Women holding titles in their own right.

[Elkhound]

In Childe Morgan, we hear that Alyce could not hold her titles in her own right, although they could be passed on through her to her son.  But, in the Kelson books we met some ladies who held titles in their own right.  When was the law changed, or is it something that varies in different parts of the country?

[Braniana]

Which titles in particular did you notice in the Kelson books that were held directly by women?  I'll admit I can't think of any off-hand, but I might just not have noticed.

In our own world, inheritance does vary by country.  From my own interest in medieval England/Wales, I know that England inherited by primogeniture (the eldest legitimate son got everything), while Wales divided land equally among all acknowledged sons (regardless of legitmacy).  English heiresses (and their husbands) could inherit, but Welshwomen couldn't.  According to Sharon Kay Penman (a writer of this time, who's a good researcher), women and handicapped men couldn't inherit in Wales because of fears they couldn't defend their lands from attack.

This could offer an explanation for Alyce's situation.  Corwyn sat on the border with Torenth, and as the raiders in ITKS proved, it wasn't going to be too difficult for Torenthi raiders, or the Torenthi army, to try to invade there if they really wanted to.  In matters where physical strength, or military action were involved, men were going to be viewed as superior and preferable.  Perhaps this requirement was set up when Corwyn became part of Gwynedd, to keep the title in the original bloodline, rather than a man marrying the heiress for the title, she dies childless, he remarries and passes the title on to the son of his 2nd marriage (meaning no blood connection to the previous ruling line).  Also might be connected to the de Corwyn line being Deryni, something often useful to the Haldane kings.

And in the Deryni world, there was a mixture of inheritance styles: the Lowlands used primogeniture, and the border regions appear to have used a mixture of primogeniture and tanistry (where the most qualified candidate inherits).  Like how Dhugal automatically got the Earldom of Transha because he was thought to be Earl Cauley's son, but it wasn't as certain that he would get the chieftanship.  As Ciard said, Dhugal could have been chosen as the next chief even if he hadn't been a blood relative of Cauley.

[Elkhound]

I'll have to check, but the two that come to mind were Charissa and Catriona.  Catriona claimed to be Princess of Meara in her own right, and Charissa thought that her Furstan heritage made her lawful Ruling Queen of Gwynned. 

It also said that if anything happend to Morgan, Bryony would become dutchess in her own right. (This was before her brother was born, of course.)

There are a few others, but as I don't have my books here I can't be more specific.

[john]

In the UK, inheritance of titles depends on how the title was given.  Most titles are given under the inheritance by heirs male.  I believe there are a few English or UK titles thaat can pass through the female line. 

Charissa and Caitrin inherit titles (or claims to titles) that are royal.  Many royal lines (in our world) have allowed female succession (when the male line dies out) even if noble titles in the same land do not.

pax,
john

[Elkhound]

But what about Briony?  The text does say that before Kelric was born, if anything had happened to Alric she would have become Dutchess of Corwin in her own right.  But this contradicts what we see in Childe Morgan of how Corwin's succession laws worked. 

[BishopCullen]

Actually, there were quite a few.  Just off the top of my head, first up are the MacLain twins.  After the "accidental" death of their father, they were declared co-heiresses, so the titles of Kierney was theirs.  Only after one was murdered by the regents, did Iver McInnes marry the survivor and become Earl of Kierney.  Morag is another.  She was known as the Dowager Duchess of Arjenol, gaining her title after the death of her husband, Lionel.  She was also Duchess of Tolan.

[Elkhound]

Well, Morag was Torenthi;  Torenthi succession laws may have been different from Gwynnedd's.  (That may explain Charissa, as well; she may have just assumed that Gwynnedd was the same as Torenth.  She was arrogant enough consider a little basic legal research beneith her.) 

Wasn't Sofiana Sovereign Princess of one of the Forcinn States?  (Again, not in Gwynnedd.)

That might explain Catriona, too.  Mearan law might have been different.

[Braniana]

Several Festillic pretenders were women, though they didn't actively lead attempts to gain their 'rightful' title (Ariella and Charissa were exceptions).
Other of the Eleven Kingdoms do appear to have allowed female succession.  Sofiana probably inherited Andelon because she didn't have a brother and was the elder of two daughters.
With Morag being Dowager Duchess of Arjenol, that just means she was the wife of the dead duke, not that she became Duchess herself (her husband's brother, Mahael, got that title).  And she wasn't Wencit's heir, even though she was his sister; it was her sons who were next in line.  So Torenth appears to permit female succession to noble titles, just not to the throne.
With the MacLean sisters, Richeldis and Giesele.    I know they were co-heiresses to the lands, but wasn't the title going to go into abeyance after their uncle's death, until one of them died too, and then the other would actually inherit the title?  Wasn't that why Giesele was murdered, so that her sister would be the only heir, and married off to a son of a great lord?
The Briony point was one that had struck me too.  Maybe it's something that will be addressed in the last book.  I could see it being proposed given how long Corwyn was without a Duke.

[Gyrfalcon64207]

How hard was it to change the succession laws?  Couldn't Morgan have designated that the title would pass to her in a will or something, just in case?  And wouldn't that mean that he could also designate Richenda regent for Briony the same way?  Would he have been able to choose succession like that any other way without a male heir?

[Elkhound]

How hard was it to change the succession laws?  Couldn't Morgan have designated that the title would pass to her in a will or something, just in case?  And wouldn't that mean that he could also designate Richenda regent for Briony the same way?  Would he have been able to choose succession like that any other way without a male heir?

In the case of a noble title, the rules of succession would be spelled out in the original patent conferring the title.  For royal or sovereign princely/ducal titles, it would depend on the constitutional processes of the particular country.  In the case of Corwyn, the treaty by which Corwyn was united to Gwynned might have some such provision. 

[BalanceTheEnergies]

I seem to recall that Corwyn had a degree of autonomy, since it came from the old kingdom of Mooryn (along with Carthmoor and some other areas). There may be some clause in the original treaty that incorporated Corwyn into Gwynedd which applies, or allows the patent to be amended.

There were also civil strictures on Deryni inheriting property. Even as things were eased, Ahern (brother to Alyce, Marie and Vera) had to wait until he was 25 to govern Corwyn in his own right, though the age of majority is 14 and the accolade of knighthood is generally bestowed at 18. I'm sure that when Kelson isn't fighting rebels and Torenthi rivals, he'll have his lawyers remove any of the civil disabilities that remain for Deryni, so something might be done then.