Stories we'd like to see

[AnnieUK]

OK, here's a situation that occured to me last night.  You know how, when Kelson has a new squire learning the ropes, one of the first things he does is set controls in the lad's mind so that confidential information won't be remembered, much less repeated?  Well, OK, what happens the first time Kelson (or Dhugal, or whichever Deryni is doing this) decides to set the controls on the new squire, only they unexpectedly discover shields?  And the new squire immediately realizes what's going on, having detected the subtle mental probing, because he, too, is a secret Deryni?

Discuss.   

OK, so I can't resist! 

First reaction is that I'm not happy with Kelson casually meddling with people's minds anyway.  If it needs doing it should be done with the foreknowledge and consent of the subject.  I noticed Kenneth asking Alyce to set controls in him in CM, which is fair play.  That's partly why I wasn't entirely comfortable with what Alaric did in the Declan story, but it kept coming out that way, so I went with it.

Second reaction is that the squire would maybe attempt to avoid becoming Kelson's squire.  I know it's the "top job" and you are probably being fast tracked if you get it (looking forward to CM3 to see the reaction to Alaric going straight in as Brion's page, as Donal said he would in CM - that could make life uncomfortable for him) but if you were secret Deryni wouldn't you avoid having to be in daily contact with Kelson/Dhugal/Alaric/Duncan as the whole inner circle there, bar Nigel, is Deryni.  Unknown Deryni would be a different kettle of fish - that could be a heckuva shock on both sides.

[Evie]

Given the discussion that Morgan and Duncan have with Cardiel (in TBH, I think?) about the ethical considerations involved in tampering with people's minds and memory, and the fact that Kelson's ethical thinking would've been highly shaped by Morgan, at the very least, and that Duncan's his confessor, my guess is that Kelson only sets controls in his squires because they're sometimes required to be present when Kelson has to discuss highly confidential state secrets and/or dangerous and potentially deadly (given the prejudice of the times) Deryni secrets. He'd probably consider the controls to be necessary not only to protect the secrets themselves, but also to protect the squires.  After all, what they don't remember, they can't be forced to divulge to others, whether they be hostile bishops such as Loris, or hostile Deryni such as Charissa.  True, it would be better if he could ask for consent first, but when one of those secrets happens to be "The King has powers that are more Deryni-like than even the average empowered Haldane before him," well, it might be harder to broach the topic of consent with a human squire who might have reservations about serving a half-Deryni King.  One would think that such a squire wouldn't be serving in the Haldane Court in the first place, but then again, do young boys really have much of a choice when they're tapped for the King's service?  So it would be possible for someone to rise in the page/squire ranks on merit, I'd think, and then get to the point of being so good they're picked to be in Kelson's personal service...and if they balk then once they find out some of his secrets, and decide this wasn't what they signed on for, that would be a major security breach.  So I can see why Kelson might think this is a case of "It's easier to ask for forgiveness rather than permission."

[Alkari]

I wasn't aware that Kelson actually did set controls in new squires?  Can you point me to where he does this - or where even Morgan does it?    They generally seem to have discussions in private, without any pages/ squires present.

[Evie]

I can't give a page number, since I was listening to the audiobook, but an example is in QFSC, I think it's after Kelson's and Dhugal's knighting and the ensuing festivities.  They've gone upstairs to Kelson's apartment afterwards, Morgan and Duncan have taken their leave, and Kelson and Dhugal are alone in Kelson's apartment with an overly eager new squire who is being overly solicitous.  Kelson knows he won't be able to have a truly private conversation with Dhugal under those circumstances, so he sets the controls in his squire for him to finish his chore (boot polishing, I think?) and then go straight to sleep, and to never remember or repeat any details of conversations he shouldn't overhear.  Or something of that sort.  He shows Dhugal how to do this in case Dhugal should ever need to do it with his own squires, and he says something to the squire about this being his standard practice with all new squires.  Or anyway, the scene runs something along those lines, but I don't happen to have my .mp3 player with me at the moment to rewind it to that scene and double-check the particulars.

[Shiral]

I wasn't aware that Kelson actually did set controls in new squires?  Can you point me to where he does this - or where even Morgan does it?    They generally seem to have discussions in private, without any pages/ squires present.

The incident is in The Quest for Saint  Camber. at the end of the chapter about the knighting feast. Kelson sets controls in his new squire, Ivo Hepburn, insuring that he won't repeat what he hears the king discuss in private.  Which brings up the moral question of compelling loyalty that Ivo had already offered freely.  Presumably, Nigel finds Ivo promising, to have assigned him to his royal nephew with the honor of serving the King directly.  Something Nigel would hardly have done if he felt Ivo was a natural blabbermouth.  Compelling Ivo's discretion rathter starts with the assumption of possible wrong-doing rather than giving the kid a chance to prove his loyalty and discretion.

I wonder if Araxie will make the same requirements of her future ladies in waiting, or if she'll give them a chance, first.  Granted, some conversations  would be so sensitive as  to require a few extra precautions, but surely those can be handled on a case by case basis. And it's always a royal prerogative to send attendants out of the room when absolute confidentiality is necessary.

Melissa

[Alkari]

Thanks for this - will go and re-read the chapter.   The other incident I thought of is when Richenda sets controls on Payne and the other boys in TKJ when Kelson takes Liam and Morag as hostages.  Richenda sets them for protection against interference by Morag, so the boys will come straight to her if there is any attempt made to control or use them.

Of course, that situation isn't exactly parallel to the Ivo Hepburn one.  Richenda has no reason to expect that the boys would blab secrets or whatever: she does it to protect both them and Gwynnedd generally against any attempts by Morag to control the boys and possibly escape.

No wonder Morgan takes Brendan along as his page/squire though - not only is it good training to serve the Duke and move in the highest circles, but certainly by KKB Brendan already has a lot of Deryni training and really doesn't need any controls.

[Evie]

Remember also that controls are sometimes also set for training purposes.  Alyce (and presumably Marie as well?) had controls set in her mind by Jessamy (or for Jessamy?), which were supposed to be neutralized before she reached adulthood but apparently weren't, since that's how Jessamy was attempting to ensure that Donal would be able to control Alyce's mind so he could father a child on her without her knowledge.  Of course, since Alyce's priest/Deryni tutor also had training controls, he detected Jessamy's mind tampering and was able to reset Alyce's controls to give Alyce override power.

But getting back to the original topic, I don't know that Alyce was necessarily given the option to consent when she was a child and the controls were originally set.  They may also have been set in place as much for her protection (like the ones Richenda set in the Haldane children) as for the adults' convenience in training her.  It could be that Kelson sees the control setting in his squires in a similar way, especially if Ivo was younger than 14, and therefore considered a minor.  (I.E., yes, he's old enough to serve as a squire, therefore probably old enough to understand the implications of consent, but was he of age to give legal consent yet?)

[BalanceTheEnergies]

... You know how, when Kelson has a new squire learning the ropes, one of the first things he does is set controls in the lad's mind so that confidential information won't be remembered, much less repeated?  Well, OK, what happens the first time Kelson (or Dhugal, or whichever Deryni is doing this) decides to set the controls on the new squire, only they unexpectedly discover shields?  And the new squire immediately realizes what's going on, having detected the subtle mental probing, because he, too, is a secret Deryni?

Discuss.   

I like this as a plot point in a bigger work. After two centuries of hiding, many Deryni will likely maintain the discretion of the past, at least while they wait and see if the climate for Deryni continues to improve. There would be some tense moments until the squire's loyalty is established. The Deryni-human reconciliation Kelson is after will take some time, so such a scenario is quite likely. Such an incident could feature in a post-KKB book describing this reconciliation.

Of course, there could also be a spy inserted into the court as a squire by Teymuraz and his Byzantine supporters. Think of it as deep cover, with the squire allowed to serve for years, progress to knighthood, earn some other position(s) of trust, then attempt a coup d'état.

There's also a possible variation of this plot point. Recall those who had their powers "turned off" during Revan's baptizer cult, and suppose one of their descendants becomes Kelson's latest squire. What will the descendants' minds feel like to a trained Deryni? Surely another highly-trained Deryni would be able to detect the "switch" Rhys Thuryn found. (Perhaps Joram had time to leave a memoir that could guide later generations.) How would such rediscovered Deryni feel about their powers? Will the shiral test Camber and Evaine used on Cinhil make a comeback?

[BalanceTheEnergies]

Remember also that controls are sometimes also set for training purposes....  

But getting back to the original topic, I don't know that Alyce was necessarily given the option to consent when she was a child and the controls were originally set.  They may also have been set in place as much for her protection (like the ones Richenda set in the Haldane children) as for the adults' convenience in training her.  It could be that Kelson sees the control setting in his squires in a similar way, especially if Ivo was younger than 14, and therefore considered a minor.  (I.E., yes, he's old enough to serve as a squire, therefore probably old enough to understand the implications of consent, but was he of age to give legal consent yet?)

This makes a certain sense for several reasons. Deryni ritual tradition includes a Naming ceremony usually performed at age 8 (though Morgan and Duncan had theirs at age 4, in light of Donal's rushed timetable). Recall that the ceremony establishes that the child has a basic understanding of right and wrong (oh how I adore Morgan's answer to the question), but it doesn't declare the child to be fully adult—it reads like an intermediate step on the way to adulthood.

No doubt some controls are set by Deryni parents in their children (possibly at this time or augmented by this ritual) to manage the child's training and prevent injuries or accidents during a physical growth spurt and/or puberty. [We know the powers are tied to the physical body, in part because their use is physically tiring (recall Morgan wearing himself out in the Chronicles).] What is done at that ritual could then be used later by the parent, or another mentor the child has later on, to create or modify these controls. No doubt there is also a way to relinquish those controls in a coming-of-age ritual (which Jessamy failed to do in Alyce's case, for her own reasons).

The post of squire is itself an intermediate step en route to the knightly accolade, and Kelson would be acting in loco parentis towards his squires, as well as their overlord and king. (Effectively, he delegated this authority to Nigel as his father had done with all the royal pages and squires.) It seems likely that Kelson is working on the parent/mentor principle in establishing these controls, as well as protecting both himself and  the squires from outside coercion, magical or otherwise.

There is a grey area, given that the age of squires coincides with that of legal adulthood (14). I submit that this is addressed in the loyalty and esprit de corps first inculcated in the the pages under Nigel's tutelage. Bear in mind that this is a feudal society, not a democracy that trumpets individualism (like the modern U.S.A.). Also note that the Haldanes maintained their powers are distinct from those of the Deryni and evidence of their Divine Right to rule. Surely royal pages are socialized to expect such control, and to cede it to their overlord, so that the squires they become are prepared for it when it happens as part of their service. Thus, for Ivo and the rest, there is no issue.

[AnnieUK]

Snip

There's also a possible variation of this plot point. Recall those who had their powers "turned off" during Revan's baptizer cult, and suppose one of their descendants becomes Kelson's latest squire. What will the descendants' minds feel like to a trained Deryni? Surely another highly-trained Deryni would be able to detect the "switch" Rhys Thuryn found. (Perhaps Joram had time to leave a memoir that could guide later generations.) How would such rediscovered Deryni feel about their powers? Will the shiral test Camber and Evaine used on Cinhil make a comeback?

It's a long time since I read those books, but wasn't it only healers who could find the switch?  And maybe not even all of them?

Happy to be corrected if I misremember

[Elkhound]

That is correct.  Only some Healers could block.

[BalanceTheEnergies]

True, but bear in mind we have a number of Healers in the 12th century. If they are descended from Evaine and Rhys Thuryn, and if the skill has a genetic component, they are a pool of potential candidates for possession of the knack. It may even be that one or more of them rediscovers it as they experiment while trying to study and understand the Healing gift. Given the way in which Thuryn discovered it in the first place, the most likely occassion would be treating a Deryni with a head injury.

[tenworld]

i would love to read the story where Duncan or Morgan (both descendants of Rhys) re-discover the blocking talent and use it on Arilan or one of the other snooty CC members.

[derynifanatic64]

I would like to know what happened to Warin de Grey.  He just disappeared after Wencit and Loris were taken down.

[Elkhound]

I would like to know what happened to Warin de Grey.  He just disappeared after Wencit and Loris were taken down.

Yes; a most interesting person.  We are informed that the "has an unusual mind, but is not Deryni."  But if he isn't, what is he?  He's not Deryni, but he seems to be able to do some of the things that Deryni can do (healing most of all, but IIRC [I haven't the books with me] a few other things as well; and perhaps more, except that he either (a) doesn't know how or (b) has never seen fit to try.)