Heraldry

[Shiral]

Drawing parallels between our world's geography and that of the  XI Kingdoms is...a little problematic, at least when you think in terms of climate and topography. If you think of Gwynedd as a parallel Britain, there is no real analagous "Europe" that  accounts for the great climate change between the cold/rainy/snowy English climate and the heat and dryness of R'Kassi, the Anvil of the Lord, which is presumably a parallel Arabian Peninsula. The Southern Sea between Gwynedd and the Forcinn is not terribly wide at the eastern end where it becomes an estuary near the Corwyn/Torenth Southern Border.

However, I think of Cassan and Kheldour as parallels for Scotland with corresponding colder, wetter climates. Meara I think of as a kind of cultural blend of Scotland and Wales. The Welsh influence would be more pronounced further South in Howicce and Llannedd. But I don't really have much of an impression of Howicce and Llannedd since very little action in the books has actually taken place, there. Across the Southern Sea, I think of Bremagne as a kind of blend of France and Spain. French language, but in religious terms, more like Spain. Perhaps the present King of Bremagne is a more forward thinking monarch in terms of not persecuting Deryni, but in the books, Jehana takes her childhood lessons that Deryni are evil very much to heart.

I think of the Forcinn States between Bremange and Tralia as kind of a patch work of France, if France had been many small kingdoms and principalities rather than one larger one. Perhaps Tralia would be kind of an amalgam of France Italy and Greece.  Torenth clearly is a stand-in for Eastern Europe, the most identifiable ones being Hungary, Germany (Maybe Poland) and Ukraine. (I picture the Duchy of Arjenol as having a very Ukrainian culture.)

The Eastern and Southern Forcinn would be similar to our Middle East and Arabian/African cultures. But Katherine might well dispute my impressions
Melissa

[DoctorM]

Yes--- the Eleven Kingdoms aren't easily mapped on to Europe. I've always assigned cultures and languages to them based on odds and ends (Fianna is wine country, and so a bit Provencal; the Connait is the far west of Ireland). It's easy to assign Torenth and its associated states as eastern Europe/Russia, and to assign things eastwards from there as steppe culture. I suppose the shape of the Bremagni coastline makes me think of NW France and Brittany, and the idea of lots of small city-states in the Forcinn makes me think of Italy (or the Low Countries, a bit). The Anvil of the Lord I always see as something like the Sahara, but we've no sense of how big it is or what lies beyond it to the south. I've always thought of it as part of a quasi-Islamic world, amirates and kingdoms that probe into Bremagne and Autun sometimes, but also trade with them.

I like the wide array of cultures in the XI. Kingdoms, though it is a problem to see them in what could be a fairly small space. And I like it that KK has left room to fill up the blanks in our knowledge.

[Kareina]

Laurna---

I think I've always thought of the Eleven Kingdoms as filling up the space of Western Europe, with the Southern Sea standing in for both the Channel and the Mediterranean.

Gee, you see the Eleven Kingdoms as much bigger than I always have.  Early on I heard (read?) something that drew a parallel between Gwynned and our Wales, so I just assumed when looking at the maps in the books (back in the 1980's, when first I read them) that the southern sea was the equivalent of the Bristol Channel, and it never occurred to me to re-consider that assumption till this conversation.

[revanne]

Just putting in my tuppence worth.

I have always imagined Bremagne as a sort of equivalent to France/Spain. The Anvil of the Lord and R'Khassi having northern African similarities, and Torenth eastern  Europe/ Russia. Politically the host of smaller states is an amalgam of the low countries and pre-unification Italy.

Within the eleven  kingdoms, Kheldour and Cassan seem Scottish, whereas I have always thought of Meara as Irish, largely because of the political issues there bearing  in mind that much of the first half of my life had the Troubles as an ever present  backdrop. So I may well have made an  unwarranted assumption  there.

Howicce and Llannedd seem Welsh,  purely because of the name of the latter, although politically the truer analogy to Wales in real world history  would probably  be Mooryn.

Gwynedd seems to me from KK's descriptions to have more of the climate of northern France, which can be cold, and wet and certainly the summers seem to be warmer than used to be usual in Britain. So perhaps we need to imagine the latitude as shifting 10 degrees or so south, especially since without the gulf stream the climate of Britain in real world latitude should be more akin to that of Labrador. ( Keep it coming across the pond, folks).

[DoctorM]

One day, Revanne, I must learn more medieval Irish history, say from c. 1100 to c. 1500. So much happening there-- Normans and Scots both showing up (Robt. the Bruce's younger brother decided that if Bob could be a king, so could he, and went off to Ireland to try), and Connaught and the West always seemed mysterious and intriguing to me.

[revanne]

One day, Revanne, I must learn more medieval Irish history, say from c. 1100 to c. 1500. So much happening there-- Normans and Scots both showing up (Robt. the Bruce's younger brother decided that if Bob could be a king, so could he, and went off to Ireland to try), and Connaught and the West always seemed mysterious and intriguing to me.

Having read some from the Scots point of view I wonder if in fact Robert sent his younger brother off to Ireland to get him out of the way. Ambitious siblings/heirs are always better elsewhere and Edward Bruce was responsible for triggering the English invasion which led to Bannockburn which could so easily had ended in disaster for the Scots. He was supposed to be laying siege to Stirling castle, admittedly a thankless task, got bored and came to terms with Sir Philip Mowbray the equally bored castellan, that the Castle would be surrendered if it wasn't relieved by the following midsummer. nothing like inviting trouble, which duly came.

[DoctorM]

Am I wrong in thinking that the map of the XI. Kingdoms has changed over the years? The map we have here (derived from an RPG?) just feels...somehow...different from the maps in the books back in the early 80s? Am I just looking back too much into the past or have things slightly changed? 

[drakensis]

I take the earlier maps, including those in the codex, to be in-universe maps with all the limits of medieval cartography.

By that standard they're rather good.

[DoctorM]

I do love medieval cartography. When I used to teach, I'd apologize in advance to my classes on how badly I did sketch maps on the chalkboard...and then point out that I was still doing at least as well as medieval mapmakers. (And it is fun to draw a medieval T-map of the known world)