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Meraude

Started by Wren, July 20, 2021, 02:39:45 PM

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tmcd

"Nigel is Kelson's heir apparent"

Nitpick: Nigel is Kelson's heir presumptive. An heir apparent is an heir who can be displaced from their heirdom only by their own death. For example, Kelson was Brion's heir apparent.

X being the heir presumptive to Y means that, if X dies right now, Y will inherit, but if X survives, someone else could muscle into line in front of Y. Nigel is Kelson's heir presumptive, because Kelson's son (if lawfully begotten of his body, I presume) would bump Nigel down a step in the queue. And any more sons of Kelson, or other descendants of Kelson, would bump Nigel and his descendants even further down and down.


LauraS

An heir apparent cannot be displaced by the birth of anyone else, but only by their own death. An heir presumptive can be displaced if the monarch has a direct heir.  In the UK in the 20th century, two heirs presumptive became monarch:

Edward VIII became King on the death of his father, George V, as his eldest legitimate son. As he was not married, his heir presumptive was his next younger brother, Prince Albert, Duke of York. When EVIII abdicated, his brother became King George VI (he chose is last baptismal name to reign under, to show continuity with his father George V.)  George VI had only daughters, and at that time, males took preference over females. The future Elizabeth II could have been displaced at any time up to her accession had her parents produced a son - she was only ever "heir presumptive" to her father. The law was changed in 2015 for those born after 2013, so now Princess Charlotte is ahead of younger brother Prince Louis instead of behind him. Prince William is heir apparent, and Prince George is HIS heir apparent, as they can only be displaced by their own deaths.

Cory

I was thinking of how Meraude must have been the backbone of support for Rory & Payne when Nigel was still weak and Connell was under arrest. There's not a lot of discussion of how the younger brothers reacted, though they always seemed to like Kelson better.

I don't think Nigel and Meraude were bad parents at all, given the affection everyone has for them, simply that their eldest son just turned out not to be like them. After all, Connell thinks about how he used his powers to 'persuade' the serving girls into sex, and that means inability to say 'no,' which means rape, as much as Ithel's rape of Princess Janniver.

That's not something he'd have ever learned from his parents. One wonder who his friends were at court or during his service as a page and squire. What crowd did he run with? And did his parents separate him from them hoping to change him?

Evie

Quote from: Cory on May 16, 2023, 01:14:02 PMI was thinking of how Meraude must have been the backbone of support for Rory & Payne when Nigel was still weak and Connell was under arrest. There's not a lot of discussion of how the younger brothers reacted, though they always seemed to like Kelson better.

I don't think Nigel and Meraude were bad parents at all, given the affection everyone has for them, simply that their eldest son just turned out not to be like them. After all, Connell thinks about how he used his powers to 'persuade' the serving girls into sex, and that means inability to say 'no,' which means rape, as much as Ithel's rape of Princess Janniver.

That's not something he'd have ever learned from his parents. One wonder who his friends were at court or during his service as a page and squire. What crowd did he run with? And did his parents separate him from them hoping to change him?

Yes, this really caught my attention the last time I read that trilogy. What really made me wonder was that, IIRC, he also didn't limit his mental/sexual tampering (or as you very correctly say, rapes) to the serving staff. I think if Conall had been dallying with the occasional chambermaid or kitchen girl, but it appeared to be consensual, that wouldn't have raised too many eyebrows in a medieval court. (The thought of whether the consent was actual or whether the girl might have felt coerced due to the rank differential might not have been considered.) However, I'm pretty sure Nigel and Meraude would have both been deeply disturbed if they knew Conall was deliberately overriding any girl's free will, and would have done their best to put a stop to that. And since IIRC the books say that he did the same thing to a few ladies of the court (i.e. daughters of other courtiers, with potentially severe dynastic implications if any of them turned up pregnant as a result), I think they would have been utterly horrified if they knew he was in any sort of sexual relationship, consensual or not, with any nobleman's daughter, and a marriage would have been very hastily arranged if the young lady had consented to the matter. If she hadn't...I think Kelson might have needed to stand in line behind Nigel when it came to administering some swift consequences!

I do wonder if Conall ended up fathering other babies that he never knew about, and how horrific that would be for any young woman who found herself pregnant with no memory of how she ended up that way, and no reason she could give to her family or anyone else who might ask. A Deryni sifting through her blocked memories could figure out what happened, but first they would need to have a reason to go poking into her memories. And for Conall's victims, I imagine "Oh, I must have been raped by someone with Deryni powers! Maybe another Deryni can help me get to the bottom of this mystery" would be the very last consideration on their mind.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Shiral

I agree that Nigel and Meraude would have been absolutely appalled to know that Conall used Deryni coercion on any girl at court as would Kelson. Not only would they have sympathy for the young women involved, and would realize the dynastic complications had a courtier's daughter been impregnated by Conall out of wedlock, but the mental coercion involved would have reflected VERY badly on the Haldanes and on the Deryni in the kingdom. Kelson, Alaric, Duncan, Dhugal and Arilan in particular have worked VERY hard to restore honor to being Deryni in Gwynedd, but here comes Conall, who already has every advantage on his side, using his powers to seduce girls and women. And yes, Conall's behavior does make him a rapist, apparently many times over. I think his former mistress Vanissa, Conalline Amelia's mother definitely falls into that cateogry. That he gives her a nice little cottage to live in and is prepared to provide for both Vanissa and their daughter and treated her tolerably well barely covers the situation. She was after all his cover for meeting Tiercel, who seemed to be losing most of his respect for Conall, judging by their conversation in the prologue of Quest for Saint Camber. Conall clearly had no problems altering her memory to suit himself, and very little regard for Vanissa herself when Conall casually offers her to Tiercel. 

I do not say I agree with the philosophy, but historically speaking, "Droight de Seigneur" was heavily weighted in the favor of privileged young men like Conall. His rank would have meant that people who knew might have been prepared to look the other way, if he had done his duty by his out of wedlock children and their mothers. Kelson definitely wouldn't have appreciated having Conall's abuse of his illegitimate power made public knowledge. It would have badly offset all Kelson's efforts to undo centuries of anti-Deryni prejudice in Gwynedd. And it wouldn't have done his relationship with the Church any good, either.

Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

Cory

Covering over her son's misuse of Vanessa would possibly be another reason for Meraude to become so involved in Connaline's life too.

I don't think it was her main reason but until Shiral's post, I hadn't thought of the horrible implications if a Haldane prince is using the rumored Haldane powers to coerce ladies of the court into sexual relationships. Yet another black mark to Connal and a peak into what his reign might have been like.

revanne

I don't deny that Conall turns into a really unpleasant character but I think there are reasons which help to explain, though not justify, why he turned out the way he did. Reasons which don't apply to Payne or Rory.

He seems to be eaten up with jealousy for Kelson, and I can see why. As they both reach the cusp of manhood Brion dies, with all that follows and all of Nigel's attention is taken up with defending his King. At the same time Jehana takes herself off in a hissy fit - or crisis of conscience - and Meraude has to take on the running of the Palace.  Not only does Kelson get the crown, with all the honour that entails, not to mention magical powers,  but he gets Conall's parents' attention too. Just as things settle down up turns this uncouth borderer who turns out to be the King's blood- brother and Conall is side-lined again. 

Yes Conall is thoroughly unpleasant but I think Kelson also mishandled him, being too inexperienced to see what starts out as bratty  behaviour as masking real unhappiness. 

Tiercel might not like Conall but he is as bad, using others purely for his own ends.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

Cory

It's funny in a Meraude thread that we all (including me) reverted to talk about her kids because all we've seen of her is as a mother--even when we get her actions in bringing her granddaughter to court, it's family-oriented. It's not bad to be that way--I'm a mother of four!--but it would be fun to see if there's another side of her too.

OTOH, considering she keeps having kids, maybe she loves being a mother and sees that as her primary identity. Richenda, for example, would see mother as part of her, but also a scholar, and magic practitioner....though, like Meraude, she would share the duties of running a household.


ReikiDeryni

With Meraude being Nigel's wife and Brion's sister-in-law, Kelson would have been exposed to her good/bad from infancy. Being who she was and where she came from before being either of those would have helped temper and prepare her for what came later, you add to it what seems to be a strong and moral compass what she did isn't at all too surprising. As for Connell his action are mostly on him, he knew it was wrong and still did it DESPITE his parent's upbringing.

DoctorM

Quote from: Cory on May 16, 2023, 03:29:43 PMCovering over her son's misuse of Vanessa would possibly be another reason for Meraude to become so involved in Connaline's life too.

I don't think it was her main reason but until Shiral's post, I hadn't thought of the horrible implications if a Haldane prince is using the rumored Haldane powers to coerce ladies of the court into sexual relationships. Yet another black mark to Connal and a peak into what his reign might have been like.

Though I suspect that it wasn't uncommon in the Eleven Kingdoms for Deryni to use their abilities for such ends-- and very likely a great many people who were unknowingly Deryni were always amazed at how lucky they were at seductions.