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The rest of the world

Started by whitelaughter, January 23, 2016, 10:55:31 PM

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tenworld

Besides the Jews what is missing from this world is Vikings and the influence they had including descendants who founded Russia and eventually conquered England by way of Normandy.  The geography does not provide the cauldron that brewed the Danish/Viking explorations and raids. The Deryni in a sense replace the Vikings just as they represent the persecuted jews, starting in the North some where and eventually spreading everywhere. (supposedly red hair is a marker of Viking legacy so Rhys Thuran could be part of that too).

I think KK did a good job of capturing essences of most of western history while still creating her own world.

drakensis

Well, Haldane is supposedly derived from Halbert the Dane and there does appear to have been an influx of northern influxes roundabout the time the Byzantum's lost their hold on Gwynedd, Torenth and the Southern Sea region.

Elkhound

Erm. . . there are references to "Norseland".

whitelaughter

Quote from: revanne on January 24, 2016, 07:38:57 AM
KK says somewhere (possibly in the foreward to Deryni tales) that she doesn't make much mention of any Jewish community in her books because Deryni play the part of the feared and demonised "other" played by medieval Jewry IIRC.

Am currently reading Winston Churchill's 'History of the English Speaking Peoples' and noted that when the Jews were expelled from England, an exception was made for some Jewish physicians (p228, Vol I) - so the Deryni Healers copy that situation. Don't know whether Katherine knew that or not, but if nothing else it seems that the actual histories of the era would be worth mining for gaming and fanfic.

DesertRose

Quote from: whitelaughter on November 11, 2017, 04:28:45 AM
Quote from: revanne on January 24, 2016, 07:38:57 AM
KK says somewhere (possibly in the foreward to Deryni tales) that she doesn't make much mention of any Jewish community in her books because Deryni play the part of the feared and demonised "other" played by medieval Jewry IIRC.

Am currently reading Winston Churchill's 'History of the English Speaking Peoples' and noted that when the Jews were expelled from England, an exception was made for some Jewish physicians (p228, Vol I) - so the Deryni Healers copy that situation. Don't know whether Katherine knew that or not, but if nothing else it seems that the actual histories of the era would be worth mining for gaming and fanfic.

I believe the mention about Judaism was in Deryni Magic, because she says that neither Christianity nor Islam would exist without Judaism, she referenced Bishop Arilan quoting Talmudic precedent in the hearing regarding the validity of Duncan's brief marriage to Maryse, the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Dhugal's birth, and thus Dhugal's right to be Duke of Cassan.

KK said that absence of proof is not proof of absence regarding the existence of actual Jewish people in the Eleven Kingdoms and that, when the time came to tell a story in which a character being Jewish was important or at least relevant, we would see Jewish folks.

As to whether KK knew about that part of WWII-era history, I would think she did.  Her master's degree is in medieval European history, IIRC, but Lammas Night is set in the UK in 1940, so I think she has probably studied that time period to get the historical facts as correct as possible to tell that story.

But she also does say, also in Magic, that, in a way, the Deryni are the Jews of Gwynedd in that they are an ethnic minority who can blend in at least to a degree with the majority, and also they collectively fail to see the writing on the wall until it's too late, in reference to the persecution of Deryni after the death of Cinhil.

Incidentally, whitelaughter, if you're on a WWII history kick and you haven't read Lammas Night, it's worth your time (or a revisit, if you have already read it), and my mother is reading a book called Troublesome Young Men by Lynne Olson, about the members of Parliament who forced Neville Chamberlain out of office as Prime Minister and replaced him with Churchill.  Mom says it's fascinating, and I trust her tastes.  ;D
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Bynw

There are Jews in a story in Deryni Tales.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

DesertRose

Quote from: Bynw on November 11, 2017, 08:04:43 AM
There are Jews in a story in Deryni Tales.

I think I have a copy of Deryni Tales, but I haven't read the whole thing yet.  Do you happen to remember whether the story featuring Jewish characters written by KK or by a fan?

Although, either way, Deryni Magic was published eleven years before Deryni Tales;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Bynw

It was a fan story. Unfortunately I am at work and all my paper back books are in storage so I wont be able to check who wrote it. But it is a good story I do remember reading it. Most of the stories in Deryni Tales are by fans. They are some of KK's favorites from past issues of Deryni Archives the 'zine.

President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

DesertRose

Quote from: Bynw on November 11, 2017, 09:55:30 AM
It was a fan story. Unfortunately I am at work and all my paper back books are in storage so I wont be able to check who wrote it. But it is a good story I do remember reading it. Most of the stories in Deryni Tales are by fans. They are some of KK's favorites from past issues of Deryni Archives the 'zine.

Yeah, I knew Deryni Tales was mostly fan stories, I think with a short story or two from Our Lady of the Stories.  ;)  I was just curious, and I don't have access to any of my physical books right now either, just the ones on my Kindle app, and Deryni Tales isn't one of the ones I have in Kindle format.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

drakensis

Arilan the Talmud Student was written  by Daniel Kohanski and Jay Barry Azneer

whitelaughter

Quote from: DesertRose on November 11, 2017, 05:15:53 AM
As to whether KK knew about that part of WWII-era history,
Oh sorry, it's not WWII - this is when Churchill is talking about the expulsion in the middle ages.

DesertRose

Quote from: whitelaughter on November 14, 2017, 08:07:49 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on November 11, 2017, 05:15:53 AM
As to whether KK knew about that part of WWII-era history,
Oh sorry, it's not WWII - this is when Churchill is talking about the expulsion in the middle ages.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.  I thought it had to do with Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler's Germany.  Mea culpa.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

whitelaughter

Quote from: DesertRose on November 14, 2017, 11:30:33 AM
Quote from: whitelaughter on November 14, 2017, 08:07:49 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on November 11, 2017, 05:15:53 AM
As to whether KK knew about that part of WWII-era history,
Oh sorry, it's not WWII - this is when Churchill is talking about the expulsion in the middle ages.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.  I thought it had to do with Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler's Germany.  Mea culpa.
Perfectly understandable, given the Jewish doctor who treated Hitler's mother and so forth! I guess the lesson is that the more things change, the more they stay the same...

DesertRose

"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

tenworld

Quote from: Elkhound on January 25, 2016, 09:11:34 AM
There seems nothing quite analogous to the Low Countries (Belgium & the Netherlands.)
This thread is fascinating. some random thoughts

The Frisians inhabited the low countries but disappeared from history much like the early Deryni, and
possibly were persecuted by catholics mainly the Franks, and forcibly integrated or killed off.

I also think there is a parallel between the spread of the Vikings and their red hair and the spread of the
Deryni gene from possibly a small group in the North (Denmark-Norway-Sweden).

I always associated R'Kassan horses with Arabians which would put AU Saudi Arabia somewhere here but
that doesn't fit well with map overlays being discussed.