portal (which needs to constructed on stone or exposed earth) essentially allows the excess energy from this activity to be "earthed" (for want of a better word) and that the user has to absorb/compensate for the extra energy generated for portal transfers of longer distances that isn't necessarily absorbed by the portal itself.
I seem to recall something about how frequently used portals are easier to transport to and or operate. It would suggest that teleportation without using a portal is theoretically possible but extremely dangerous as the teleportee needs to compensate for all those laws of physics ... mumble mumble mumble. Perhaps that was what Lewys ap Norfal was experimenting with although I suspect his experiments were even more radical.
For those that interpret that Deryni corpus in magical terms, the problems of speculative physics would not seem to be important in that the Deryni mages would have the power to modify space/time reality in such a way as to be 'god-like'. If the ritual is meant to order the progression of the magic effect and guard it against the dangers of magical operations, the formalization of it also has another sociological meaning. If the ritual is either known or hidden, it allows for the stunting and control of Deryni magical education.
I tend to think of KK's beliefs are less rooted in the magic and in is based in the more conventional understanding of Christian religious belief and psionics. Her book, Deryni Magic (published 1990), does make provision for both a magical and psionic interpretation of her Deryni corpus. I think, though, that in her final edition of Deryni Rising (published 2005), she makes the psionic interpretation of Deryni corpus paramount in her introduction "Putting the Deryni Into Perspective". Therefore, I think that scientific speculation about supposed Deryni magic is important concerning KK's stories.
I'm not sure what to say about Lewys ap Norfal. I'm still in the process of becoming reacquainted with KK's writings after many years. I want to have a psychological understanding of the man before making comment on him and his abilities.
QuoteAs an aside - would it be possible to undertake a ceremonial activity which doesn't invoke four points? Two points? (positive and negative) three points? five points?
I'm not sure what to say about these nuances of Deryni ritual. This will have to be answered by someone else.
In the real world that "babble" of summoning archangels, elementals et al is used in some shape or form in almost all forms of magic. What I have read, talked with actual practitioners, experienced and participated in ritual magic some form of what you said is used. I myself have actually used, successfully several of the ones derived from the Deryni books, because KK's rituals are based on real world magic/Wicca or whatever you or others call it.
Quote from: duck on December 21, 2023, 07:25:55 AMIt seems to me that a lot of the ritual deryni magic (and indeed invoking the wards) involves balancing energies – four quarters with four archangels and four cardinal points blah blash blabble.
Yes, and indirectly, we know that this is happening. If the Deryni simply jumped, then there would be an implosion at the portal where they left, as air rushed into the space the Deryni occupied; and the air at the arrival point needs to be removed instantaneously to prevent the Deryni dropping dead from oxygen poisoning. (Simplest solution is that the Deryni swaps location with the air).
I thought I'd comment on this, whitelaughter.
Quote from: whitelaughter on December 28, 2023, 06:02:59 PMQuote from: duck on December 21, 2023, 07:25:55 AMIt seems to me that a lot of the ritual deryni magic (and indeed invoking the wards) involves balancing energies – four quarters with four archangels and four cardinal points blah blash blabble.
Yes, and indirectly, we know that this is happening.
This is unclear to me. I understand the importance of balance in a psychological and moral sense. I do not understand in a specific magical sense.
QuoteIf the Deryni simply jumped, then there would be an implosion at the portal where they left, as air rushed into the space the Deryni occupied; and the air at the arrival point needs to be removed instantaneously to prevent the Deryni dropping dead from oxygen poisoning. (Simplest solution is that the Deryni swaps location with the air).
I would strongly agree with the displacement of air in the teleportation. There are no descriptions in the Deryni corpus indicating a popping sound in the use of a transfer portal.
I don't know where oxygen poisoning would occur in teleportation. Are you conceiving of the use of a transfer portal involving some sort of momentary high pressure causing oxygen saturation? I hadn't thought of that before.
I've gone back to re-read the section of QfSC where Tiercel is teaching Conall about transfer portals (Chapter 8).
Interestingly, when Tiercel suggests that Conall try and use the portal by himself he says " ... I'll follow right behind, as soon as you've gone. Just don't move physically at the other end, until I get there." So Tiercel was able to use a portal even with Conall standing on the destination portal, granted he knew he was going to be there. luckily he doesn't end up with his arm materialising in Conall's chest or similar. (To quote from DNA about the perils of teleportation "I teleported home one night with Ron, Syd and Meg. Ron stole Meggie's heart. And I got Sydney's leg!")
Or was this a way for the teacher to ensure that the student had successfully transferred? Can the teacher "scan" the destination portal for their pupil and "pull them back" if they've right and proper buggered up the transfer procedure!
Later, Tiercel talks about trapped portals and in response to Conall's question about whether you can tell if a portal is trapped he said "Sometimes. Sometimes not. It depends on the skill of the trapper and the trappee ..." This might suggest that when using a portal, the practitioner has a moment to react to some abnormality on the destination portal and pull out of the operation. Would they be able to tell that the portal has been filled with rubble (as was the case with the portal in the garderobe in the Harrowing of Gwynedd)?
Quote from: duck on December 31, 2023, 09:58:43 AMI've gone back to re-read the section of QfSC where Tiercel is teaching Conall about transfer portals (Chapter 8).
Interestingly, when Tiercel suggests that Conall try and use the portal by himself he says " ... I'll follow right behind, as soon as you've gone. Just don't move physically at the other end, until I get there." So Tiercel was able to use a portal even with Conall standing on the destination portal, granted he knew he was going to be there.
This is an interesting narrative, duck, from QfSC, Chapter 8. It is Tiercel's instruction of Conall concerning transfer portals before Tiercel is murdered by Conall.
Quoteluckily he doesn't end up with his arm materialising in Conall's chest or similar. (To quote from DNA about the perils of teleportation "I teleported home one night with Ron, Syd and Meg. Ron stole Meggie's heart. And I got Sydney's leg!")
I am not familiar with this narrative. It sounds fanciful. Wouldn't it be easier to think that the mass of a person using a transfer portal would simply push or knock the mass of another person standing on the destination transfer portal away upon arrival? Why must de- and rematerialization be envisioned in this instance?
QuoteOr was this a way for the teacher to ensure that the student had successfully transferred? Can the teacher "scan" the destination portal for their pupil and "pull them back" if they've right and proper buggered up the transfer procedure!
I have thought that would be possible concerning these portals. I suspect that the necessary precondition would be that the Deryni is familiar with the initial portal, he or she is going to use, and the destination transfer portal.
QuoteLater, Tiercel talks about trapped portals and in response to Conall's question about whether you can tell if a portal is trapped he said "Sometimes. Sometimes not. It depends on the skill of the trapper and the trappee ..." This might suggest that when using a portal, the practitioner has a moment to react to some abnormality on the destination portal and pull out of the operation. Would they be able to tell that the portal has been filled with rubble (as was the case with the portal in the garderobe in the Harrowing of Gwynedd)?
I think that this would be so, but others more familiar with KK's works should weigh in on this. I haven't read KK's works for years and so I'm relearning a lot. :D
I've wondered about that-- the idea of a booby-trapped Portal that might open up to a destination at, say, the bottom of a lake, or not open up at all. Or Portals "going bad" because of age or poor construction and sending you to some largely random destination.
Quote from: DoctorM on December 31, 2023, 11:26:39 AMI've wondered about that-- the idea of a booby-trapped Portal that might open up to a destination at, say, the bottom of a lake, or not open up at all. Or Portals "going bad" because of age or poor construction and sending you to some largely random destination.
It's an interesting question, DoctorM. I suspect that KK left things like this open to the skill of the operator. I suspect that the uncertainty would add considerable suspense to an ongoing story depending on the story line.
I like the suggestion in a previous discussion, of a Transfer Portal on the roof of a cave, with spikes below. If you have fast reflexes, it still doesn't help, because you've already lost contact with the destination portal and started to fall! Hmmm, how to make it usable .... oh, it has to be trapped to make you immobile (and give you time to unlock the trap)!
"Would they be able to tell that the portal has been filled with rubble (as was the case with the portal in the garderobe in the Harrowing of Gwynedd)?" Ooo, what happened then? I am absolutely not going to reread it.
"I teleported home one night with Ron, Syd and Meg. Ron stole Meggie's heart. And I got Sydney's leg!"
I heard it as "Ron stole Meggie's heart away."
"I am not familiar with this narrative. It sounds fanciful."
Googling has a hit of "The Teleportation Blues is a song that appears in the Hitchhiker's universe. The words were written by Douglas Adams and the music by Philip Pope."
My own ideas of how Portals work, is this. The position that you are standing in when you transfer off the first portal, is the same position in which you arrive on the portal you are going to. If there is something obstructing you from completely appearing on that 2nd portal, than you can not make the portal jump and you are instantly bounced back to the first portal. No materializing half phased into something else like furniture or other people, no being pushed away or pushing something else away. Tiercel could arrive on the same portal Conall was standing on because he knew that particular space he would arrive at was free of all other objects-next to Conall but not touching Conall. (I am not going to worry about the air molecules, perhaps those get exchanged with your action. or not, I will leave that up to others.) If you know that there is a low ceiling at the portal location you are going to, then duck down to the right height and you can portal safely. If you don't duck down than you will get bounced back and not make the portal. If you know there is an object like a box on part of the portal you are going to then just stand one the opposite side of where the box would be (knowing your S,E,W,N positions might be really helpful here.
One of the pluses for taking over the mind-controls of the people who you are taking through the portal, is that you can control their movements and keep them from moving in the few heartbeats that it takes to make the Portal jump. This might be a necessity so that everyone arrives in the same position that they left in. one person accidentally falling into an another person might make the portal jump fail.
I don't think KK actually says this in any story, but it seems to me there are clues that this is how it may be. We do know there are risks to portal jumping. and I suspect this limitation of positioning is a vital one for safe Portaling. That is why it is so important to know the portal and it's location that you are going to, more than just knowing the signature itself.
A lot of the physically trapped portals are contained ones. In an air tight chamber for instance. You can't Transfer into the air and fall. Because the Portal signature is on the rock below. That is where you will be. I am betting you could have a chamber that is flooded and thus trapped that way too.
But anything else will cause you to bounce back to your destination.
Other traps are magical in nature. Those might be detectable but sometimes not.
If you want spikes to kill the people using the portal. It would be a separate trap triggered by their movement around the portal square. Do able. Probably not detectable and wont bounce them back. Maybe set it so they can't jump back out of that portal. Hmmmmm. Ideas are turning ...
Quote from: Bynw on January 04, 2024, 03:33:31 PMHmmmmm. Ideas are turning ...
Oh, way to go, guys; now you've got him
thinking again!
Ideas are churning but in what direction? Could be interesting, fun, or really scary.
Quote from: DerynifanK on January 04, 2024, 04:43:22 PMIdeas are churning but in what direction? Could be interesting, fun, or really scary.
As if we have to ask...
especially considering the talk of traps! ;)
I'm wondering if the ritual used to establish transfer portals was also meant to lessen the possibility of traps through the formalization of their construction.
The sociology of the Deryni working their magic admits to a number of possibilities that would need to be worked through concerning some of their traditions and practices.
The traps would have been a later add on after portal construction, at least probably most times.