• Welcome to The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz.


Latest Shout



Today at 12:33:14 PM
I made the Zoom Archive easier to find
  • Total Posts: 27,943
  • Total Topics: 2,748
  • Online today: 55
  • Online ever: 930
  • (January 20, 2020, 11:58:07 AM)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 27
Total: 27
Facebook External hit (4)
Welcome to The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz. Please login.

June 20, 2024, 10:57:15 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Deryni ganging up

Started by whitelaughter, April 04, 2019, 07:32:33 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.


Something that has been bugging me ever since I read High Deryni, and I've finally thought to ask here:

While arguing over the rights of the half-Deryni, one of the Camberian Council members says that Deryni powers don't stack, and that is why larger numbers of Deryni haven't just been able to auto-defeat smaller numbers. This statement doesn't seem to surprise any of the others.

Then it is announced that Wencit is planning to cheat in the mass duel with Kelson, by bringing another 4 combatants in.

Surely if the first statement is correct, what he was planning was pointless? And if it is correct, how? Without magic, numbers tells every time.


I think what Wencit might have originally planned was to challenge Kelson to a Duel Arcane, let Kelson believe it would be one-on-one, but then Wencit would show up with three other Deryni, and given that Wencit's "team" were Torenthi and thus had far more access to training than pretty much anyone in Gwynedd and particularly Kelson, who had activated Haldane powers but possibly not all the knowledge he'd need to use them effectively, Wencit and his allies could probably have made quick work of our dear young Haldane.

Four against one is not fun odds for the "one," and add to that the fact that the four would be better trained than Kelson--well, Kelson would have been up the proverbial creek if he hadn't been warned about Wencit's deceit in time to recruit a few more team members to accompany Kelson.

I don't have my books handy, and of the original trilogy, I have only Deryni Rising on my Kindle app, so perhaps someone who has their books readily to hand can check.  @whitelaughter to make it easier, could you provide a citation (page number would be great) for the assertion from the Camberian Council and Wencit's plan to cheat?

Edited because I realized I didn't finish a sentence.  I plead sleepiness and pain meds.  ;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)


I believe the initial passage in question is this one:

Quote"Oh, half-breeds be hanged! Maybe they're not. How could they be, and still be able to heal? The ancient records tell us little about the gifts of healing, but we do know that healing was one of the most difficult of all the Deryni powers to master, that it required great concentration and energy to control. If Morgan and McLain can do this, I think we must either accept the possibility that they are somehow full Deryni, that there is something in their makeup which we have not yet discovered, or else we must reconsider our whole understanding of what it means to be Deryni.
"Perhaps Deryniness isn't a cumulative thing at all. Perhaps you're either Deryni or you're not, and nothing in between. We know that powers themselves aren't cumulative between two people, other than to bring one weakened or untrained individual up to his full potential. If this were not the case, Deryni could band together and the larger, stronger groups defeat the smaller ones every time.

"But. no. We know, at least, that battle doesn't work that way. We keep our duels on a one-to-one basis, and we forbid more than one individual to challenge at a time, and the custom is couched in legend-but why was it begun this way? Perhaps because of the very fact that the powers aren't additive.

"Perhaps inheritance is governed on much the same principle. Other things are inherited in full from one parent or the other. Why not Deryniness?"
The speaker is Tiercel, in chapter 7. In my copy, the page reference is 74-75.

What his basis is for this belief is unclear and I honestly don't see how numbers wouldn't be a factor.

I don't recall if Wencit's exact plan is ever laid out, explaining what his false Council members would have done.

It's also unclear how the duel should have played out under formal rules, whether the four on each side would have acted in unison or if it would have broken into four individual duels. In the latter case, since Wencit had no idea Kelson had a fourth Deryni available he could reasonably have expected an easy victory against Kelson's fourth member, leaving one of his team free and rested to take on a exhausted victor if another of Kelson's team was victorious.


 Drakensis thank you for the page number and quote.
QuoteWe know that powers themselves aren't cumulative between two people

I was driving home looking at street lights and I thought of an analogy.

Think of each person's ability to use magic as the strength of a wattage in a light bulb. The maximum watts of light each person can put forth is both inheritable and trained. Let us say, most average Deryni would shine like a 100watt bulb. Some are not so welled trained so they are at 60 watts and some just barely have the abilities at 25 watts. But then there are the masters who shine at 250 watts.

For this analogy, let us say, a single person's magic is set at the brightness of their light bulb. Two 100 watt bulbs light up the room better than one, but when both are ON they can not give off the same intensity of light as a 200 watt bulb. If ten 100watt people all turned on, there will be an increase of light throughout the room, but that light will never become "Cumulative or additive" to each other to equal one 1000watt flood light.  You can not turn ten 100watt lights into a 1000 watt brightness. Not in a single spot. (Dear physic majors, please forgive me if my physics of light is faulty. Just trying to find something in our world that can relate to magic.)

Now each person also has a battery of energy. This dictates "How Long" they can keep their light shining before they have to recharge(sleep). Deryni very easily share their energy from person to person.  So one 250 watt person can stay "ON" for a very long time if they use up other peoples energy/batteries.
Using other peoples energy does not make this 250 watt light into a 1000watt light bulb. It simply keeps him lighted for longer amounts of time.

I hope I have not lost everyone.

The dual Arcane was supposed to be one-on-one to test the strength and durability of each person's magic. More people on Wencit's side add to more spells being cast at one time, not to a greater intensity of just one spell.   It also gives Wencit more energy to pull from to keep from falling into fatigue. Therefore, he can cast the higher level spells he has trained to use,  for longer periods of time. If two duelists have matched intensity of magic than the person who can keep casting the longest is the person who wins.

We may never know what Wencit's true plans had been,  nor how that dual would have played out. but I think we would have lost many players on both sides before it was done. That would have been very hard to read.
May your horses have wings and fly!


Although the analogy of the light bulbs is good, it might be better to think of it in the terms of an electrical circuit.

Lets say you have 2 batterys that are 6volts each and produce 1amp of current and each battery lasts an hour. This is all independently of course.

You can connect the 2 batterys together in series. This produces 12volts at 1amp for 1 hour.

Or if you connect the 2 batterys together in parallel. This then would produce 6volts at 2amps for 2 hours.

This is really simplified and not 100% exact but you get the idea anyway. Of how minds might be reacting. We see this in the Deryni when multiple Deryni operate together or even use humans as well.

It appears that the operate in parallel. The last longer and have more punch.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com


Quote from: Bynw on April 05, 2019, 07:58:43 AM

It appears that the operate in parallel. The last longer and have more punch.

Actually the more I think about it the more that might not actually be the case ... maybe it's something all together different.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com


In no way am I being critical of KK but I think this is an occasion when we see that the backstory was still developing. I cannot see how Wencit could "have had no idea that Kelson had another Deryni" assuming that that means Dennis Arilan, when unless my memory is playing me totally false Jamyl had been on the Council. Wencit would have had no reason to denounce Denis to the Gwyneddian Curia but he surely must have known he was Deryni.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)


Quote from: Bynw on April 05, 2019, 08:17:38 AM
Quote from: Bynw on April 05, 2019, 07:58:43 AM

It appears that the operate in parallel. The last longer and have more punch.

Actually the more I think about it the more that might not actually be the case ... maybe it's something all together different.

I will agree with the something all together different, than either of our analogies LOL.   What seemed to make since at 3am in the morning, no longer applies. HAHA.
May your horses have wings and fly!


thank everybody!

Don't supposed we'll ever know, but was good to get other people's thoughts on the matter.