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Stefan Coram's feud with Rhydon

Started by Lochiel, September 24, 2016, 12:07:31 PM

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Lochiel

Was the feud "made up" so that Stefan Coram would never have to face himself (which would be impossible)in his Rhydon disguise?  I checked the Codex for it, and came up with nothing, and of course it was never mentioned in High Deryni either, just that Stefan swore to never be in the same room as Rhydon.
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

DesertRose

Good question.

Or perhaps they really did hate each other, and Stefan killed the actual Rhydon to ensure that there would never be a problem with Stefan's ruse?

We know that the Council of that time prized ruthlessness, after all.  :grins diabolically:
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Evie

I don't think so. I'd have to reread the Childe Morgan series to be sure, but I think Rhydon (the original one) and Stefan are more clearly separate people in that,  but the CC is already starting to show concern about the company Rhydon is keeping.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Lochiel

Hi ladies,
Thanks for the speedy reply. I think Stefan said he was in a position to assume Rhydon's identity pg 337 HD "The real Rhydon of Eastmarch died of a heart seizure nearly six years ago. Fortunately , I was in a position to take his place."  Stefan Coram
I'm curious to know how that was possible and or happened? Stefan Coram seems to have very considerable powers, which is a mystery as well and his conspiracy to work against the CC (and restore it to its lofty goals IMO)
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

DesertRose

The real Rhydon having died of a "heart seizure" doesn't necessarily negate my (diabolical) theory above, as the sympathetic magic spell of reaching out and squeezing someone's heart until it stops is, per KK in Deryni Magic, very like a heart attack in its effect.  Rhydon's heart seizure might not have been entirely natural and spontaneous.

And yes, I wonder if Stefan had found something along the lines of the Protocols of Orin or some similar documents?
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Lochiel

I like your line of thought, and perhaps Stefan facilitated it, so that he could take his ID and take out Wencit eventually. 
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Lochiel

And also your speculation on Stefan acquiring some lost Protocols of Orin writings........
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

DesertRose

Stefan certainly seems to have been playing a long game with Wencit's end as his goal.  :)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Lochiel

And on another line of speculation, what did Wencit do to have Stefan despise him so much?
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Evie

#9
Quote from: Lochiel on September 25, 2016, 12:18:38 PM
And on another line of speculation, what did Wencit do to have Stefan despise him so much?

If Wencit's behavior in DC and HD was typical of his reign overall, then knowledge of his character and what might happen if his control over one of the largest and most influential kingdoms in the region were to extend over another such kingdom (which, had he succeeded, would have made him pretty much the ruler of a medieval superpower once Gwynedd was successfully subjugated and he had its resources under his command also) would have been sufficient motivation for Stefan to want to keep Wencit from ever reaching his goals. Wencit would not have cared in the least about maintaining, much less attempting to improve, the precarious balance in human/Deryni relations (already slanted against Deryni and working to overcome two centuries of ill will resulting from the first Festillic tyranny). He wanted power and control over what he saw as his birthright, no matter what it might take to achieve that. He would have simply imposed a second tyrannical reign, confirming in human minds that Deryni are all evil and not to be trusted, thus undermining all that the CC had worked behind the scenes for those two centuries to protect.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

drakensis

Well, it seems impossible for Coram to have replaced Rhydon before Rhydon was expelled from the Camberian Council in 1105 since they'd have had to have been in the same place. Since Rhydon was supporting an uprising against the Haldanes and Coram pretty evidently didn't, they would at least have been on different sides there but it may not have been personal.


Meanwhile, I have to admit I can understand the Torenthi royalty's differences with the Camberian Council. Firstly, the Camberians support the Haldanes as rulers of Gwynedd - which is a pretty fundamentally against Torenthi interest since under the Festils, Gwynedd was a vassal kingdom of Torenth - if one that had a lot of independence.

Secondly, the Council position themselves as governing all Deryni, anywhere. Which is a conflicting loyalty compared to loyalty to one's king. That's an issue in Gwynedd, as we've seen, somewhat salved by the fact that since most Deryni don't admit that that's what they are, that loyalty is hidden for the most part - and at the end of the day, the Deryni need the Council's support to have somewhere to turn if... let's be honest, when things go against them. And in most of the other known kingdoms it's much the same.

But in Torenth, that's very different. Being Deryni isn't a secret. In fact, your loyalty as a Deryni should be precisely the same as your loyalty as a Torenthi: to your feudal overlord and through them to the King, who's expected to be among the most accomplished Deryni among the House of Furstan (since otherwise an accident may have eliminated them before they reach the throne). So loyalty to the Council is a direct conflict with patriotism. Wencit, like most of his ancestors, has absolutely solid grounds to regard this it as bordering on treason. He doesn't need the Council, at best he tolerates it and gives mouth service to the idea that they maintain Deryni traditions - as long as they're doing it places where he isn't doing that.

Laurna

#11
Quote from: drakensis on September 26, 2016, 03:58:12 PM


But in Torenth, that's very different. Being Deryni isn't a secret. In fact, your loyalty as a Deryni should be precisely the same as your loyalty as a Torenthi: to your feudal overlord and through them to the King, who's expected to be among the most accomplished Deryni among the House of Furstan (since otherwise an accident may have eliminated them before they reach the throne).

I don't suppose you would be referring to the incident in which Wencint's two eldest brother's were involved in a
"magical experiment gone horribly wrong..." in which Crown Prince Nimur was killed and Prince Torval was driven mad.
One must be very careful when playing with powers beyond the imagining. A good example of what happens when one does not heed the advice of the wise Camberian Council. They had advised the brothers to stop, but no one listened.
May your horses have wings and fly!

drakensis

Not specifically referring to that. It's applicable in a way though. I could see the Torenthi, with their unbroken Deryni traditions, scorning warnings from a foreign group of Deryni, whose traditions have barely survived the centuries at all. They certainly wouldn't see the Council as equals.

tmcd

Quote from: DesertRose on September 24, 2016, 12:50:24 PMRhydon's heart seizure might not have been entirely natural and spontaneous.

I forget the work of fiction I read where a character said something like, "Died of a heart attack? Consider, though, that the heart stops in all deaths."

DoctorM

Quote from: DesertRose on September 24, 2016, 12:10:18 PMGood question.

Or perhaps they really did hate each other, and Stefan killed the actual Rhydon to ensure that there would never be a problem with Stefan's ruse?

We know that the Council of that time prized ruthlessness, after all.  :grins diabolically:


I've always been of the opinion that Coram poisoned Rhydon...