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Morgan and Arilan

Started by Wren, February 11, 2023, 04:25:32 PM

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Salic

#30
I interpret the Camberian Council primarily functioning as an underground resistance organization fighting against those who would oppress both human and Deryni.

I think that their power is based upon what Bynw has already observed, the religious sentiments of the Deryni.  They are also powerful Deryni mages.  I also believe that they have an active espionage net throughout the Eleven Kingdoms.  I also believe that the effectiveness of this net waxes and wanes over time.  I do not think that the Council is simply a "talk shop".

I also think that they can, to a limited extent, undertake active measures involving sabotage and assassination, if they think that a situation is dire enough.  Active measures, I think, would be aimed more at humans rather than Deryni, given the latter are more dangerous in an individual combat.

With this understanding, I do not think that the Council would have active operational control but would have underlings performing those operations.  Below them would be the case officers (to use modern parlance) who would run the agents.

I think that the Council was largely Evaine's creation.  Since it is a clandestine religious establishment, it will be more circumspect than other religious establishments, such as a medieval inquisition seeking raw, naked power.  I believe the Council was, and is, specifically designed to fight any political and religious inquisition, both human and Deryni.

I think that the Council has value and should be viewed more positively.

revanne

I think that that was how it was set up but over the years there has been a tendency for some Council members to see the power they wield as an end in itself. Because that's what people, Deryni or human, tend to do.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

ReikiDeryni

Salic, I think it was as much Camber's as anyone else's, especially after finding that treasure trove of scrolls and the hidden/abandoned chamber in Grecotha. If I recall rightly, it started with a side discussion between Camber, Evaine and Joram while in that chamber. It was to help keep wayward and dangerous Deryni in check as much as possible. The rituals, oaths and powers of the Camberian Council started from there. By the time of Kelson we know from what is written and said  by several characters that the Council is not what it used to be by a long shot

Salic

Quote from: ReikiDeryni on February 03, 2024, 11:32:39 PMSalic, I think it was as much Camber's as anyone else's, especially after finding that treasure trove of scrolls and the hidden/abandoned chamber in Grecotha. If I recall rightly, it started with a side discussion between Camber, Evaine and Joram while in that chamber. It was to help keep wayward and dangerous Deryni in check as much as possible. The rituals, oaths and powers of the Camberian Council started from there. By the time of Kelson we know from what is written and said  by several characters that the Council is not what it used to be by a long shot

I would agree, ReikiDeryni, that institutions change over time. It is unavoidable given that institutions must change over time to remain relevant.  We can note how King Kelson strove to change the church from what it was under the Council of Ramos that condemned the Deryni.  I would also agree that there are also deficiencies in the people who have occupied the Camberian Council much as in the various human and Deryni dynasties.  In a medieval period, there is little to check the power of the kings, nobles and clergy, and so it is easy for social elites to do as they wish. 

I like to put myself in the place of a person living in this society.  At this point, would I want to have a monarchy or nobility unchecked in power?  I would not.  Would I want a church unchecked in power?  No, I would want the king or nobles have some check on it's power.  Given the structure of human/Deryni social relationships, I think Camber and Evaine's idea of the need for an institution, which could serve as a counterweight to the church and nobility is essentially sound.  Regrettably, human/Deryni society has not yet developed a representative Parliament that includes the merchants and landed gentry that could bring a more rational order to that society. 

ReikiDeryni

Silac, unfortunately we only have hints of what happened to the Council and the "religious" aspects after the end of the Heirs of Camber trilogy in the later era trilogies and books with which to wonder and judge. In Yoda-speak...pondered much I have that.

Salic

#35
Quote from: ReikiDeryni on February 07, 2024, 11:21:43 AMSilac, unfortunately we only have hints of what happened to the Council and the "religious" aspects after the end of the Heirs of Camber trilogy in the later era trilogies and books with which to wonder and judge. In Yoda-speak...pondered much I have that.

I would agree, ReikiDeryni.  Sociologically considered, for most authoritarian systems, the truth of something is tied to the power structure and morphs as that structure changes.  I'm inclined to view the human/Deryni society society in the same way.  I do not read the Deryni Canon as something that should be taken at face value.  I think that there's much more going on in the writings of Katherine Kurtz.  An author's words always extends further than its surface meaning.  I think the words beckon us to consider more about them.