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Portal Jumps

Started by Bynw, January 06, 2022, 08:29:33 AM

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Bynw


This is a snippet of a chat that took place a few days back in our chat room. I just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents worth.

Quote
[01-02 20:58] <+Eris> <Evie> But I think the Ile d'Orsal is about 600 miles or more from Rhemuth, so at least that
[01-02 20:59] <+Eris> <Nezz> Ah, that's good enough. I can figure out a 600-mile-jump to Fiji.
[01-02 20:59] <Laurna> sequal?  Love ti
[01-02 21:00] <Laurna> lets not jump through the core of the earth, might be a little hot
[01-02 21:00] <+Eris> <Evie> I can't recall if there is a portal jump in Canon from Rhemuth to Torenthaly or vice versa, but that would be even further

I took a look at my wall map. Yes mine hangs on the wall. And the Orsal's palace is about 325 miles from Rhemuth as the crow flies. This makes sense to me as a maximum distance of a portal jump. The reason this does make sense as a limit. Is the Law of Conservation of Momentum.

Basically distances greater than 300 miles would result in a change of body temperature, up or down, that would cause serious harm or death. Plus due to the rotation of the world, you could arrive and immediately loose your balance or even go flying into a nearby wall. 

This of course all uses real world physics and the limitations it would enforce on a teleported object.


President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
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Nezz

Quote from: Bynw on January 06, 2022, 08:29:33 AM

Basically distances greater than 300 miles would result in a change of body temperature, up or down, that would cause serious harm or death.


Ooh, interesting! What physics law is this based on?

It almost sounds like you're saying I'd be better off flying to Fiji rather than trying to figure out the best portalling route. ;)
Now is life, and life is always better.
-Wolfself

Evie

Quote from: Nezz on January 06, 2022, 09:51:57 AM
Quote from: Bynw on January 06, 2022, 08:29:33 AM

Basically distances greater than 300 miles would result in a change of body temperature, up or down, that would cause serious harm or death.


Ooh, interesting! What physics law is this based on?

It almost sounds like you're saying I'd be better off flying to Fiji rather than trying to figure out the best portalling route. ;)

Well, the more obvious problem with portalling to Fiji would be needing to know the precise coordinates of a destination Portal in Fiji beforehand....   ;D
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Bynw

Quote from: Nezz on January 06, 2022, 09:51:57 AM
Quote from: Bynw on January 06, 2022, 08:29:33 AM

Basically distances greater than 300 miles would result in a change of body temperature, up or down, that would cause serious harm or death.


Ooh, interesting! What physics law is this based on?


Law of Conservation of Momentum for one. There is a 2nd one, I think it might be Thermal Dynamics, but I don't remember off hand. But Teleportation has been discussed at length by many with how far someone can teleport without causing their own death.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

DoctorM

This is fascinating. I really enjoy this.
And it raises a couple of issues-- actual distances in the Eleven Kingdoms.

The Ile d'Orsal is 325 miles from Rhemuth as the crow flies? Hmmm...

Just as a comparison, it's 298 miles from Paris to London, 363 miles from Paris to Bordeaux, 341 London to Amsterdam, and 403 miles from London to Edinburgh. Or so Google tells me.

I'm wondering how far it is from Rhemuth to Valoret, or Rhemuth to Beldour?

It's disconcerting to think of how short distances in medieval times were when we're used to flying off a thousand miles or so for a long weekend.

Bynw

Quote from: DoctorM on January 06, 2022, 05:35:30 PM
This is fascinating. I really enjoy this.
And it raises a couple of issues-- actual distances in the Eleven Kingdoms.

The Ile d'Orsal is 325 miles from Rhemuth as the crow flies? Hmmm...

Just as a comparison, it's 298 miles from Paris to London, 363 miles from Paris to Bordeaux, 341 London to Amsterdam, and 403 miles from London to Edinburgh. Or so Google tells me.

I'm wondering how far it is from Rhemuth to Valoret, or Rhemuth to Beldour?

It's disconcerting to think of how short distances in medieval times were when we're used to flying off a thousand miles or so for a long weekend.


According to the poster map and my string connecting the points. So as the crow flys. Not using roads. It's bit over 120 miles between Rhemuth and Valoret. And it's about 475 miles between Rhemuth and Beldour. Too far for a single Portal jump.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

Laurna

It is 2800 miles from Los Angeles to New York City. Now that distance is 6hours by plane, 3 days by train, 3 months by bike, and 6 months by walking. In Deryni terms it would be about 10 portal jumps of 300 each and  a minimum of 4 days if you had the energy to do two or three jumps a day by yourself. That may be slow by our standards but incredibly fast to them.

Horses travel 12 to 75 miles in a 24 hour period.  Desse is 15-20 miles away and at an easy ride takes two hours. Valoret is about 175 miles away and can be ridden hard in three days or walked in seven days.  Kelson and Alaric ran their knights hard to get to Rhatharkin in 30 hours, They were still a few hours away from Ratharkin when they came across Dhugal and Sidana. Ratharkin is about 200 miles away, so they were practically flying. It likely took them 4-5 days to get back to Rhemuth at a better pace to save their mounts.

I am thinking that 300 miles portal jumps would be extreme. 100 mile portal jumps would be more for the average Deryni.  Special portals like the CC council room might be enhanced and tuned to the councilors so that they could get to it from greater distances.

And I still think (part of the chat conversation that bywn did not quote) is that you can not portal across oceans. Wide rivers- no problem - but the expanse of oceans or even the Eleven Kingdom's South Sea from Rhemuth to Bermagne would not be feasible. That is what ships are for.  and in Evie's modern world the Deryni still use airplanes.  ;)
May your horses have wings and fly!

DoctorM

Thanks to both Bynw and Laurna! Much appreciated!

I hadn't heard that the Southern Sea was a barrier to Portals. The distance at some points only seems to be forty or fifty miles.

It was about 1400 miles from home to university for me, and it always struck me as amazing that I could have breakfast while watching snowfall and have dinner outside on a patio.

Bynw


It's not that the sea is a barrier. It's the distance. You could theoretically make the jump. But the character wouldn't be alive at the end of it.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

Evie

#9
Quote from: Laurna on January 06, 2022, 07:59:13 PM


And I still think (part of the chat conversation that bywn did not quote) is that you can not portal across oceans. Wide rivers- no problem - but the expanse of oceans or even the Eleven Kingdom's South Sea from Rhemuth to Bermagne would not be feasible. That is what ships are for.  and in Evie's modern world the Deryni still use airplanes.  ;)



In that case, how does Thorne Hagen get to Council meetings if he is home in Autun when one is suddenly called? Portal to Bremagne and then hijack the world's fastest ship in order to reach Gwynedd's shore so he can Portal the rest of the way? And does Sofiana do this too? Both Autun and Andalon are across the Southern Sea from the nearest coast of Gwynedd, not to mention that Beldour appears to be closer to Lendour than Lendour is to Autun. The Anvillers? Also across the sea.

In Evie's modern Gwynedd Deryni still use airplanes because in order to go from one Portal to another, one needs to know the coordinates for both, unless someone else is portaling you there. Even if there was no limit to the distance one could jump, if I don't know the coordinates to any Portal location in NYC, I would still need a more mundane way to get there. And if I needed to take an entire entourage, going by Portal would be impractical, especially if there were more humans than Deryni. Also a good reason why Deryni might still prefer to take a ship even if they happen to know a Portal location overseas. Even traveling with heavy luggage might be easier using conventional transportation unless time is of the essence. 

(In the opening chapters of the BoP sequel that may or may not ever get finished, I have some travelers crossing from Camberia to distant lands by means of a Portal network, so that very first jump at least would have to cross ocean because there isn't a land bridge from Camberia to the next continent over, any more than there is any land bridge from our world's Australia to Asia.)
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

DesertRose

I think, broadly, the problem with crossing oceans via Portal is the general size of an ocean.  I think you can Portal across smaller bodies of water; assuming a distance limit of ~300 miles, you could go (across the Mediterranean) from Alexandria, Egypt, to Athens, Greece, with a "Portal layover" in Crete.

And of course, that assumes the existence of safe, usable Portals at all three locations and Deryni who know the coordinates of same.

So the Balance of Power sequel manages it by island-hopping, Deryni-style.  ;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Laurna

I accept your challenge to portal across oceans. All things may be possible. Though I am still leery of such portal jumps.

Now I challenge Bywn's three hundred miles.  Rhemuth to Coroth castle is just over 300 miles. Admittedly KK has not put a portal there yet in cannon, but we know that it will exist soon enough and be frequently used.  Also Rhemuth to Bellymar is well over 300 miles, though admittedly the McLain Family could use Culdi Castle as a stop over.

As Evie states. The CC members use the portal jump from their homes and go directly to the CC chamber in the Kheldour mountains that look north over the Northern Sea. I always thought of them going from R'Kassi and Andilion where the Southern Sea is not a barrier. but if a CC member is in Autun or Bermagne then they must jump past the Sea and more than 600miles. Do they use an interim portal or can they make a direct jump?
Is the only limit knowing where you are going and being assured that it is not trapped when you get there.
May your horses have wings and fly!

Evie

Quote from: Laurna on January 07, 2022, 12:26:26 AM

Is the only limit knowing where you are going and being assured that it is not trapped when you get there.

To the best of my recollection, this is the only limit that is expressly stated in canon. Other theories such as distance limits are inferred based on knowing that there is an energy cost for portal jumps, and therefore only a limited number can be made in a short period of time without tiring. Therefore it is sensible to extrapolate from those known factors that longer than average distance could be an issue that increases one's energy cost to the point that eventually a jump becomes unwise or undoable. But that range is never specifically stated, and IMO with very good reason. If an author explicitly states "You can travel no more than X in one jump," but then ends up later writing a story in which it is vital to make a >X jump in order for the plot to work, then she's hamstrung by too rigid a limit. (Or she ignores the limit and hopes no one ever spots the discrepancy, but in this crowd  how likely is that? 😅)
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Bynw


Known canon limitations. Both destination and origin portals must be known and within "range". But range is never really defined in this case but it doesn't seem to be the short/long range of a jump it's more of the Deryni sensing range.

For jumps we know that longer jumps take more energy to do than shorter jumps. I just skimmed over Deryni Magic and it really didn't have any more insight than that.

So this was of course to add some real word physics into the mix to explain range limitations. And of course what happens if they are exceeded. If you exceed distance from origin to destination you will have the momentum change caused by the planetary rotation. You could stumble at the destination at least or end up flying into a nearby wall if one is close and being bug splatter.

I briefly mentioned elevation changes too. Which are another limiting factor. Going from a low elevation to a high elevation caused a change in temperature. In extreme cases, enough to freeze you solid. And vise versa going from a high elevation to a lower one. You can end up boiling yourself alive. (If I'm remembering it correctly, otherwise it would be the opposite way around. I'll try to find the reference material.)

Thus the need of more Portal locations for longer distances/elevations. And why it's normally not possible to Portal across the ocean.

Are there any canon ways around it? Yes. And they don't use that horrible fantasy cliche of "it's magic" with out any explanation. Magic has rules that have to be followed. And we know, at least from Deryni Magic, that the magic practiced by the Deryni is more like the Force of Star Wars than the Harry Potter kind of magic. It's not reality bending D&D magic. The term "psionics" best describes what Deryni magic is and how it works.

So how to break the limitations and still stay within canon and the physics reality check?

First of all it takes 2 Portals. Origin and Destination. We know from canon that the older and/or more used Portals are "stronger" than younger or less used Portals. We know that the Portal itself is a matrix of energy that is tapped by the act of using it. These are our keys for longer and more dangerous jumps.

It's better to have the older portal at your Destination. The Portal itself can provide some of the excess energy that would be needed to compensate for the change in momentum and/or elevation to prevent the operator from being boiled alive bug splat. Could the operator do that themselves? Possibly in some cases. But in others the cost in energy may cause blood vessels to burst in the brain, a coma, or death anyway. So it's best not to do that unless again you are borrowing energy for the jump from something that has more energy to give. 


President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
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DoctorM

Evie raises a good point. Thorne Hagen lives in Autun. How does he get to a Council meeting in the Rhendalls without a complicated system of Portals-plus-ships-and-horses? Are Deryni from the Forcinn kept in the south without sailing or going round through Orsal country by land?