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Saint Camber

Started by Lochiel, July 22, 2017, 03:28:28 PM

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Lochiel

Saint Camber makes his first appearance to Alaric while Alaric his attempting to work on empowering Kelson.  I know we have discussed St Camber vs Stefan Coram appearances and I assume its St Camber, but I wonder.  St Camber appearing during a Haldane empowering makes sense, wonder if he showed up during other new Haldane kings?
Also of interest was Ian Howell ( who I assume was given Deryni powers by Charissa?) mentioning Stefan, and also being told about the CC.
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Bynw

Kelson is special when it comes to the Haldane Kings. Not only is he a Haldane and can assume the powers associated with all of those in that line. He is also Deryni by his mother. In many ways he is like a Deryni version of King Javan. If Javan was able to do what he could have done. We would have a completely different 11 Kingdoms by the time. But that is why St. Camber appeared at Kelson's empowering. Did he show up at others? Maybe depending if they had the ability to impact the Deryni in a positive light.

Yes Ian Howell was brought to power by Charissa. Making him similar to the Haldanes in that respect. I'm sure he knew about the CC but had Charissa's viewpoint on them.
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Lochiel

I'm rereading the Deryni series and watching for Saint Camber vs Stefan Coram appearances. I'm in the beginning of DC (pg 38) and Alaric has a dream where he see Kelson, & Duncan talking with someone (Hugh de Berry) and Duncan's facial expressions are "drawn, troubled, and angry" "And than the ghostly , cowled visage he'd come to associate with legend last fall-Camber of Culdi, the renegade saint of Deryni magic"
Saint Camber or Stefan?
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

drakensis

Kelson isn't the first Haldane king to have Deryni blood - his great-great grandfather Urien's mother Swynbeth was half-Deryni (to the extent it's a distinction) through the female line. In fact, she was a descendant of Camber - one of Rhys and Evaine's great-grandchildren.

Alaric and Duncan are cousins twice over - Kenneth Morgan was Jared McLain's first cousin IIRC - and the applicable great-grand-parents (Arnall McLain and Adelicia FitzArthur-Quinnell) were each descended from one of Swynbeth's siblings.

Kelson does have the distinction of being descended from Camber AND from Lewys ap Norfal.


Laurna

#4
Hello Locheil,  I tend to think of the real Saint Camber as the moments when a positive, guiding hand is needed. Moments that are spiritual - such as a blessing or an empowering, or ethereal- his hand upon your hand- giving the Healer the Knowledge necessary to use his untrained talents, or guiding-a pointing to find that information which you seek such as a book in a library.

The more physical contacts would be those from Stefan, anytime there is conversation or events pertinent to the political atmosphere. What we do not know is exactly how Stefan's spell works and if it has been used by other members of the CC over the course of their history. Has the spell been used before to manipulate others to follow the paths the CC dictates? 

My personal belief is that the spirit of the real Camber can be witnessed by his Deryni blood descendants when he brings himself into the earthly plane. Being a blood relative is an important factor. There may also be very special circumstances, such as Kelson's crowning, where Camber's presence can be seen by all Deryni who have opened their senses enough to detect him. At least that is what is implied at the very end of DR. But I often wonder about what those members of the CC who are not descendants think of Camber's sightings? Do they think that all sightings of Camber in the past are attributed to this spell, which  can be used by CC members. What does Denis Arilan think when he hears of Alaric or Duncan's spiritual encounters with the saint? I don't believe Alaric ever told Denis about the other pair of hands over his hands when he Heals.

I heartily agree with drakensis about the family lines.

May your horses have wings and fly!

Lochiel

I am rereading the Deryni series and currently on DC.  I also find it strange that Saint Camber & Stefan Coram both begin to show up around the same time to Alaric & Duncan.  I know we discussed it on another thread but I do find it strange that Stefan knows that Duncan is of "Corwyn".  I'm rereading the series to look for the "St Camber" vs "Stefan Coram" appearances.
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Laurna

#6
Correct me if my memory is wrong, but the conversation that Camber/Stefan Coram makes reference to happens between Alaric and Duncan while they are in Alaric's tower.  Guess what else is in Alaric's tower- a very large shiral crystal for scrying. We do not know the exact means in which Alaric acquires this crystal. Personally, I suspect Stefan or another CC member may be using that crystal to scry on the Duke of Corwyn. What at the moment I remember not, is if Alaric raised the wards around the tower before he and Duncan spoke or if he had not gone to that means of protection?
May your horses have wings and fly!

revanne

Good point Laurna. I had never thought of the Shiral, and the knowledge of that conversation had always puzzled me.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

Laurna

#8
I can not take the credit for figuring this out. Somewhere, a while back, I read an essay on this. I believe it was in the Zipper Sister articles. Therefore, we should send out a good thank you to Susan and Melissa, aka Shiral. I remember going "Ah Ha!' after I read about it.
May your horses have wings and fly!

Lochiel

Laurna,
That is a great find. Thank you. That explains allot! (but not all) lol
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

HoundMistress

I just re-read the first & second books and don't recall Alaric raising wards before he & Duncan talked. He would have had no reason to worry about being overheard in his own tower room, but he may not have thought anything about his new shiral crystal.
Judy Ward
You can buy a pretty good dog with money but you can't buy the wag of its tail.

Laurna

#11
All the times you see Crystal balls in use, be it movies or gypsies or Lord of the Rings(yes, remember that large obsidian crystal ball where you could see things but Mordor could see you), you will notice a cloth placed over the Crystal ball while not in use. I don't think that cloth is not there to keep the dust off the crystal. In myth and legends, Crystal ball's are a scrying device. You cover it to keep others from scrying upon You!  Alaric was still in the learning phases about this, to his and Duncan's dismay.  ;)
May your horses have wings and fly!

Lochiel

Another mystery to me. When Stefan/Camber warned Duncan that he would have to use his powers more and more openly and than Duncan had to reveal his Deryni heritage in front of Warin & Gorony & Co, even Duncan later on speculates how did the Stefan/Camber figure know that ahead of time? 
Another line of thought, how did St Camber appear to Stefan as he was dying inside the magical barrier during the Dual Arcane? 
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

DesertRose

Quote from: Lochiel on September 04, 2017, 11:36:54 AM
Another mystery to me. When Stefan/Camber warned Duncan that he would have to use his powers more and more openly and than Duncan had to reveal his Deryni heritage in front of Warin & Gorony & Co, even Duncan later on speculates how did the Stefan/Camber figure know that ahead of time? 
Another line of thought, how did St Camber appear to Stefan as he was dying inside the magical barrier during the Dual Arcane?

Since (I believe, assuming my memory is accurate) Stefan Coram had at one point been on the Camberian Council, it's possible that he had access to records (that most of the Council seems not to have bothered reading or they don't know the records exist/where they're stored/whatever, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist) of Deryni genealogies, and given that Morgan and Duncan are both descendants of St. Camber himself, one would tend to think that information is in some genealogical data somewhere (maybe wishful thinking on my part, combined with Laurna's charts on which she has worked and is continuing to work incredibly hard!  Thanks, Laurna; you're awesome! :D )

If it was actually St. Camber who told Duncan he was going to have to be more open about being Deryni, then he would know, wouldn't he?

As for St. Camber appearing as Stefan dies, your guess is as good as mine. ;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)