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June 19, 2024, 07:10:03 PM

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How does it come about that Jehana acquires such Deryni hatred in Bremagne?

Started by Liesel, September 11, 2022, 09:09:05 AM

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Liesel

The strong anti-Deryni bias in Gwynedd, and particularly the church in Gwynedd, developed during the backlash after the restoration.

Jehana is from Bremagne. The Laws of Ramos should not have had any effect there, nor should the other changes that were the outcome of the restoration.

How did Jehana acquire, from her convent schooling in Bremagne, such hatred and mistrust of Deryni? What is the connection between the anti-Deryni developments in Gwynedd, and Bremagne?

DoctorM

Liesl-- there are Deryni in Bremagne as well as Gwynedd. The same dynamics-- fear, largely --that created anti-Deryni feelings in Gwynedd would apply in Bremagne as well, even without the Festillic Conquest. Deryni are a group with seemingly inexplicable, dangerous, magical powers. That's enough to excite suspicion and dislike.

Bynw


After the Deryni backlash in Gwynedd, many of the surrounding Kingdoms and states downplayed their Deryniness. Although we know there is a high Deryni population in many of the surrounding kingdoms. It's just not talked about. And some, to keep the peace with Gwynedd, might have stopped training young Deryni.

Jehana is Deryni, and potentially a powerful one. She is the great-grandniece of Lewys ap Norfal after all.

But she was educated in a Convent where the Abbess was a notorious Deryni-hater. Thus she would have been taught to hate Deryni there.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
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Kareina

Quote from: Bynw on September 11, 2022, 07:04:14 PMBut she was educated in a Convent where the Abbess was a notorious Deryni-hater. Thus she would have been taught to hate Deryni there.

She didn't *know* that she was Deryni growing up. Do we know if her parents knew? Is it multipile generations of Deryni rulers Bremagne who are untrained? Or was her generation the first for which the kids weren't told?

It seems to me that sending one's Deryni child to be educated in a Convet with a Deryni-hating Abbess would count as active child abuse if the parent knows they are Deryni.

(And if the family doesn't know then it would take a series of weird coincidences in who they were marrying their children too to keep the family full Deryni)
--Kareina

Liesel

Quote from: Bynw on September 11, 2022, 07:04:14 PMAfter the Deryni backlash in Gwynedd, many of the surrounding Kingdoms and states downplayed their Deryniness. Although we know there is a high Deryni population in many of the surrounding kingdoms. It's just not talked about. And some, to keep the peace with Gwynedd, might have stopped training young Deryni.

I don't remember this coming up in any of the books.  Where did you see this?

Quote from: Bynw on September 11, 2022, 07:04:14 PMJehana is Deryni, and potentially a powerful one. She is the great-grandniece of Lewys ap Norfal after all.

This I don't remember.  I don't remember seeing anything about her bloodline?  Is this from the Codex? I've read just about everything else :-)

Quote from: Bynw on September 11, 2022, 07:04:14 PMBut she was educated in a Convent where the Abbess was a notorious Deryni-hater. Thus she would have been taught to hate Deryni there.

Two questions here.  First, who is this notorious Abbess?  I don't remember seeing any mention of who she was.

Second, and most important -- this is really my main question -- institutionalized, religious Deryni hatred outside of the Church of Gwynedd; how did that come about?  I am under the impression that Deryni hatred would have existed throughout the ages, but the Church's institutionalized anti-Deryni stance started with the Council of Ramos.  How and when did this affect other countries?

Quote from: DoctorM on September 11, 2022, 04:34:29 PMLiesl-- there are Deryni in Bremagne as well as Gwynedd. The same dynamics-- fear, largely --that created anti-Deryni feelings in Gwynedd would apply in Bremagne as well, even without the Festillic Conquest. Deryni are a group with seemingly inexplicable, dangerous, magical powers. That's enough to excite suspicion and dislike.

Before the Interregnum, was there institutionalized, religious, Deryni hatred in Gwynedd?  Most likely there have been Deryni-haters here and there throughout history, anywhere there were Deryni.  However, making it a religious issue appears to me to have been an outcome of the backlash after the Restoration.  I do not remember that we see evidence of this anywhere else, nor previously.  Where is there evidence of this?

Bynw

President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

drakensis

I don't know if there's a specific statement as to where anti-Deryni prejudice in other lands came from.

My suspicion is that after Festil I seized Gwynedd and enacted some rather oppressive laws to protect his Deryni supporters, that there was a wave of departing objectors, at least among those with the resources to leave - such as nobles and clergymen.

There is a western church broadly similar to the Gwynedd church but centred on Bremagne and serving at least Howicce, Llanned and Connait (the Festillic coup may even have been what split the two churches). This likely absorbed those dissenters, to which we'd likely couple the perfectly justfiable reaction of the rulers of these neighbours: fear that Festil was only the first Deryni prince to leap west and seize new lands. (They'd be right, Kheldour was seized by Festil I and his little brother, not to mention other smaller acquisitions. Likely other conquests could have followed if Festil I hadn't died and his heirs been less ambitious.)

The 'Deryni menace' was likely feared by Gwynedd's neighbours for decades... and the spearhead of the backlash after the Haldane restoration may have been the descendants of refugees, now returning to claim lands and titles they'd lost by fleeing the Festils.

So it's entirely probable that Bremagne has a longer standing suspicion of Deryni than Gwynedd, although it may also be less bitter.

Liesel

Quote from: Bynw on September 12, 2022, 05:31:29 PMYes most of this information is in the Codex.

Thanks.  I just borrowed a copy of the Codex, oh, my, this could be too much fun......if I didn't have to work also :-) 

Liesel

Drakensis -- interesting, and reasonable, explanation.  Wish there were something written to show this, but I guess our esteemed author has to leave some things to our imagination!

DoctorM

I'd think that just being Deryni would arouse suspicion. Here's a group of people who could be anybody and who have these powers that can't really be explained. Deryni just *are*. And it's an easy thing for ordinary folk to look at Deryni abilities and feel some mix of envy and fear. It's an easy step for locals and the Church to start taking for granted that Deryni abilities must be gifts of the Devil.

DerynifanK

In general people don't understand Deryni powers and people tend to fear what they don't understand and try to destroy it.
"Thanks be to God there are still, as there always have been and always will be, more good men than evil in this world, and their cause will prevail." Brother Cadfael's Penance

Laurna

Love to see the Deryni obsession spreading to new members. Have fun with the Codex.
May your horses have wings and fly!

DerynifanK

Thriftbooks online has a wish list where you can list books you want. They will notify you when they get one. That is where I found my copy of the Codex. Good hunting.
"Thanks be to God there are still, as there always have been and always will be, more good men than evil in this world, and their cause will prevail." Brother Cadfael's Penance