Duncan's heraldry

[Evie]

OK, if this has been discussed on the Forum before, heck if I can find it, but now that I'm recreating Duncan's wardrobe (see the Duncan Action Figure thread in the OT section of the Forum), it's become a more pressing question for me.   What would Duncan's heraldic arms look like after 1125, once he abdicates his Ducal title in Dhugal's favor?

I know there's a description in one of the early books of the McLain coat of arms, with its blue and white colors, the red roses and the sleeping lion, though I don't recall the exact blazoning or whether the lion was a specific color or "proper" (i.e., a lion's natural coloring).  It seems like in the description I remember, there was some mark of cadency at the top of the heraldic device, because at the time Duncan was a ducal heir and not the Duke of Cassan yet.  So if I can find the exact blazon, it should be easy enough to re-create that device.  BUT...after Duncan steps down in favor of Dhugal, that's when things get murkier from me.  I can figure out the Ducal arms from a blazon, and also what an heir's arms would look like. But how in the world do you heraldically designate an abdication?  Is there some way?  He is still a nobleman, so therefore I would think he'd still be entitled to keep some form of the McLain arms, but I sure as heck don't know how it would be differenced from Dhugal's, who would (I assume) inherit the ducal arms when he inherits the title.  Or might Kelson have his Heraldic King of Arms create new arms for Duncan once he steps down as Duke of Cassan?

Le sigh.  

[tenworld]

how did people then keep all the heraldry current and so quickly?  Reminds me of the scene in Patton when he puts on the new insignia (***) and Karl Malden's character jokes about how resourceful the staff is.

[Evie]

I would imagine most people who would recognize the McLain arms on sight would be people who knew the Duke (at least by reputation) anyway, so if a new fellow shows up one day bearing those arms, and has a family resemblance, it's a safe bet that the former Duke has died and his eldest son has inherited the title.  (Or a chance, though more remote, that you've got an imposter posing as the Duke, though I imagine one would be easy enough to spot if in familiar territory!)  And if a man who used to have an heir's mark of cadency starts repainting his shield one day, that would signify to anyone who knew his former rank that he's had a change of status.  Such updates might take a little longer to reach the King of Arms and be formally recognized and recorded, but still, there's not so many noble houses in the Kingdom that this would take more than a few months at most, I can't imagine.  Especially since any new heir would have to swear fealty to the King of Gwynedd as his father did before him, and I don't see that being something you'd put off doing for years.  So there'd usually be quite sufficient time to change one's shield device, heraldic surcoats, etc. between wars, if one had a change of heraldic arms in the meantime.

"Quickly," of course, would not be the same thing as "instantly," unless there's some magical equivalent to the Internet Age. 

[Evie]

OK, I went back to look at what happened in the case of King Edward VIII when he abdicated the British throne and was made the Duke of Windsor instead, to see what happened to his heraldic arms (since obviously he couldn't keep on using the undifferenced Royal Arms!).  It looks like he reverted back to the mark of cadency of an eldest son of the monarch (which he was--the eldest son of the late monarch, that is, not the one reigning after him, who was his younger brother), only with an imperial crown added to the center point in his three-point mark of cadency.  So if we apply a similar rule to Duncan's case, perhaps he reverted back to the ducal arms he wore when he was Jared's heir, only this time with a little ducal coronet in that center point to indicate he was a former duke.  Duncan Michael, as Dhugal's heir, would be entitled to the original "eldest son and ducal heir" mark of cadency that doesn't have that little coronet on it.

Would that work, or does anyone see some hole in the logic that I'm not spotting?

[Jerusha]

I can't see why it wouldn't work.  Given that Duncan abdicated to assure the proper succession for Cassan (and to continue in his own true calling), he would certainly be entitled to proper heraldry and style. 

[Alkari]

Kelson could always grant him new arms, of course      Maybe something to recognise both his Cassan heritage and also status within the Church?  Perhaps a cross instead of a crown, or something like that?

[Elkhound]

If he were a diocesan bishop, he'd impale his personal arms with those of his see, but as he's a suffrigan, that wouldn't work.  In the total achievement, he'd surmount the shield with a mitre.

Wouldn't Dhugal, to show his dual role as Duke of Cassan and chief of Clan McArdry quarter the McLain and McArdry arms?  Then HIS son would put the lable over the quartered arms.

[Evie]

Quartered arms could be one way for him to show that, yes.  Although his eldest may or may not end up being the next Earl of Transha, given that KK has established that the tanistry of that clan isn't established by primogeniture but by clan choice of the most suitable heir to lead them, and she confirmed in chat a few months back that because of this, Dhugal might end up passing Cassan and Kierney on to his eldest son but Transha could end up going to a second or younger son.  So in the generation following Dhugal, if there are two separate heirs, then they'd each inherit separate arms again, I would imagine.

As for Kelson granting Duncan arms that recognize both his Cassan heritage and his status in the Church, Duncan could have a similar mark of cadency to what I suggested earlier, only instead of a Ducal coronet, he could have a bishop's mitre in the central point.  And as Elkhound mentioned, there would be a mitred crest in the total achievement anyway, though of course not on his fighting shield or the like unless the mitre were added as a charge on the device itself.

[Elkhound]

OK, I went back to look at what happened in the case of King Edward VIII when he abdicated the British throne and was made the Duke of Windsor instead, to see what happened to his heraldic arms (since obviously he couldn't keep on using the undifferenced Royal Arms!).  It looks like he reverted back to the mark of cadency of an eldest son of the monarch (which he was--the eldest son of the late monarch, that is, not the one reigning after him, who was his younger brother), only with an imperial crown added to the center point in his three-point mark of cadency.  So if we apply a similar rule to Duncan's case, perhaps he reverted back to the ducal arms he wore when he was Jared's heir, only this time with a little ducal coronet in that center point to indicate he was a former duke.  Duncan Michael, as Dhugal's heir, would be entitled to the original "eldest son and ducal heir" mark of cadency that doesn't have that little coronet on it.

Would that work, or does anyone see some hole in the logic that I'm not spotting?

A ducal coronet on the center point and a miter on each of the outer points.

[Evie]

Actually, KK said in last week's chat that Duncan would probably have been given a new coat of arms once he steps down, although his new arms might incorporate elements of his McLain arms to show his heritage, so I abandoned this original concept and came up with something similar-yet-different in the Duncan Action Figure thread.  (The set of arms crested with a mitre, if you're wondering which ones I'm referring to.)

[Arilan s Fan]

I would imagine that it would be the arms of the Sea impaled with the Maclean arms.  As a suffragan bishop, he is still attached to the sea and might still have the use of its arms in a way differentiated from the Dioscean head.  This might be an ecclesiatistical parallel of cadency.

You would assume that Arilan had a coat of arms when he was Auxiliary Bishop of Rhemuth.

[tenworld]

I would imagine that it would be the arms of the Sea .

do you mean like the giant squid on the Iron islands shields?  OK sorry for the crossover to Game of Thrones:)

[Elkhound]

I would imagine that it would be the arms of the Sea impaled with the Maclean arms.  As a suffragan bishop, he is still attached to the sea and might still have the use of its arms in a way differentiated from the Dioscean head.  This might be an ecclesiatistical parallel of cadency.

You would assume that Arilan had a coat of arms when he was Auxiliary Bishop of Rhemuth.

Of course, we can make up whatever rules we like for Gwynnedian heraldry, but in the primary world only the diocesan can marshall his personal arms with those of his see.