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Morgan and Arilan

Started by Wren, February 11, 2023, 04:25:32 PM

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DerynifanK

"Thanks be to God there are still, as there always have been and always will be, more good men than evil in this world, and their cause will prevail." Brother Cadfael's Penance

Wren

#16
Quote from: reiki deryni on February 23, 2023, 12:37:35 AMI like and understand where Arilan is coming from, BUT I understand Morgan's view also. Still ultimately in my "humble" opinion, Arilan has the stick too far up his ass towards Morgan

I agree, Reiki Deryni. I also understand Arilan's POV, but I agree his attitude toward
Morgan is cocky and judgemental. Particularly from a member of the clergy, Arilan should have had more compassion and empathy in Dhassa. Morgan had narrowly been saved from being burned at the stake and all Arilan focuses on is destroying the shrine. Yes, I would have understood that attitude in public, but Arilan humiliated him in private about it too.

While I get Arilan's " long view" that flagrant use of Magic hurts the Deryni cause long term, Arilan fails to realize that Without Morgan using his magic, Gwynedd as they know it would not exist. There would be no Kelson because The Marluk would have killed Brion without Morgan's magic.

I also think that Morgan has not and maybe cannot forgive Arilan for not doing something to help Jorian from being burned. Alaric the boy wanted to intervene to try to prevent it, but didn't have the power or knowledge at that time. Imagine how he felt about someone who HAD the knowledge and power failing to help.

I would almost venture to say that self taught Morgan, now imbued with the power to heal, may be more of a powerful Deryni than Arilan or his council.

In my view, I get Arilan's reasons, but his treatment of Morgan is wrong.


Stitcher001

I'm very late into this chat.  I always thought Morgan was pretty hard done by because he was only half Deryni and not a full one; yet despite that, it looks like Morgan is more powerful and he's had to learn it all by himself.  The CC have been very narrow minded.  You're either a Deryni or you're not.  Morgan may only be half Deryni, but he IS a Deryni and he has the power.  The poor duke has had a target on his back since before he was born, whereas Arilan's heritage was secret.  Yes, he's had to work on keeping it that way.

It's a miracle Morgan has turned out to be the man he has.  He has never really known who he really is, because be's been 'bred' to be what everyone else wants him to be.

Arilan could have done more for both Morgan and Duncan.  The CC seems a bit snobbish about being a whole Deryni.  At least that's what I feel.
Jacqueline Armitage

tmcd

Quote from: Stitcher001 on January 01, 2024, 02:50:38 PMThe CC have been very narrow minded.

Insert meme picture: "You don't say".  ;D

Bynw

I totally agree that the Cambrian Council is narrow minded, high minded, and a few other terms that have to be removed due to politeness.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
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tmcd

Can perform colonoscopies on themselves by turning their heads.

DesertRose

Quote from: tmcd on January 02, 2024, 01:42:23 PMCan perform colonoscopies on themselves by turning their heads.

I got myself in a spot of trouble on an official SCA Zoom meeting by saying that some people needed to correct their cranio-rectal inversion.

(Privately I was told I wasn't wrong but perhaps ought to run ideas past my brain before letting them pass my lips.   ;D  ;D )
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

ReikiDeryni

Those who took issue with your analogy, they may very well be the ones doing it to themselves ;D

Shiral

For years, the Camberian Council has collectively behaved as if they had sat down on something sharp. I really couldn't blame Kelson for not leaping at the opportunity to serve on it. And they took offense when he turned them down. I thought they might have stopped and thought about his possible reasons for declining. Kelson might well feel that he when he took  his coronation oath, that was the most solemn pledge he's ever given. And he feels that his responsibility to his Kingdom supersedes all other duties. It wouldn't be surprising if he felt this way, since his whole childhood was focused on preparing him for Kingship, while he only even learned of the Camberian Council's existence after he'd already become King. Feeling that Gwynedd comes first for him and he didn't want to be placed in any possible conflicts of interest is a pretty natural and sensible conclusion for him to have drawn. I do think Arilan and the rest of the CC members ought to have been more respectful of that.
Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

ReikiDeryni

Shiral, I think part of the answer of why Kelson told the Council to bugger off was by way of his suggestion that they seat Alaric or Duncan instead, as much as his duty as King. Since the beginning of their (Kelson, Morgan & Duncan) encounters with the Council, it's been one of being looked down upon by most of the Council's collective noses at them in some fashion. Kelson sense of righteousness and fairness would surely be tweaked at the very least.

DoctorM

Quote from: ReikiDeryni on January 15, 2024, 03:31:00 PMShiral, I think part of the answer of why Kelson told the Council to bugger off was by way of his suggestion that they seat Alaric or Duncan instead, as much as his duty as King. Since the beginning of their (Kelson, Morgan & Duncan) encounters with the Council, it's been one of being looked down upon by most of the Council's collective noses at them in some fashion. Kelson sense of righteousness and fairness would surely be tweaked at the very least.

I very much agree with that last point.

Salic

#26
I tend to think that the abrasiveness between Morgan and Arilan is unavoidable and is to be expected.  It would be strange if this conflict was not there.  They are representatives of different power centers found within Deryni society.  As the matter stands, Morgan for the royal, and Arilan for the council, and so, at times, they must be adversaries.  In a medieval society, such conflict is to be expected concerning those that are jealous and ever-guarding of their power.  I think that the Camberian Council is functioning as a quasi-governing institution, an unelected parliament checking the royal power of the kings within the Eleven Kingdoms.  I think of them having long established rights and prerogatives. 

I think that the Council should not be looked upon too harshly.  I think it is merely human (Deryni) nature.  With their claims, and likely superior knowledge of Deryni magic, they would tend to look down on those not part of their number or having their magical knowledge. 

I think that it would also be naive of any king, such as King Kelson, trying to get one of his representatives, such as Morgan, onto their Council.  Why would that Council allow that, in effect allowing a king to monitor its affairs and seek to veto its operations?  Not all kings would be as wise as Kelson.  In the final analysis, Kelson, I think, needs Morgan as a witan within his own privy council. I think that's where he'd be more useful to him there.

DoctorM

There's the whole question of exactly what powers the Council is asserting. What exactly does it *do*? What powers (and how much power) does it claim over individual Deryni? How far does it claim its powers reach? Gwynedd (and maybe the Forcinn)? All the Eleven Kingdoms? And what kind of legitimacy does it have? The Council seems to co-opt replacement members without consulting anyone. It seems to have agents and enforcers, but to whom is the Council accountable? That's all a mystery.

Bynw

Quote from: DoctorM on January 27, 2024, 06:42:36 PMThere's the whole question of exactly what powers the Council is asserting. What exactly does it *do*? What powers (and how much power) does it claim over individual Deryni? How far does it claim its powers reach? Gwynedd (and maybe the Forcinn)? All the Eleven Kingdoms? And what kind of legitimacy does it have? The Council seems to co-opt replacement members without consulting anyone. It seems to have agents and enforcers, but to whom is the Council accountable? That's all a mystery.

It exerts power over the whole of the 11 Kingdoms. As it has warned Torenthi Kings not to interfere in the workings of Gwynedd. It's members range from across the 11 Kingdoms as well.

The claim to legitimacy is the founding members were mostly Camber's Heirs and he was one
of the greatest Deryni mages in recent memory. And the restorer of the Haldane line. It must have some legitimacy since Wencit was going to use the fake Council Members as his moderators to the Duel Arcane he planned with Kelson. If it had no legitimacy then Wencit wouldn't have bothered at all. They also have 200 years of being known built up.

They are self-governing and self-appointed from within. They answer to no one outside of themselves.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
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ReikiDeryni

Their power, at least by the time of Kelson anyway seems to be mostly by the individual's consent. Also what has been written shows there has been multiple incidents of defiance by individuals pretty much since the establishment of the Council.