It's clear that in the novels, Gwynedd and points west seem to follow a Church that's medieval Catholic with a dash of earlier Celtic Christianity. Torenth and the East follow some mix of Greek and Russian Orthodoxy. And there are Moors, though...I wonder what exactly that means. The world of early Islam had its own schisms, and not just Shi'a and Sunni. How would Deryni fit into an Islamic world? (I've always thought of the Queen's Moors as being...maybe a bit Sufi or Ismaili)
Do groups like the Anvillers accept some Moorish beliefs?
And someone here raised the question once of R'Kassi. Are the R'Kassans Muslim (or quasi-Muslim)? Do they follow a syncretic Christianity? Or even a syncretic Judaism?
What *are* your thoughts on religions outside of Gwynedd and Torenth?
IIRC, Prince Azim was an Anviller from a Moorish religious tradition,though it's been so long since I read KKB, I might be misremembering.
Early R'Kassi were nomadic tribes. per the codex, the region converted to Muslim faith during the time of the Prophet Muhammad.
king Jasher Haldane (983)had been a lay knight in the Order of St Willibrord. This order was well known for having daughter houses in the East to spread the Christian faith. I believe the codex says that the modern king's of R'Kassi and Trellia and the Hort of Orsal had been converted by the time of Kelson. I also think Even the Anviliers were a mix of both faiths since many of them had come from families who had fled Gwynedd.
In "Trial," (Deryni Archives, the anthology of KK-written short stories published in 1986), Ferris the sword-smith, the (framed) defendant in the titular trial, venerates the All-Father, which suggests a polytheistic religion rather like the real-world Norse pantheon existing somewhere in the Eleven Kingdoms-verse.
Early in Camber of Culdi, Camber and Evaine spend some quality father-daughter time translating old epic poetry that references a pre-Christian tradition closer to "home," as it were. (I'm guessing that said tradition is Druidic or similar, but that's my own speculation.)
KK also mentions in Deryni Magic that there must be a Jewish tradition somewhere, both because neither Christianity nor Islam would exist without Judaism and also Arilan references Talmudic precedent in the deliberations over the validity of Duncan's and Maryse's wedding (and thus the legitimacy of Dhugal's birth).
I'd guess there are others, as well, maybe off the map somewhere, or maybe a Ruman pantheon that predates Christianity.
Fun topic to consider and discuss!
If I remember correctly, in our world, prior to the era of the Crusades which started at the end of the 11th century, there was less hostility between the Abrahamic faiths than later became the case. This was especially true in Moorish Spain.
It seems likely that with Deryni playing the part of the "other" that there would be more acceptance of other - at least monotheistic faiths - in the Deryniverse. That's not to say that there wouldn't be some suspicion of difference, or a privileging of a region's particular faith, but there's a huge difference between that and wanted to slaughter the adherents of another faith.
From my own perspective I understand Deryni as having a greater openness to the divine (one of the things, I think, that made some human clerics so vituperative) and therefore an understanding that all human knowledge of God is, to a greater or lesser degree, provisional.
Good thoughts!
Quote from: revanne on June 23, 2022, 02:24:13 AMIf I remember correctly, in our world, prior to the era of the Crusades which started at the end of the 11th century, there was less hostility between the Abrahamic faiths than later became the case. This was especially true in Moorish Spain.
It seems likely that with Deryni playing the part of the "other" that there would be more acceptance of other - at least monotheistic faiths - in the Deryniverse. That's not to say that there wouldn't be some suspicion of difference, or a privileging of a region's particular faith, but there's a huge difference between that and wanted to slaughter the adherents of another faith.
From my own perspective I understand Deryni as having a greater openness to the divine (one of the things, I think, that made some human clerics so vituperative) and therefore an understanding that all human knowledge of God is, to a greater or lesser degree, provisional.
Quote from: revanne on June 23, 2022, 02:24:13 AMIf I remember correctly, in our world, prior to the era of the Crusades which started at the end of the 11th century, there was less hostility between the Abrahamic faiths than later became the case. This was especially true in Moorish Spain.
500 years of constant conquest 'less hostile'? Hardly. The carnage across the mediterranean was appalling, with obliteration of cities and civilizations stomach turning. North Africa wasn't a desert until the Muslim invasions, it was covered with cities.
The reputation of Moorish Spain as highly tolerant and peaceful comes from a short stint of 3 generations...during an occupation that lasted for 4 centuries.
The Deryni though would have watched and experienced the invasions thanks to the Portals though. It's a quick way to escape and spread the word; some portals would survive in ruined cities - I can well see a Deryni deciding to have a winter holiday in the ruins of the Pentapolis.
I'll ask here, since I'm unclear on an issue of religious protocol... A bishop of Kelson's time-- more properly addressed as "Your Grace" or "Your Excellency"? And what level of reception would a bishop get when summoned to court? Any thoughts?
A bishop is "Your Excellency." An archbishop is "Your Grace."
As to the level of reception, I'm not awake enough yet to speculate, but I'll try to come back to the idea later when the caffeine has worked its magic. ;)
This is all a bit off the top of my head as I don't currently have access to any of my books.
It would, I think, depend on seniority, both in terms of the importance of the See and length of service. I tend to think of bishops of being the equivalent of earls and archbishops as dukes and being accorded the same courtesies as their secular equivalents.
It would also depend on the nature of the summons, as to the degree of formality.
Quote from: DesertRose on August 06, 2022, 12:20:31 PMA bishop is "Your Excellency." An archbishop is "Your Grace."
As to the level of reception, I'm not awake enough yet to speculate, but I'll try to come back to the idea later when the caffeine has worked its magic. ;)
Thanks!
Quote from: Laurna on June 22, 2022, 11:39:02 PMEarly R'Kassi were nomadic tribes. per the codex, the region converted to Muslim faith during the time of the Prophet Muhammad.
king Jasher Haldane (983)had been a lay knight in the Order of St Willibrord. This order was well known for having daughter houses in the East to spread the Christian faith. I believe the codex says that the modern king's of R'Kassi and Trellia and the Hort of Orsal had been converted by the time of Kelson. I also think Even the Anviliers were a mix of both faiths since many of them had come from families who had fled Gwynedd.
From what I can tell, the first Christian (i.e., Byzantine) interpretations of Islam were that it must be something Jewish-- it accepted the Old Testament but not the New. Borderlands are always places where syncretism happens, and in its early years, Islam had to spend time and effort making sure that there was one clear version of the faith. I do wonder what a world would've looked like where there were syncretic versions of Islam that survived. I guess I'm thinking of places like R'Kassi as one of those.
Many in the Byzantine Church considered Islam to be an offshoot of the Arian Heresy as they considered Jesus to be one of the great prophets, but not deity.
Mapping the history of religions into a fictional universe would be a challenge. The two primary branches of the Church were the Greek and Latin regions (Greek to the East and Latin to the West) with the Great Schism beginning around 1054 A.D. resulting in a drifting apart over the next few centuries. The Russian Church would have added to the mix by the 11th century. The Celtic Church, probably existing from before the third century, had some distinctions that lasted a good while due in part to their distance from Rome and the influence of the only Western Patriarch.
Both Latin and Greek had strong influences on the political structure and a Bishop would have had significant influence in a capital city.
The title for a bishop would also have depended on where you were standing at the time. "Your Excellency" was used in the West with "Your Grace" in the East. In the East you would also find "Master" (or the local language equivalent such as Sayedna) used to address a Bishop.
A lot more to the history of things with lots of complex things shaping the outcome. I am sure that in a different universe, things could be a good bit different.
Quote from: ARLipscomb on January 04, 2023, 07:42:46 AMMany in the Byzantine Church considered Islam to be an offshoot of the Arian Heresy as they considered Jesus to be one of the great prophets, but not deity.
Mapping the history of religions into a fictional universe would be a challenge. The two primary branches of the Church were the Greek and Latin regions (Greek to the East and Latin to the West) with the Great Schism beginning around 1054 A.D. resulting in a drifting apart over the next few centuries. The Russian Church would have added to the mix by the 11th century. The Celtic Church, probably existing from before the third century, had some distinctions that lasted a good while due in part to their distance from Rome and the influence of the only Western Patriarch.
Both Latin and Greek had strong influences on the political structure and a Bishop would have had significant influence in a capital city.
The title for a bishop would also have depended on where you were standing at the time. "Your Excellency" was used in the West with "Your Grace" in the East. In the East you would also find "Master" (or the local language equivalent such as Sayedna) used to address a Bishop.
A lot more to the history of things with lots of complex things shaping the outcome. I am sure that in a different universe, things could be a good bit different.
Great to have you on board! I think you'll enjoy it here! And I for one always enjoy discussions about history and mapping history onto fictional universes.
I'm still struggling with the idea that bishops are elected by Synod (as I believe happens in some churches which are members of the Anglican Communion). Being CofE myself, I have visions of Vacancy-in-See committees having conniptions.
I'm sorry that I have only vague memories.
There is a printed story of Arilan studying the Talmud. Not The Deryni Archives, the ... other one?
I'm pretty sure I saw a Gwynedd bishop getting "Your Grace" and blinking because it doesn't match seeing others get "Your Excellency".
I'm pretty sure Katherine Kurtz mentioned somewhere that Deryni got the hate that In Our Timeline went to Jewish and Muslim people.
The story is "Arilan the Talmud Student" written by Daniel Kohanski and Jay Barry Asneer. It is in Deryni Tales, an Anthology of Deryni stories written by various authors and selected by Katherine. There is one story, The Green Tower, written by Katherine. Here Arilan is 14 and a student when he first hears of the Talmud and develops a desire to study it. He eventually finds an elderly rabbi who agrees to help him. It is a lovely story and I think you would enjoy it. It provides some unique insights into Arilan's early years.DFK
I've just re-read the Introduction to the 2004 edition of Deryni Rising mentioning that "the Church of Gwynedd takes on a profile more high Anglican than Roman Catholic". For your amusement, I've attached a picture of current "liturgical" instruction from the liberal catholic (high church) tradition of the Church of England.
LOL! As a member of the Altar Guild, I feel that! Also,no soap or detergent in the cruets, please, unless you plan to be the one rinsing all the suds out afterwards so our wine doesn't end up with bubbles next Sunday!
Nor indeed cleaning a chalice with silver polish and not washing it properly afterwards (happened to a colleague of mine)
I have no experience with church equipment (am Jewish) but I know from kiddush cup experience that you better wash out any silver that had wine in it ASAP, or it will corrode and make all future drinks taste awful...
Quote from: Avisa on December 11, 2023, 11:11:17 PMI have no experience with church equipment (am Jewish) but I know from kiddush cup experience that you better wash out any silver that had wine in it ASAP, or it will corrode and make all future drinks taste awful...
I hadn't thought about that! Good advice!
Quote from: Evie on December 10, 2023, 12:04:23 PMLOL! As a member of the Altar Guild, I feel that! Also,no soap or detergent in the cruets, please, unless you plan to be the one rinsing all the suds out afterwards so our wine doesn't end up with bubbles next Sunday!
I wonder if Kelric Morgan will have some fun with this concept..
I wonder if they have as much problem estimating the probable numbers of communicants at Midnight Mass as we have (look at last year's, think of a number, half it, add twenty, give up). We do reserve.
Quote from: JudithR on December 19, 2023, 10:08:52 AMI wonder if they have as much problem estimating the probable numbers of communicants at Midnight Mass as we have (look at last year's, think of a number, half it, add twenty, give up). We do reserve.
I am not a very religious person, but I do try to attend Christmas Eve midnight mass at the Episcopal church downtown. It's a lovely old church, and the communicants at midnight mass are usually very lovely people.
One of my favourite services. A busy time for the ecclesiastical house elves though.
Not to mention you have absolutely no idea how many of those present will receive communion. Made even more fun since Covid when not everyone now receives the wine.
And then there is a problem with carol sheets. One year when I was Vicar on a big council estate outside Birkenhead (when Evie used to call me a fierce wild priest!) things were as normal until about 2 minutes before the service so we went ahead and used our fairly limited number of carol sheets. What I didn't know was that since the local RC church had decided to hold their "midnight" mass at 9.30 a breakaway segment of their congregation had decided to come for an actual midnight up the hill at the Anglican Church and about 30 extra people piled in at 2 minutes to kick-off. Running out of Carol sheets we rapidly gave out hymn books while someone hastily compiled a dual set of numbers. All well and good except it transpired that the verses didn't necessarily correlate either.
On a different but related note it's interesting that none of the local RC population seemed fazed that I was a woman - my wedding ring and husband were far more puzzling.
Happy days!
I could so use the services of some house elves just now. I promise I would give them socks on Boxing Day.
This house elf is making frantic lists for the next few days. We have two weddings (small) today and a funeral in the Octave as well as the usual services.
The crib is in pieces in two different locations and I am obsessing about batteries, sufficient oil in the candles to see us through, and the correct Orders of Service for the plethora of services. As a Reader, I don't, this year, (thank you new Incumbent) have to preach or act as Liturgical Deacon...
We can't match Revanne's extra attendees at Midnight, but are sending orisons skywards that all who attend are (reasonably) sober.