Summonings and Portals

[Salic]

In the summoning of creatures that is proposed in this thread, it has made me to wonder if there are any instances of object teleportation that is occurring in the Canon.  Given the powers of the Deryni, and I think that they are more powerful than they usually appear in Canon, I think that this is possible.  I share whitelaughter's appraisal of the powers of the Deryni.

I have heard that Duke Alaric Morgan most likely secretly teleported without the use of a transfer portal in The King's Deryni.  If the direct teleport of an operator can occur, direct teleport of an object apart from the operator would seem to eventually follow, given various situations.

Does anybody have any thoughts on these things?

[Bynw]

In the summoning of creatures that is proposed in this thread, it has made me to wonder if there are any instances of object teleportation that is occurring in the Canon.  Given the powers of the Deryni, and I think that they are more powerful than they usually appear in Canon, I think that this is possible.  I share whitelaughter's appraisal of the powers of the Deryni.

I have heard that Duke Alaric Morgan most likely secretly teleported without the use of a transfer portal in The King's Deryni.  If the direct teleport of an operator can occur, direct teleport of an object apart from the operator would seem to eventually follow, given various situations.

Does anybody have any thoughts on these things?

I'm not aware of any use of teleportation in the Deryniverse, in canon, without the use of a Transfer Portal. Including objects being moved from distant places to Deryni traveling to distant places by magical means.

If such a thing was mentioned or even hinted at in TKD. I would love to know the chapter and page. Otherwise I would have to re-read it.

[Salic]

In the summoning of creatures that is proposed in this thread, it has made me to wonder if there are any instances of object teleportation that is occurring in the Canon.  Given the powers of the Deryni, and I think that they are more powerful than they usually appear in Canon, I think that this is possible.  I share whitelaughter's appraisal of the powers of the Deryni.

I have heard that Duke Alaric Morgan most likely secretly teleported without the use of a transfer portal in The King's Deryni.  If the direct teleport of an operator can occur, direct teleport of an object apart from the operator would seem to eventually follow, given various situations.

Does anybody have any thoughts on these things?

I'm not aware of any use of teleportation in the Deryniverse, in canon, without the use of a Transfer Portal. Including objects being moved from distant places to Deryni traveling to distant places by magical means.

If such a thing was mentioned or even hinted at in TKD. I would love to know the chapter and page. Otherwise I would have to re-read it.

I'm not aware of it, directly, as well, Bynw.  From what I understand, there is a scene in TKD where Alaric's presence is unexplained and seems to point to teleportation.  I'm not sure, though, of the specific passage in question.  I've heard this being claimed about TKD several times.  I'm curious what people may know about this.

[Evie]

Maybe you are thinking of Sir Sé's mysterious appearances at key times when Alaric needs him? I can't remember any scene where Alaric has an unexplained appearance somewhere (and that would seem like a pretty advanced level of magic for a lad who is only partially trained), but Sé had a habit of appearing and disappearing seemingly out of the blue at pivotal moments, which is likely some secret ability he learned from the Anvillers.

[whitelaughter]

Given the wide set of skills Alaric has demonstrated, but his limited magical training, any unexplained sudden appearances are more likely to be due to mundane sneaking.

[revanne]

And possibly lurking too.

[Salic]

Maybe you are thinking of Sir Sé's mysterious appearances at key times when Alaric needs him? I can't remember any scene where Alaric has an unexplained appearance somewhere (and that would seem like a pretty advanced level of magic for a lad who is only partially trained), but Sé had a habit of appearing and disappearing seemingly out of the blue at pivotal moments, which is likely some secret ability he learned from the Anvillers.

Thank you for this information, Evie.  For some reason, I was thinking that Alaric had that ability.  I haven't read TKD for many years and have forgotten much.

I suspect that the Knights of the Anvil have a bigger story about them than the Canon seems to indicate.   

[Salic]

In a sense, whitelaughter's implicit idea concerning time travel by the Deryni makes sense.  When we look at the Canon, we see that when the Deryni teleport between two transfer portals, their transportation is instantaneous.  Time is conflated into the moment of use between, and within, the continuum of the two transfer portals.  Since there is not the usual ongoing time/space existence as we experience in mundane experience, it would seem that time travel is occurring among the Deryni.

Wouldn't it be proper to say that there is a hyperspace jump between two transfer portals, to borrow a concept from science fiction/fantasy?  This is an idea that has fascinated me for a long time.

[Bynw]

I believe that time does pass during all of those things and more. Even in Doctor Who it takes 3-6 seconds to dematerialize and again to rematerialize the Tardis no matter how for in Time/Space it is moving.

For the Deryni, it is a mere heart beat or two of time that passes between the blink from one portal to another.

With Hyperspace travel in science fiction. It depends greatly on which science fiction. Travel sometimes takes minutes. Sometimes it takes hours and longer. Some times it's a set time no matter the distance traveled. But time does pass during the "between time". Even, like in the case of the reimaged Battlestar Galactica jump drives, where it is but a few scant seconds between the time the Galactica vanishes and reappears elsewere.

At least that's my observation.

[Salic]

I believe that time does pass during all of those things and more. Even in Doctor Who it takes 3-6 seconds to dematerialize and again to rematerialize the Tardis no matter how for in Time/Space it is moving.

I'm not familiar, Bynw, with the Dr Who franchise stories and so I do not understand what you mean by dematerialze and rematerialize.  I understand that hyperspace, generally considered, is a linking from one time/space location to another time/space location. From what I understand, if something or someone is transiting through hyperspace, it is merely the transiting through the space and does not involve a change in molecular being (i.e. de- and rematerializtion).

For the Deryni, it is a mere heart beat or two of time that passes between the blink from one portal to another.

That has been my understanding of the Deryni corpus.  This is what I think must happen with a psionics-based hyperspace jump.

With Hyperspace travel in science fiction. It depends greatly on which science fiction. Travel sometimes takes minutes. Sometimes it takes hours and longer. Some times it's a set time no matter the distance traveled. But time does pass during the "between time". Even, like in the case of the reimaged Battlestar Galactica jump drives, where it is but a few scant seconds between the time the Galactica vanishes and reappears elsewere.

At least that's my observation.

I agree, Bynw.  That has been my conclusion concerning all of the space opera works I've read over the years.  I understand there is much speculation regarding the technological issues involving hyperspace as it is argued in physics.  If one considers in technologically based hyperspace jumps, there is the possibility of the starship needing its own "pocket universe" including a space/time component, to allow those transiting the hyperspace to biologically survive.

I do not think that this would be needed by psionics such as, I think, the Deryni.  If they have the capacity to teleport by means of transfer portals, it means they have the necessary safeguards to transit safely thru whatever continuum that they have fashioned using their portals, and they can make the transition fast.

I find this subject fascinating.   

[duck]

It seems to me that a lot of the ritual deryni magic (and indeed invoking the wards) involves balancing energies – four quarters with four archangels and four cardinal points blah blash blabble.

Although we often suspect that magic often disregards things like the laws of physics – I have wondered whether a transfer portal (which needs to constructed on stone or exposed earth) essentially allows the excess energy from this activity to be "earthed" (for want of a better word) and that the user has to absorb/compensate for the extra energy generated for portal transfers of longer distances that isn't necessarily absorbed by the portal itself.

I seem to recall something about how frequently used portals are easier to transport to and or operate.  It would suggest that teleportation without using a portal is theoretically possible but extremely dangerous as the teleportee needs to compensate for all those laws of physics ... mumble mumble mumble.  Perhaps that was what Lewys ap Norfal was experimenting with although I suspect his experiments were even more radical.

As an aside - would it be possible to undertake a ceremonial activity which doesn't invoke four points?  Two points? (positive and negative) three points? five points?

[Salic]

It seems to me that a lot of the ritual deryni magic (and indeed invoking the wards) involves balancing energies – four quarters with four archangels and four cardinal points blah blash blabble.

I would agree, duck.  My impression (from a psionic, non-magical, point of interpretation) is that the Deryini need to use ritual to hold back the destructive elements of the Deryni collective unconscious in the performance of their "magic".  One of the dangers present in magic, with all forms of fantasy involving magic is the danger of loss of operator control of what is being done. The ritual seems to craft the safeguards to the magic.

This same issue of the danger of the lack of operator control is present in science fiction/fantasy involving psionics.  That fiction, I think, is much more involved with the psychology behind behavior and action which fascinates me.

Although we often suspect that magic often disregards things like the laws of physics – I have wondered whether a transfer portal (which needs to constructed on stone or exposed earth) essentially allows the excess energy from this activity to be "earthed" (for want of a better word) and that the user has to absorb/compensate for the extra energy generated for portal transfers of longer distances that isn't necessarily absorbed by the portal itself.

I seem to recall something about how frequently used portals are easier to transport to and or operate.  It would suggest that teleportation without using a portal is theoretically possible but extremely dangerous as the teleportee needs to compensate for all those laws of physics ... mumble mumble mumble.  Perhaps that was what Lewys ap Norfal was experimenting with although I suspect his experiments were even more radical.

For those that interpret that Deryni corpus in magical terms, the problems of speculative physics would not seem to be important in that the Deryni mages would have the power to modify space/time reality in such a way as to be 'god-like'.  If the ritual is meant to order the progression of the magic effect and guard it against the dangers of magical operations, the formalization of it also has another sociological meaning.  If the ritual is either known or hidden, it allows for the stunting and control of Deryni magical education.

I tend to think of KK's beliefs are less rooted in the magic and in is based in the more conventional understanding of Christian religious belief and psionics.   Her book, Deryni Magic (published 1990), does make provision for both a magical and psionic interpretation of her Deryni corpus.  I think, though, that in her final edition of Deryni Rising (published 2005), she makes the psionic interpretation of Deryni corpus paramount in her introduction "Putting the Deryni Into Perspective".  Therefore, I think that scientific speculation about supposed Deryni magic is important concerning KK's stories.

I'm not sure what to say about Lewys ap Norfal.  I'm still in the process of becoming reacquainted with KK's writings after many years.  I want to have a psychological understanding of the man before making comment on him and his abilities.

As an aside - would it be possible to undertake a ceremonial activity which doesn't invoke four points?  Two points? (positive and negative) three points? five points?

I'm not sure what to say about these nuances of Deryni ritual.  This will have to be answered by someone else.

[ReikiDeryni]

In the real world that "babble" of summoning archangels, elementals et al is used in some shape or form in almost all forms of magic. What I have read, talked with actual practitioners, experienced and participated in ritual magic some form of what you said is used. I myself have actually used, successfully several of the ones derived from the Deryni books, because KK's rituals are based on real world magic/Wicca or whatever you or others call it.

[whitelaughter]

It seems to me that a lot of the ritual deryni magic (and indeed invoking the wards) involves balancing energies – four quarters with four archangels and four cardinal points blah blash blabble. 

Yes, and indirectly, we know that this is happening. If the Deryni simply jumped, then there would be an implosion at the portal where they left, as air rushed into the space the Deryni occupied; and the air at the arrival point needs to be removed instantaneously to prevent the Deryni dropping dead from oxygen poisoning. (Simplest solution is that the Deryni swaps location with the air).

[Salic]

I thought I'd comment on this, whitelaughter.

It seems to me that a lot of the ritual deryni magic (and indeed invoking the wards) involves balancing energies – four quarters with four archangels and four cardinal points blah blash blabble. 

Yes, and indirectly, we know that this is happening.

This is unclear to me.  I understand the importance of balance in a psychological and moral sense.  I do not understand in a specific magical sense.

If the Deryni simply jumped, then there would be an implosion at the portal where they left, as air rushed into the space the Deryni occupied; and the air at the arrival point needs to be removed instantaneously to prevent the Deryni dropping dead from oxygen poisoning. (Simplest solution is that the Deryni swaps location with the air).

I would strongly agree with the displacement of air in the teleportation.  There are no descriptions in the Deryni corpus indicating a popping sound in the use of a transfer portal.

I don't know where oxygen poisoning would occur in teleportation.  Are you conceiving of the use of a transfer portal involving some sort of momentary high pressure causing oxygen saturation?  I hadn't thought of that before.