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Author Topic: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me  (Read 7760 times)

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mylifemyfaith

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I discovered the Deyneri Chronicles while I was in college, starting with the Camber series. At the time, as a young man pondering ordained ministry as a vocation, I found them quite meaningful. 

Later on, while I was in seminary, but dealing with some personal issues, I  discovered the Kelson novels, and found them even more meaningful, because the struggle of Bishop Arailan and Father Joram for full inclusion of open Dyneri in the life of their Church. I found a parallel to modern struggles for the full inclusion of women and LGBTs in the life of my Church- has anyone else seen the parallels, and found them meaningful as I have?

At any rate, I am grateful to Ms. Kurtz for these wonderful novels, which gave me hope at a particularly dark time in my life and in my vocation. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 03:28:25 pm by mylifemyfaith »

Offline tenworld

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 12:18:57 pm »
I think the original concept was to parallel the persecution of jews in the middle ages (see for example Ivanhoe, which KK has said was one of her inspirations, with the healer part resonating the most), but the novels can be read as a parable of other persecutions as well.

Offline Camber

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 09:11:00 pm »
There are lots of parellels with both worlds starting with the Roman Catholic church to the Byzantines to wards and staring patterns.  Some are quite cleverly couched, others are blatant and I'm sure I've missed scads. 

For instance, I use a staring pattern (labyrinth) as a focal point for prayer, relaxation and to alleviate some of the symptoms related to chronic arthritic pain that is sometimes quite debilitating.

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Offline Elkhound

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 10:28:31 pm »
My biggest theological disagreement with KK is her belief in reincarnation, which contradicts Hebrews 9:27--- 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.


Offline Camber

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 07:56:43 pm »
Elkhound, there are lots of contradictions in the Bible.  Why shouldn't KK believe in reincarnation?  Reincarnation exists as a part of Judaism, Christianity has its roots in Judaism, so it makes sense that reincarnation would/could/should exist in Christianity as well.  The body is a vehicle for the soul, if the soul needs to grow/mature or repair damage it did previously why not re-incarnate it so that it can do the work necessary to be able to rejoice in the Presence of God? 
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Offline Elkhound

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 09:45:17 pm »
KK can believe what ever she wants.  Reincarnation, however, is hetrodox in both Judiasim (I asked the Rabbi at our local Reform Synogogue on this point) and Christianity. 

Please show me in the Bible where reincarnation is supported.  If you can show it to me in the Word of God, I will acknowledge it.  Otherwise, it is a matter of private speculation, and if our private speculations are taken as authoritative for religious and spiritual guidance, than we might as well jettison the tradition and call ourselves Universalists or Antinomians.

Offline Camber

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Deryni novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2009, 09:22:02 am »
I too asked a rabbi and she said it exists in the mysticism of the Kabbalah; lots of people have lots of ideas about this.  Don't know how/if Christianity addresses Kabbalah but, I know there were/are Christian mystics.  I am not a religious scholar but I know that lots of people in lots of religious traditions pick and choose what they want to believe about spirituality; it does not make them any more or less a follower of the tradition.  Most people follow the dogma that suits them best and develop their own spirituality.  I'm not saying you or KK are correct or not, just that there is a LOT of wiggle room.  The fact is we don't know if reincarnation exists. 

The Bible itself is full of contradiction.  I do not, I stress that I-in my own personal belief system, do not believe that the Bible is THE Word of God.  It has been filtered and interpreted by too many humans to be THE Word.  I find it a good source of literature and history and one version our creation.  For example, where do the women that Noah's grandsons married come from?  According to Genesis 6:13 "So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."  If all perople other than Noah, his sons and their wives were destroyed, Noah's grandsons (Genesis 10) would have married thier first cousins, which is not only incestuous but also causes a myriad of health problems. Look at Europe's royal families and the insanity and health problems that resulted from such unions.  Incest as a topic is not even covered in the Bible until Moses, in Leviticus, there are mentions of it earlier but the specific prohibitions are not spelled out until Leviticus 18.

Just my tuppence,

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Offline Bynw

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2009, 12:42:27 pm »

The reincarnation is more of an Adept area rather than a Deryni one. But even in the Adept series reincarnation isnt done by just everyone. Only some of the souls reincarnate. Most its a one time trip only.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2009, 04:06:28 am »

The reincarnation is more of an Adept area rather than a Deryni one. But even in the Adept series reincarnation isnt done by just everyone. Only some of the souls reincarnate. Most its a one time trip only.

I think there's a certain amount of reincarnation-type philosophy involved in Evaine's final ritual to free Camber.  I can't remember the exact quote, but there's something about Evaine releasing Camber to a joyful purpose beyond life, rather than setting him back on the wheel, not that setting him back on the wheel would be so bad for such an advanced soul as Camber, but that by remaining Camber rather than reincarnating, he might continue in his life's work even after his physical body was dead.  I'm fairly sure that's somewhere toward the end of The Harrowing of Gwynedd, but I couldn't give a citation off the top of my head and I'm being lazy and not looking it up. :)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Elkhound

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2009, 09:15:03 am »
Also, in BETHANE it is strongly implied that Alaric is the reincarnation of Bethane's late husband.

Offline Rahere

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 08:36:48 am »
Another viewpoint is that if there is salvation, then the soul survives death. If so, then the "entwined" soul of a deceased person may influence its surviving partner, becoming a form of reincarnation. I rather suspect from experience that there is a higher power which in general bars such interaction, except in instances such as Camber's where the passage of the deceased soul is incomplete.

Offline JediMatt1000

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2018, 03:08:52 am »
To be honest and in no disrespect intended; there were many who believed in Reincarnation during Jesus' earthly ministry - many thought he was "Elijah come again". So I would imagine in the Galilean region which was occupied by Rome - there were many different beliefs aside from the Roman and Judaic.

Offline revanne

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2018, 07:01:29 am »
To answer the original point as an Anglican priest I have found the novels to be of great comfort - not least because it is a joy to find novels where faith is taken seriously. In terms of orthodoxy or otherwise we, are after, all talking of fantasy and in fantasy or our own world none of us knows the mind of God. (As doubtless Stephen Hawking now knows).
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    let those who hate him flee before him.
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
    as wax melts before the fire,
    let the wicked perish before God.
(Psalm 68 vv1-2)

Offline Mityahu

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Re: As a seminiarian, I find the Dyneri novels very meaningful for me
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2019, 08:27:44 am »
KK can believe what ever she wants.  Reincarnation, however, is hetrodox in both Judiasim (I asked the Rabbi at our local Reform Synogogue on this point) and Christianity. 

Please show me in the Bible where reincarnation is supported.  If you can show it to me in the Word of God, I will acknowledge it.  Otherwise, it is a matter of private speculation, and if our private speculations are taken as authoritative for religious and spiritual guidance, than we might as well jettison the tradition and call ourselves Universalists or Antinomians.

The tanakh (what Christians call the Old Testament) is an imperfect document.  It was written over the course of hundreds of years by hundreds of different people.  It has been edited and re-edited to speak to different times and places and is as far from a history book as it is possible to get.

If you wanted to categorize it, mythology would be the best place for it.  There are great things written in it and deep inspiration to be gleaned from it, but it's not perfect and should certainly not be taken literally.  It is so full of contradictions as to make that a very slippery slope.
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