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The Deryni blood in the Haldane line

Started by BishopCullen, June 23, 2007, 02:29:20 PM

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BishopCullen

The Camberian Council has discussed this topic.  Where does King Kelson get his Deryni blood from?  The obvious answer was his mother, Jehanna, a deryni who did not want to acknowledge her true heritage.  I propose it was far earlier, and it was in direct line from Holy Saint Camber himself.  Hang on and follow this...From Camber-his daughter Evaine.  Married Rhys Thuryn.  Their daughter Rhysel.  Married Robert Ainslie.  Their daughter Tiphane.  She married Tammarron, Duke of Cassan.  Their daughter Lady Swynbeth married Cluim Haldane, the last surviving son of King Uthyr, son of King Rhys Michael.  Of course, this is only valid if the daughter of Rhysel and Robert has any deryni blood at all, since Robert was human.

Old English

As far as I understand it the Deryni gene is dominant, so Tiphane would be a half-breed Deryni with active powers - the same as Alaric and Duncan.  Reasonable theory for the appearance of Deryni blood in the Haldane line but personally I've always thought it was there from way before.

Wasn't it Camber and Joram's discovery of shields in Cinhil that planted the idea of being able to awaken Deryni-like powers in the Haldane line in the first place?  I could be wrong - I haven't read the Camber series for quite a while.

Bynw

You are correct.

There has been an infusion of Deryni blood into the Haldane line periodically though out its long history. The Festilic claim is due to such a union of Haldane kings and Deryni queens.
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derynifanatic64

Festil I was the great, great, great grandson of King Aidan Haldane from the late 600's, according to the Codex.
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heretoday

I am in the middle of re-reading The Bastard Prince and Michaela Drummond wife of King Rhys Michael Haldane's and mother of Uthyr was deryni - her mother was Elinor Howell, mother of Ansel Macrorie, Michaela and her brother Cathan were from her second marriage to Jamie Drummond after her husband Cathan Macrorie was killed. 

Braniana

From what I'm about to post, I've clearly spent way too much time looking at this stuff.  Apologies in advance if this is a case of too much information.

Prior to the Interregnum, there were 5 Haldane-Furstan marriages, 3 of which had significance to the Haldane bloodline:
-Augarin's son Bearand married Kypriona Furstana (son, but no grandchildren)
-Augarin's daughter Betradis married King Aldred Furstan
-Augarin's son Aidan had 2 daughters marry Furstans
     -Bethany married King Imre Furstan (son of Aldred and Betradis)
     -Moira married Aleksy Furstan
-Augarin's grandson Ryons (by son Llarik) married Raphaela Furstana (daughter of Imre and Bethany)
And Cinhil was Ryon's and Raphaela's great-great-great-grandson.

An interesting topic of speculation: how much power those Haldane's might have had, with or without training.  I'd agree it a logical way to explain Cinhil's genetic receptivity to the powers bestowed on him.

And while these Deryni marriages probably didn't contribute much to Kelson, after that many generations' remove, there have been a handful since that may have refreshed what was there before:

-Michaela Drummond married Rhys Michael, as previously mentioned.  Neither the Drummond or Howell familes were particulary strong strains of power, but there was at least something there.
-Uthyr (son of Rhys and Michaela) married Grania MacInnis (daughter of Iver MacInnis and Richeldis MacLean.  Granted that Richeldis' power (what little there was) was blocked in adolescence, but I recall Joram and Co, believing/speculating that blocked parents would still transmit the power down to their children, so Grania may have gotten a tiny bit from her mom.
-Nygel (son of Uthyr and Grania) married Susanta Howell (Sudrey's great-granddaughter).  No surviving sons, and even Sudrey's daughter didn't have hardly any powers other than shields, so moot point with this marriage.
-Cluim (son of Uthyr and Grania) married Swynbeth FitzArthurQuinnell, with ancestry listed above.  Likely a powerful jolt since it traces to Camber.
-Brion (Cluim's great-great-grandson) married Jehana, which is logically the primary source of Kelson's non-Haldane powers.
-And since Brion's son Kelson (with his dual powers) has married Araxie (also with dual powers, or at least the potiential to have both), their children will undoubtedly be formidable.

Old English

#6
Nice bit of research, Braniana!   ;D

Quote from: Braniana on July 08, 2007, 11:50:53 PM
-Uthyr (son of Rhys and Michaela) married Grania MacInnis (daughter of Iver MacInnis and Richeldis MacLean.  Granted that Richeldis' power (what little there was) was blocked in adolescence, but I recall Joram and Co, believing/speculating that blocked parents would still transmit the power down to their children, so Grania may have gotten a tiny bit from her mom.

My thoughts on this is that Richeldis's power being blocked would have been a psychic intervention and have no effect on genetic inheritance - unless the block was implemented by a Healer with sufficient knowledge and skill to be able to manipulate chromosomes - so logically her children would still carry Deryni potential.

Perhaps Deryni genetics is a whole other subject though!  :o

Kansas Bear

Quote from: Braniana on July 08, 2007, 11:50:53 PM
-Brion (Cluim's great-great-grandson) married Jehana, which is logically the primary source of Kelson's non-Haldane powers.


I thought it had been mentioned or stated that Jehana was Deryni, albeit a self hating one.

Braniana

Yes, she is.  As the Camberian Council states (somewhere), Jehana has pure Deryni lineage from both parents.  Maybe the 3rd Childe Morgan book will go into at least a little of how she ended up loathing what she was so much. 

derynifanatic64

The Camberian Council also mentions that Jehana is also related to Lewys ap Norfal.  Norfal's daughter was married to Sief MacAthan and was having an affair with Donal Haldane resulting in the birth of Krispin.  The Council hinted that Jehana was not aware of her relationship to Norfal, but maybe she was?
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Braniana

Thought I remembered reading somewhere (maybe on alt.books.deryni) that one has to go back prior to the interregnum to find the common ancestor between Jehana and Lewys.  Could be wrong, but that's what I recall.

Adam

#11
Jehena is Lewys' Great Grand Niece.

The Deryni blood connection in the Haldane line is interesting, however I think it may be near irrelevant in the long run. Not to diminish the great research done because I think it paints a good picture that despite an interegnum and a number of conflicts over magic, the Haldanes have often ignored the stigma when it came to picking their spouses. However, in one of the books there was an add-on piece about the genetics of the Deryni where it listed that the Chromosomes determine the Deryni or not. It was shown there that the Deryni gift is passed through only the X chromosome. That would determine that if the father was a deryni he had only a 50/50 chance of passing his Deryni abilities on to a child if the mother was human. However because it is the X chromosome, any child by a Deryni mother would inherit it, thus Jehena being Deryni in fact guaranteed that Kelson would bear the blood. Alaric and Duncan, despite their life time of stigma would be as full a Deryni as any other. True to Kelson as well, who in fact may have been above most Deryni as his abilities were not only genetic but he also had the full power of the Haldane knowledge and power. I sadly don't have mu collection available to me right now but I will amend with the book that has the Gene breakdown, or if someone else has read it and remembers. A level of ability might be as much nurture as nature. Matyas Furstan's training took him past his brothers magically. Cathan MacRorie never seemed to show the relative power of his brother or sister.

BishopCullen

another possibility makes me amend my earlier statement.  most likely, cinhil married deryni.  cambers ward, megan de cameron.  i find no proof positive that she was deryni, but if she was, here is where is enters the House of Haldane.

the Bee

 :) You're probably thinking of KK's article "On the Genetics of Deryni Inheritance," in High Deryni.  In the original version, there was another gene, carried on the Y chromosome, that enabled men to assume Deryni-like powers.  This is the gene that Cinhil and his male descendants possessed.  The new, revised edition of High Deryni may have modified this; I haven't seen it yet.

Braniana

I was pretty sure I remembered that Megan was human.  With the Deryni Festils in power when her parents died, it would explain why her wardship (as an heiress) was given to a Deryni like Camber, rather than to her uncle Bayvel de Cameron.