Transfer Portals for trade

[MerchantDeryni]

I've wondered why no mention has ever been made of the mundane uses tranfer portals could be put to.  An ecclesiastical portal network kep monasteries, churches and Michaeline outposts held together in a what seems to be little used network of communication.  In Camber of Culdi the Michailines hide all their knights and supply them using portals, so it sems obvious that a fair amount of material CAN go through a portal.

Camber used portals most often to keep in contact with his family and act on issues of the Camberian Council.  He even discoverd old hidden portals to good effect.

But consider the following, and you may want to use Google maps and get directions from Paris France to Istanbul, Turkey.  I could mention 11 Kingdoms names, but using Google I can use the trade routes information from Wikipedia and it makes more sense.

Paris to Istanbul is between 2800 and 2900 km, or about 1800 miles give or take.  In the medieval period it was journey on horseback of months. 

Now suppose an enterprising group of Deryni began from their homes outside Paris and travelled across Europe.  Every 50 to 100 miles they find a family with an unused room in the basement, or have a shed built, or do something that lets me finish this example.  And they take out their Wards Major Cubes and they build a transfer portal.  It can be done, it has been done in the books several times.  So now there is a matrix that they have the coordinates to.

They carry on east, and using 50 miels as a conservative benchmark they build 40 portals across Europe.  Once they get to Istanbul they buy pepper, cloves, butmeg, saffron and silk, taking advantage of the trade center that is Istanbul at the time (Constantinople actually, but Istanbul on Googlemaps).

So if they buy 50 pounds of spices they then begin to go home.  Let's assume four jumps a day to make it easy and not a strain, although more jumps per day are almost certainly possible.

At 4 jumps a day that is 200 miles per day travel, and they get back to Paris in 10 days.  Pepper in the medieval times sold for its weight in gold, cloves and nutmeg and the spice trade in general started wars to see who had control of the profits.

A short jaunt north from Nuremburg to Berlin is 300 miles, and they could tie in the amber trade as well.  Frankincense, 'the breath of God' was the source of huge trade and income, hauled from Egypt all over the known world.  It could be moved without tolls, tariffs or taxes.

Geeky post, but teleportation always offers a means of smuggling and escape (as used in KK's works), information transfer, and making money. 

Convert this to the 11 Kingdoms and there may be stories of a Deryni smuggler underground network that funds itself selling incense to the very church that hates them so much.

[derynifanatic64]

Such a network could also be used for illegal trade too.  Drug smugglers could use a portal network to transport/distribute drugs to many areas.  And until the authorities catch on and devise ways to cut off this network, the smugglers could make an incredible amount of money.

[MerchantDeryni]

This is true, and I left out the Opium trade.  Smuggling of anything can be very profitable. 

Now the network would be vulnerable to severing, since each portal would only be within range of two other portals, the one east of it, and the one west of it.  So as a smuggler's route it is easy to get cut.  Alternate pathways coul be built in different locations, paid for by a single successful run.

I figure a Deryni could carry 50 pounds of material in a backpack.  Think of the value of 50 pounds of anything illegal and expensive. 

[DesertRose]

Not saying that this isn't a valid point of discussion (please, discuss away.  Have fun with it!), but as KK herself said in Deryni Magic (referring to Jewish people), "absence of proof is not proof of absence."

We haven't spent a lot of time in the Deryni world with the merchant class, and the few merchants we've seen were not Deryni.  That is, of course, not to say that there are no Deryni merchants; I should think there would have to be some, somewhere.

So who's to say that Deryni merchants or non-Deryni merchants who aren't afraid of Deryni don't use Transfer Portals to transport their goods?  There's just no telling.

[MerchantDeryni]

it's partly an interesting intellectual excercise in what one could do with teleportation.  Jump disc and teleport booths of Larry Niven, Jumper by Steven Gould.

As for Deryni, any survivor who could make a Portal would (in my fanfic efforts at least), have a safe room with a portal, and the knowledge of at least 2 portals to escape to, one being a friend's house, and the other a small shack on the Moors as a last ditch getaway. If an angry mob comes calling, blip, out the sideways door and be 20 or 30 miles away in the hills.

As for not being in trade.  They do not have to be the face of the organization, they are the batteries or engines of it.  They carry the material for the merchants.  Certainly they might rise to mercantile power by not carrying anything on any but their own networks.  Any Deryni can use their power to operate a portal from what I understand, even if they do not know how to make one, they could still make a fortune carrying small amounts of material.

A pound of pepper used to be worth a weeks wages in Roman times, and swapped weight for weight in gold in medieval times.  So if a Deryni got to carry material for a network, and made the 40 jump trip in 10 days, that is a years wages in Roman times.

Swap the concept for the drug smuggling mentioned by Derynifanatic64 and the North South trade in cocaine and you have millions of dollars that could be moved from basement to basement per day.  I cannot think of an illegal drug from Medieval times, so I jumped to present day. 

I just find the idea interesting, and thought I would share with the class. 

[Evie]

It's not smuggling of goods, or carried out on a huge scale, or done for profit, but I used Transfer Portals to establish an "Underground Railroad" sort of evacuation route in my story "The Least of These", about Deryni fleeing persecution during the time of the Custodes Fidei and a human family who aided in that effort.

[Rahere]

There's a more fundamental point, though: are these "beam me up Scotty" mechanicals or "special intercession" I-made-it-so-I-can-bend-My-own-Laws divine gifts? The consacration rite for a portal suggests the second. And if so, then it explains why there is no trade usage - moneychangers-in-the-temple not being something the Divine encourages, not to mention refusing to work through those who have not seriously cleansed themselves in repentant confession first. That's why the rite isn't a million miles away from warding, both adjust the boundaries of space-time to obstruct the unauthorised. What might be interesting is to discover exactly what they're warding against: if you invoke the Archangels or higher Powers, then does it attract the infernal? Is Helena about to be visited by a succubus? Another area to investigate is what would happen if the Archangels were invoked in the wrong places? Nothing? St Michael ordering matters, flaming sword in hand?

[Evie]

What might be interesting is to discover exactly what they're warding against: if you invoke the Archangels or higher Powers, then does it attract the infernal? Is Helena about to be visited by a succubus?

Say-what-HUH???  Helena wasn't even mentioned in this thread, so what exactly is it that you're on about here?  I iz a confuzzled kitteh!   

There's a more fundamental point, though: are these "beam me up Scotty" mechanicals or "special intercession" I-made-it-so-I-can-bend-My-own-Laws divine gifts? The consacration rite for a portal suggests the second. And if so, then it explains why there is no trade usage - moneychangers-in-the-temple not being something the Divine encourages, not to mention refusing to work through those who have not seriously cleansed themselves in repentant confession first.

Unless I've missed something in your theory, there seems to be one fatal flaw in your proposal:  the events in KK's novels themselves don't seem to bear it out.  It's not only the Deryni bent on good and noble purposes who are able to utilize the Transfer Portals.  Charissa uses one (the one in the sealed off chamber that later becomes the Royal Library Annex) in order to secretly gain access to Rhemuth Castle when she is plotting against Kelson, and later on, Wencit of Torenth (or was it one of his henchmen?  At any rate, not exactly someone with altruistic intent!) uses the Portal that Denis Arilan built in order to snatch little Brendan away from his mother Richenda.  So unless you're arguing that perhaps these uses were somehow allowed by the Divine in order to aid in some Higher Purpose that Our Noble Heroes on the Side of Light missed completely in their non-omniscience, then I don't think the theory holds much water.  And even if one argues that point, then that still leaves open the possibility that the Divine might allow smugglers to misuse a consecrated Portal for some time, if their use of it ultimately ends up serving some higher purpose.   

Personally, I think the warding of the Portal area during the creation of one is more of a protective measure against the massive upswelling of power involved in that creation process inadvertently becoming uncontained and injuring bystanders.  But once the Portal is fully created, I think it becomes essentially neutral, like fire (able to be used for good purposes, bad ones, or purposes that have no particular moral alignment) or, for that matter, like Deryni powers.  And just like someone with a divinely bestowed gift or talent can certainly choose to misuse it for selfish ends, I suspect the same thing holds true for items crafted by the use of Deryni powers, such as Portals, Ward Cubes, etc.

[Alkari]

Agree that there is nothing in the novels to suggest that there is any sort of "Divine" purpose or aspect to the creation or use of transfer portals.    Indeed, I would argue the contrary: as Alaric eloquently explains to Dhugal in TBH (using the example of conjuring fire), the Deryni powers themselves are neither good nor evil.  It is the use to which those powers are put which is the issue.   In the case of objects created using those powers, such as portals, the analogy still holds.  The object itself is neutral, but it can be used for good / bad / neutral purposes.  

And whatever the relevant thread, for the life of me I just cannot see anything in Evie's current story which would indicate that Helena has been, or is about to be, visited by a succubus!  If you want one of those, you will need to go read her story "Possessed"  

[Bynw]

I personally do a lot of gaming. And my homebrew game world has had Deryni in them long before the Deryni RPG ever came out and back to the point where the Deryni were written up in a Dragon Magazine article for the 1st Edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. In my game world of Teara Adan, the Deryni are very well known and not a repressed race at all, unlike how  they are in the 11 Kingdoms. In Teara Adan, the Deryni are merchants, craftsman and rulers along side their human and a few other races.

Teara Adan does indeed have several Transfer Portal networks. There is the Ecclesiastical network, used by the Holy Church. These Portals are in Churches and monasteries the same way they are found in the 11 Kingdoms. There are also private portals as well, used by families and closed to outsiders, just as we find many of these in the 11 Kingdoms. Then Teara Adan also has "public portals". These are located generally within a city square someplace and are accessible to anyone who wishes to learn the coordinates of the portal. Used for trade, travel and whatever the user wishes. In Teara Adan it is customary to drop a few coins when departing from a portal and when you arrive at the destination portal (for the public ones). An honor system and not really a tax or fee to use the portal, just a gesture of goodwill for having one built in the area.

[MerchantDeryni]

Ahh Dragon #68, Introduction to the Deryni, and the first Psionicist as a class writeup.  I still have that issue.

Teleportation has been a long time standard method of moving plot from setep A to B.  In a world as rickly detailed as KK's, you can start looking at what happens when scenarios.

Information.  10 days to have news in person from 2000 miles away, battles, storms, lost ships.

Telepathic long distance communication could mean real time diplomacy.

Or you have 40 Deryni working one in every portal location.  Portal 1 jumps to portal 2 and hands over the mail bag and delivers anything bound to portal 2 area over to local works.  Portal 2 person jumps to portal 3 and repeats the action.

You can have a letter hand delivered in 3 hours across 2000 miles.  Any mail going back is handled the same way, and each person only jumps twice a day.  So with careful planning, and jumping only when the next person in line hands over the goods, you can get from one end to another in a day.

Even humans can get paid to do this.  They can be used as power sources for Deryni.  So the network could be used several times to move more goods and services up and down the linkages.

[Alkari]

Your scenario about the mail service is fine, except that it does seem to require a LOT of Deryni, all basically standing by to make it work 'whenever'.      And if I have read the books correctly, the Deryni were not very numerous anyway, even in their heyday.  Although they are more numerous in Torenth and some other kingdoms, they are still only a very small proportion of the general population.  In one of the books (forget which), it is pointed out that because a number of the ruling families happen to have Deryni blood, their influence has always been a little disproportionate to their actual numbers anyway, and after 200 years of persecutions and killings, it will take quite a while for Deryni numbers to get back to anything like they were even in Camber's day.   

There is such a lot of lingering suspicion, fear and often hatred of the Deryni that it is going to be very much a case of "hasten slowly" in Gwynedd and related kingdoms, so I suspect that a network of public transfer portals will be a long, long way off yet.  Don't forget that if "anyone" can use them, what is to stop an invasion force using them and moving troops through to take over key locations very quickly?  Bring troops through to sympathetic private portals, plus take over a few key public ones - I don't know that the Eleven Kingdoms are ready for that concept just yet!

You can see the value of a public network for trade, but there could be some interesting issues about fair competition.  If your normal human merchants have to take their goods by land or sea in a lengthy and costly process (exposed to dangers on the way), but Deryni can move them 'instantly' via a TP network, then you can just see the complaints arising because the Deryni merchants have an instant cost advantage.   That is not going to do human - Deryni relations much good, as you would quickly get a very disgruntled human merchant class.  It would of course be open to enterprising Deryni to set themselves up as shipping agents for human traders, but the humans would have to pay for the service, once again putting them at a disadvantage to Deryni in the same business who can use private portals freely.

The same would go for smuggled goods.   There'll always be humans attempting to smuggle goods and evade taxes, but at least they are operating on a 'fair' human/human basis and taking the risks.  If there's a suspicion that there is a Deryni smuggling network going on - well, apart from any ruling Deryni landholders not wanting to lose income, you are also going to get that natural human jealousy.   It's a fairly short step from jealousy to stirring up trouble and re-igniting old hatreds ...   (An out of pocket Deryni ruler chasing Deryni smugglers might be interesting fanfic fodder!!)

I'm sure there already are various Deryni merchants and craftsmen in the Eleven Kingdoms, but certainly they would be few and far between in Gwynedd these days (and very well hidden) and they would take great care to do business in a normal human way so as not to arouse any sort of suspicion.   The society in Bynw's gaming world is obviously very different to that in KK's Eleven Kingdoms Deryni world, so that a public TP network would not have the same issues as would potentially face it in Gwynedd, etc.

[Rahere]

Real-time diplomacy? A contradiciton in terms, having observed the real thing in action.
What happens is somebody has an idea and runs it up the flagpole in one of the international sherpa forums.
It gets noted by the other sherpas who pass it on to their ministries after the meeting. They've gone home by then so it's tackled the next morning.
The reply has to be typed and approved, so that takes all day, and gets sent back the next day, by which time the original bod is in the next meeting and doesn't see it until that night. He discovers the reviewer hasn't grasped the original point, wanting to twist it for the purposes of his own internal policy ambitions, and has to refer it back again for clarification. The cycle repeats, but by that time the sherpa's had fresh instructions for the next meeting which cut across the reply and so by the time the next conflab happens a week later all they've done is add confusion. Multiply that by however many nations are involved and you have a recipe for fear, uncertainty and doubt.

[MerchantDeryni]

Alkar:  The number of Deryni needed to make this work would be 1 per 50 miles, or 1 per 200 miles if you jumped 4 times in 1 day. So 40 Deryni or 10 Deryni.  Since any Deryni can use a portal (since a Deryni can provide the power to the portal), they can even use humans as batteries as I mentioned.  In the Camber series there were a lot of Deryni families.  Arranging a house and such in Camberian times would be far easier than the later series I grant you.  As I said before in the thread, this is just a mental excercise in looking at what is possible with portals, and making a portal network in a long line rather than a web.

As for the number of Deryni around, I thought the Michaelines had high numbers of Deryni, and all the courtier families prior to Camber the Heretic were Deryni families.  Get the second and third sons to carry stuff for a tenday and make a years pay.  ASk commoner Deryni to man the portals if the nobles are too refined to actually carry something.

Heck you could make a portal with half a dozen Deryni, if I recall Deryni Magic Camber made have done it solo, possibly using Guairre as a human battery. (sadly I cannot find my copy right now, so if somone could fact check that for me.)

You could make portals in odd locations, old ruins, caves, shacks out on the moors etc.  So in the end, worst case scenario.  You have six Deryni who know the locations of 40 oddly located portals who use it to make a lot of money for themselves.

As for competition complaints, yup, probably be a lot if people knew about it.  That's sort of the point of the whole thread, using the teleportaion concept as more than a trope to move plot, it BECOMES a plot issue.
Would humans want to/be willing to be drained by Deryni to move their own goods along the network?  Are governents going to want to have a system of portals that can bypass tolls and move troops across their borders unchecked? Will merchants fight to make caravan carried goods get tax breaks?  Spice caravan camels could carry 500 - 1000 pounds per camel, and a single driver could ride one and lead 6, so 3 tons per man got moved. You would bneed a lot of men to carry that much through a portal.  So bulk carrying may be beyond the capability.  Which is why I focused on high value items. If a pond of spice is worth a weeks pay... I'd carry 50 pounds of it and make a yearts pay in a week and a half.  Do it once a month, I will even pay taxes.

So do merchants get stuck carrying the bulk comodities and the slower bulk spices, and miss out on the prime deals of "first in port".  Will they ahte teh Deryni for it?  Probably.  I just think it is a cool idea, it does not necessarily have to be a magic wand solution for all Deyni problems.  But  a story could be written (and I am geeking out writing a fanfic one myself).  Of the growth of a private network, and what they do to make money, protect themselves, their secret, and  fight for what they think is right.

[Alkari]

Oh, it would certainly be "possible".   I was just tossing up some of the very real practical and political issues that would undoubtedly arise, and as I said, even in Camber's time, we know that the Deryni families weren't numerous in comparison to the rest of the population.

The other main aspect is the actual construction, and the training and energy that are required.  It is not a simple matter, nor something that would be taught in your basic Deryni Skills years 1-5       Quote from Deryni Magic:-
Given the technical skill and energy output required to construct a Transfer Portal, we can surmise that Portals probably were never really numerous, even at the height of Deryni ascendancy.  We do know that an ecclesiastical Portal network existed, at least amnog the religious houses with Deryni members, but we have no indication of the size of this network.  In any case, it seems to have been in decline even by the time of Camber.

Perhaps your smuggling network would be more likely to use existing portals, the participants finding convenient excuses to be there in the various locations at set times, or at least having reasons to be there if discovered.  What about a corrupt priest or bishop?     One who had a hankering for the finer things in life and wasn't above taking a cut of any proceeds by letting certain high value items come through - or decided it was a good way of getting some financial support for various charitable works.  "My son, I will indeed look the other way once a month, but you will need to make a large donation to St Simon's Home for those of Unsound Mind each time.  Just leave it in the black chest."    Could even be an active part of the network himself  If you have a portal network in cathedrals, I'm sure there could be a blackmarket in cheap but excellent Church wines, not to mention gold, incense, spices to liven those boring meals, etc.