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Religions

Started by DoctorM, June 22, 2022, 06:30:43 PM

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DoctorM

It's clear that in the novels, Gwynedd and points west seem to follow a Church that's medieval Catholic with a dash of earlier Celtic Christianity. Torenth and the East follow some mix of Greek and Russian Orthodoxy. And there are Moors, though...I wonder what exactly that means. The world of early Islam had its own schisms, and not just Shi'a and Sunni. How would Deryni fit into an Islamic world? (I've always thought of the Queen's Moors as being...maybe a bit Sufi or Ismaili)

Do groups like the Anvillers accept some Moorish beliefs?

And someone here raised the question once of R'Kassi. Are the R'Kassans Muslim (or quasi-Muslim)? Do they follow a syncretic Christianity? Or even a syncretic Judaism?

What *are* your thoughts on religions outside of Gwynedd and Torenth?

Evie

IIRC, Prince Azim was an Anviller from a Moorish religious tradition,though it's been so long since I read KKB, I might be misremembering.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Laurna

Early R'Kassi were nomadic tribes. per the codex, the region converted to Muslim faith during the time of the Prophet Muhammad.
king Jasher Haldane (983)had been a lay knight in the Order of St Willibrord. This order was well known for having daughter houses in the East to spread the Christian faith. I believe the codex says that the modern king's of R'Kassi and Trellia and the Hort of Orsal had been converted by the time of Kelson. I also think Even the Anviliers were a mix of both faiths since many of them had come from families who had fled Gwynedd.
May your horses have wings and fly!

DesertRose

In "Trial," (Deryni Archives, the anthology of KK-written short stories published in 1986), Ferris the sword-smith, the (framed) defendant in the titular trial, venerates the All-Father, which suggests a polytheistic religion rather like the real-world Norse pantheon existing somewhere in the Eleven Kingdoms-verse.

Early in Camber of Culdi, Camber and Evaine spend some quality father-daughter time translating old epic poetry that references a pre-Christian tradition closer to "home," as it were.  (I'm guessing that said tradition is Druidic or similar, but that's my own speculation.)

KK also mentions in Deryni Magic that there must be a Jewish tradition somewhere, both because neither Christianity nor Islam would exist without Judaism and also Arilan references Talmudic precedent in the deliberations over the validity of Duncan's and Maryse's wedding (and thus the legitimacy of Dhugal's birth).

I'd guess there are others, as well, maybe off the map somewhere, or maybe a Ruman pantheon that predates Christianity.

Fun topic to consider and discuss!
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

revanne

If I remember correctly, in our world, prior to the era of the Crusades which started at the end of the 11th century, there was less hostility between the Abrahamic faiths than later became the case. This was especially true in Moorish Spain.

It seems likely that with Deryni playing the part of the "other" that there would be more acceptance of other - at least monotheistic faiths - in the Deryniverse. That's not to say that there wouldn't be some suspicion of difference, or a privileging of a region's particular faith, but there's a huge difference between that and wanted to slaughter the adherents of another faith.

From my own perspective I understand Deryni as having a greater openness to the divine (one of the things, I think, that made some human clerics so vituperative)  and therefore an understanding that all human knowledge of God is, to a greater or lesser degree, provisional.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

DoctorM

Good thoughts!


Quote from: revanne on June 23, 2022, 02:24:13 AMIf I remember correctly, in our world, prior to the era of the Crusades which started at the end of the 11th century, there was less hostility between the Abrahamic faiths than later became the case. This was especially true in Moorish Spain.

It seems likely that with Deryni playing the part of the "other" that there would be more acceptance of other - at least monotheistic faiths - in the Deryniverse. That's not to say that there wouldn't be some suspicion of difference, or a privileging of a region's particular faith, but there's a huge difference between that and wanted to slaughter the adherents of another faith.

From my own perspective I understand Deryni as having a greater openness to the divine (one of the things, I think, that made some human clerics so vituperative)  and therefore an understanding that all human knowledge of God is, to a greater or lesser degree, provisional.

whitelaughter

Quote from: revanne on June 23, 2022, 02:24:13 AMIf I remember correctly, in our world, prior to the era of the Crusades which started at the end of the 11th century, there was less hostility between the Abrahamic faiths than later became the case. This was especially true in Moorish Spain.
500 years of constant conquest 'less hostile'? Hardly. The carnage across the mediterranean was appalling, with obliteration of cities and civilizations stomach turning. North Africa wasn't a desert until the Muslim invasions, it was covered with cities.
The reputation of Moorish Spain as highly tolerant and peaceful comes from a short stint of 3 generations...during an occupation that lasted for 4 centuries.

The Deryni though would have watched and experienced the invasions thanks to the Portals though. It's a quick way to escape and spread the word; some portals would survive in ruined cities - I can well see a Deryni deciding to have a winter holiday in the ruins of the Pentapolis.

DoctorM

I'll ask here, since I'm unclear on an issue of religious protocol... A bishop of Kelson's time-- more properly addressed as "Your Grace" or "Your Excellency"? And what level of reception would a bishop get when summoned to court? Any thoughts?

DesertRose

A bishop is "Your Excellency."  An archbishop is "Your Grace."

As to the level of reception, I'm not awake enough yet to speculate, but I'll try to come back to the idea later when the caffeine has worked its magic.  ;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

revanne

This is all a bit off the top of my head as I don't currently have access to any of my books.

It would, I think, depend on seniority, both in terms of the importance of the See and length of service. I tend to think of bishops of being the equivalent of earls and archbishops as dukes and being accorded the same courtesies as their secular equivalents.

It would also depend on the nature of the summons, as to the degree of formality.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

DoctorM

Quote from: DesertRose on August 06, 2022, 12:20:31 PMA bishop is "Your Excellency."  An archbishop is "Your Grace."

As to the level of reception, I'm not awake enough yet to speculate, but I'll try to come back to the idea later when the caffeine has worked its magic.  ;)

Thanks!

DoctorM

Quote from: Laurna on June 22, 2022, 11:39:02 PMEarly R'Kassi were nomadic tribes. per the codex, the region converted to Muslim faith during the time of the Prophet Muhammad.
king Jasher Haldane (983)had been a lay knight in the Order of St Willibrord. This order was well known for having daughter houses in the East to spread the Christian faith. I believe the codex says that the modern king's of R'Kassi and Trellia and the Hort of Orsal had been converted by the time of Kelson. I also think Even the Anviliers were a mix of both faiths since many of them had come from families who had fled Gwynedd.

From what I can tell, the first Christian (i.e., Byzantine) interpretations of Islam were that it must be something Jewish-- it accepted the Old Testament but not the New. Borderlands are always places where syncretism happens, and in its early years, Islam had to spend time and effort making sure that there was one clear version of the faith. I do wonder what a world would've looked like where there were syncretic versions of Islam that survived. I guess I'm thinking of places like R'Kassi as one of those.

ARLipscomb

Many in the Byzantine Church considered Islam to be an offshoot of the Arian Heresy as they considered Jesus to be one of the great prophets, but not deity.

Mapping the history of religions into a fictional universe would be a challenge. The two primary branches of the Church were the Greek and Latin regions (Greek to the East and Latin to the West) with the Great Schism beginning around 1054 A.D. resulting in a drifting apart over the next few centuries. The Russian Church would have added to the mix by the 11th century. The Celtic Church, probably existing from before the third century, had some distinctions that lasted a good while due in part to their distance from Rome and the influence of the only Western Patriarch.

Both Latin and Greek had strong influences on the political structure and a Bishop would have had significant influence in a capital city.

The title for a bishop would also have depended on where you were standing at the time. "Your Excellency" was used in the West with "Your Grace" in the East. In the East you would also find "Master" (or the local language equivalent such as Sayedna) used to address a Bishop.

A lot more to the history of things with lots of complex things shaping the outcome. I am sure that in a different universe, things could be a good bit different.     

DoctorM

Quote from: ARLipscomb on January 04, 2023, 07:42:46 AMMany in the Byzantine Church considered Islam to be an offshoot of the Arian Heresy as they considered Jesus to be one of the great prophets, but not deity.

Mapping the history of religions into a fictional universe would be a challenge. The two primary branches of the Church were the Greek and Latin regions (Greek to the East and Latin to the West) with the Great Schism beginning around 1054 A.D. resulting in a drifting apart over the next few centuries. The Russian Church would have added to the mix by the 11th century. The Celtic Church, probably existing from before the third century, had some distinctions that lasted a good while due in part to their distance from Rome and the influence of the only Western Patriarch.

Both Latin and Greek had strong influences on the political structure and a Bishop would have had significant influence in a capital city.

The title for a bishop would also have depended on where you were standing at the time. "Your Excellency" was used in the West with "Your Grace" in the East. In the East you would also find "Master" (or the local language equivalent such as Sayedna) used to address a Bishop.

A lot more to the history of things with lots of complex things shaping the outcome. I am sure that in a different universe, things could be a good bit different.     

Great to have you on board! I think you'll enjoy it here! And I for one always enjoy discussions about history and mapping history onto fictional universes.

JudithR

I'm still struggling with the idea that bishops are elected by Synod (as I believe happens in some churches which are members of the Anglican Communion).  Being CofE myself, I have visions of Vacancy-in-See committees having conniptions.
"Judith may be found browsing in these dubious volumes" (9 letters)