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The Cardounet Game

Started by Shiral, September 05, 2021, 02:11:53 PM

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DerynifanK

I think you meant trews. And did you mean braes as I don't see medieval guys with bras. I certainly can see the value of wearing leather between your skin and the horse rather than thinner fabrin which would not provide much protection.  But then what did the ladies wear under their gowns to provide similar protection when riding astride?
"Thanks be to God there are still, as there always have been and always will be, more good men than evil in this world, and their cause will prevail." Brother Cadfael's Penance

Jerusha

#16
My dear lady, I think you meant "braies."   ;)

(Though it took me a while to find out how to spell them properly, so don't feel bad!)
From ghoulies and ghosties and long-leggity beasties and things that go bump in the night...good Lord deliver us!

 -- Old English Litany

Shiral

Yeah....it was a few centuries too early for Bras.   ;)
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

revanne

It's an interesting point about women riding. I can't remember any mention of whether women rode side saddle or astride. 
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

Laurna

#19
Thank you for the correction suggestions for the proper under garments. My bad!  ;)
In medieval times, women rode astride, they usually kept their linen kirtle dress between themselves and the horse. If they were of any wealth at all, they would have a drape of fabric like a blanket over the saddles to sit on. However, most often, women rode behind the man on a small cushion( pillion) tied behind the saddle. They could ride astride or with their legs to one side because they did not have their feet in stirrups. They held on to the rider before them, usually going no faster than a walk.
Side saddle was documented when Princess Anne of Bohemia  when she rode by herself across Europe to meet her betrothed King Richard II  in 1382.  Her saddle was a chair sitting sideways with a foot rest on one side. She wanted to maintain her innocents. The introduction of the second pummel to wrapr your skirt and leg over to ride more forward while still riding astride was developed in 1830. Much much later.
May your horses have wings and fly!

DoctorM

Quote from: revanne on September 07, 2021, 03:46:07 PM
It's an interesting point about women riding. I can't remember any mention of whether women rode side saddle or astride.

I halfway recall that side-saddle was a late development and that medieval women often rode astride. Now I have to go look for that and see whether my memory is holding up.

DoctorM

Quote from: Laurna on September 07, 2021, 05:11:56 PM
Thank you for the correction suggestions for the proper under garments. My bad!  ;)
In medieval times, women rode astride, they usually kept their linen kirtle dress between themselves and the horse. If they were of any wealth at all, they would have a drape of fabric like a blanket over the saddles to sit on. However, most often, women rode behind the man on a small cushion( pillion) tied behind the saddle. They could ride astride or with their legs to one side because they did not have their feet in stirrups. They held on to the rider before them, usually going no faster than a walk. ]

Excellent!


Demercia

That is fascinating Laurna.  I knew about Anne of Bohemia but not how very late the side saddle as we know it was.  So, for instance, someone like Queen Elizabeth 1 of England would probably have ridden astride??

The light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

revanne

Totally off topic but my birthday present from my son last year was a helmet so I could ride pillion on his motor bike - we went rather faster than a walk!
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

drakensis

Quote from: Demercia on September 08, 2021, 01:54:52 AM
That is fascinating Laurna.  I knew about Anne of Bohemia but not how very late the side saddle as we know it was.  So, for instance, someone like Queen Elizabeth 1 of England would probably have ridden astride??
Well, she was after Anne of Bohemia's time, so side-saddle would have been known of by then.

Evie

Quote from: Demercia on September 08, 2021, 01:54:52 AM
That is fascinating Laurna.  I knew about Anne of Bohemia but not how very late the side saddle as we know it was.  So, for instance, someone like Queen Elizabeth 1 of England would probably have ridden astride??

Just saw this thread. The portraits I've seen of Elizabeth I on horseback appear to show her riding sidesaddle.  Eleanor of Aquitaine lived in an age before sidesaddles, though, and famously rode off on Crusade with her first husband (one of the Louis kings in France) showing off flashes of red thigh-high leather boots she wore for leg protection, which was considered rather scandalous, but it's Eleanor we're talking about, so that was nothing new for her.   ;D  I think sometimes braies and/or trews may have worn under the long skirts too while riding, even though at least trews weren't normally worn under skirts, just for added protection. Though finding any documentation of that is pretty much impossible, as there aren't a lot of portraits of horse-riding medieval women with their skirts lifted enough to display what their legs may or may not have been covered by. In the few SCA equestrian activities that I participated in, though, that's how ladies protected their legs and feminine bits while riding astride in long skirts.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Laurna

 "flashes of red thigh-high leather boots she wore for leg protection, which was considered rather scandalous,"

Evie, I love that. For a women it is easier to have your leg protected in leather from the foot up instead of the hip down. It makes me think that men might have been wearing these types of boots before or during her time, and she adapted the style for herself.
May your horses have wings and fly!

LauraS

I remember reading somewhere that side saddles came to England with the wife of Richard II, Anne of Bohemia, in the late 14th century. Before that, English noblewomen rode astride. Of course, side saddles are far more dangerous and were the cause of many women's deaths over the centuries.

Nezz

Quote from: LauraS on January 12, 2022, 10:41:33 PM
Of course, side saddles are far more dangerous and were the cause of many women's deaths over the centuries.

Heck, how could they not be? Just watching someone ride a horse side saddle makes me feel like I'm about to fall off and I'm not even on the dang horse! :)
Now is life, and life is always better.
-Wolfself

Laurna

It looks like we have hijacked Shiral's story: Sorry Shiral, I love your story.
My sister has ridden Side saddle for decades. When her show jumping horse got too old to do the big jumps, she began competing in hunter/jumpers 2.5 foot fences in side saddle. The modern side saddle has two pummels. you wrap your  right knee over the top pummel and a jumping horn that you press your left thigh up into. My sister stats that with the jumping horn it is virtually impossible to fall off as long as your left foot is in the stirrup. She says the one danger is that if the horse goes down you are going down too because you literally can not get out of the saddle fast enough.
The evolution of side saddle riding was 1382 Anne of Bohemia sat sideways on a horse on a box chair saddle. This style is for being led at a walk.
Kathrine de Medici around 1550's developed the upper riding pommel on a saddle where she could wrap her right leg over the pummel, there by sitting facing forward and could control her own horse at a trot or canter. From all the paintings and drawings of Queen Elizabeth the I, this is they way she is riding.
Then in 1830's the jumping horn or second pummel was developed at this allowed women the freedom to join fox hunts and ride as well as the men over obstacles.
The danger of riding in modern side saddle with the history costumes is that the volume of skirts can get caught on the pummels. So you must have a groomsmen or a horse that will stand perfectly still while dismounting.
May your horses have wings and fly!