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Author Topic: Healing Saint Camber's help in healing  (Read 1245 times)

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Offline revanne

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Saint Camber's help in healing
« on: May 01, 2019, 04:31:11 pm »
I've just been rereading some of King Javan's Year (or at least as far as I can cope with before it gets too sad) and I seem to find a discrepancy between what healers can do in the earlier centuries and what is possible later. One might expect that the earlier healers, with centuries of tradition behind them and years of training would be able to do more than their later untrained counterparts but this doesn't seem to be the case. Notably neither Tavis nor Oriel seem to be able to do very much to actually heal Javan's club foot, just soothe away the pain and muscle strain whereas Dhugal, in far from ideal circumstances and with no training and little experience, is able to heal his own broken ankle and, even more difficult, Kelson's fractured skull and swollen brain tissue.

The difference seems to be that in the later centuries those healing, or at least Duncan, Alaric and Dhugal, are described as sensing, and sometimes seeing, ghostly hands encompassing their own which are assumed to be those of St Camber.

So my question is: is the restored gift of healing the same as that previously practised or does it now have the added dimension of saintly intervention. If so, does this last or is it just as healing is re-established and/or is it simply applicable to the descendants of Camber?
Let God rise up, let his enemies be scattered;
    let those who hate him flee before him.
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
    as wax melts before the fire,
    let the wicked perish before God.
(Psalm 68 vv1-2)

Offline Shiral

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Re: Saint Camber's help in healing
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2019, 04:50:29 pm »
I've just been rereading some of King Javan's Year (or at least as far as I can cope with before it gets too sad) and I seem to find a discrepancy between what healers can do in the earlier centuries and what is possible later. One might expect that the earlier healers, with centuries of tradition behind them and years of training would be able to do more than their later untrained counterparts but this doesn't seem to be the case. Notably neither Tavis nor Oriel seem to be able to do very much to actually heal Javan's club foot, just soothe away the pain and muscle strain whereas Dhugal, in far from ideal circumstances and with no training and little experience, is able to heal his own broken ankle and, even more difficult, Kelson's fractured skull and swollen brain tissue.

The difference seems to be that in the later centuries those healing, or at least Duncan, Alaric and Dhugal, are described as sensing, and sometimes seeing, ghostly hands encompassing their own which are assumed to be those of St Camber.

So my question is: is the restored gift of healing the same as that previously practised or does it now have the added dimension of saintly intervention. If so, does this last or is it just as healing is re-established and/or is it simply applicable to the descendants of Camber?

Revanne, I think there's a distinction to be made here between birth defects like Javan's club foot, and a temporary injury such as a knife wound or broken bone. Granted the clubfoot is a  disadvantage for Javan, but it's also his normality.  He was born with it and dealt with it all his life.  A nuisance, but not really an injury.

 An injury  such as Dhugal's broken bone or Kelson's skull fracture  is NOT something either of them were born with, but temporary damage caused by their going over the waterfall.  Injuries that don't kill at once eventually heal on their own--not always cleanly or properly, but the body is always at work to restore itself, even if slowly. Healers just have the advantage of being able to speed up the process and also to make sure the injured arm, leg or head heals so that there is no permanent damage.

Melissa
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 04:53:36 pm by Shiral »
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

Offline Laurna

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Re: Saint Camber's help in healing
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2019, 05:14:12 pm »
I love this question, Revanne.

In defense of Oriel and Tavis, Javan's clubfoot is a birth defect. In modern times, doctors know to adjust the foot back to a normal position by braces just after the baby is born. Sometime surgery is involved. In medieval times would anyone have known to do that? As I am thinking about it, I suppose Healers could have cured it if they had done daily manipulations and healing just after Javan's birth. Didn't they try to do that somewhat, though as I recall that was not until Javan was much older which at that point only gave pain relief. It should have been done as a baby when the bones were still soft and growing.

The later Healings by Alaric, Duncan and Dhugal were all about fixing injuries and returning the body to it's pre-injured condition. I don't know if there is ever a healing of a congenital birth defect. Also Alaric comments that his attempts to Heal did not always work. That is because he did not have years of training. I believe that it is Camber's knowledge for having worked with Rhys that allowed the knowledge that he knew to help the Healer of Kelson's time.  Without those ghostly hands encompassing their own, I wonder if our Kelsonian Healers would have been able to heal at all, that is until they finally put in the time to train. As I recall it is also Azim who assists Dhugal to Heal Matias and it is his knowledge that helps them succeed.

I also personally believe that Camber only appears to those who are his descendants. There may have been other Healers in Kelson's time, but without training and without Camber's ghostly assistance, they would not have been able to use their talent to any good degree. That is why Warren is such an oddity. Was Camber helping him too?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 05:16:52 pm by Laurna »

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Saint Camber's help in healing
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2019, 05:18:49 pm »
I also personally believe that Camber only appears to those who are his descendants. There may have been other Healers in Kelson's time, but without training and without Camber's ghostly assistance, they would not have been able to use their talent to any good degree. That is why Warren is such an oddity. Was Camber helping him too?

I don't know what to make of Warin de Grey (and I'm not sure KK has solved the mystery of his abilities herself!), but I do think that Camber peeks in on the Haldanes as well as his own descendants (and it's possible that someone descended from Camber [or more than one] has married into the Haldane line by Kelson's time, rendering the answer "yes" or "both," LOL).
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline reiki deryni

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Re: Saint Camber's help in healing
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2019, 03:58:25 pm »
Warin de Grey is most likely a descendant of switched off Deryni, as was Bethane. As for Camber, he probably can go where ever he wants.

Offline Kareina

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Re: Saint Camber's help in healing
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2019, 01:29:04 am »
Warin de Grey is most likely a descendant of switched off Deryni, as was Bethane. As for Camber, he probably can go where ever he wants.

If Warin de Grey were a descendant of switched off Deryni, then when they did the deep reading of him, he would have registered as Deryni, wouldn't he?  But he was very clearly not.

On the other hand, I don't recall off the top of my head if switched off Deryni read as Deryni during such a deep reading if the reader isn't one of those people who know how to flip the switch. Nor do I know if that switch is purely mental, and thus children conceived and born after their parents are born would be born switched on (which could be a problem with a precious child we idling magic while too young to know what they are doing, and with no one around with the power to do anything about it), or if that switch somehow effects the body on a gene level, so that their subsequent children would be born with that switch off.
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Offline whitelaughter

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Re: Saint Camber's help in healing
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2019, 07:41:58 am »
Healing - heck all miracles - are what happens naturally, intensified. Water into wine? Happens every year. Heal a broken ankle? Yes, it would have healed given time. But the clubbed foot? It wouldn't heal naturally, so the Healers were stumped.

I've been mulling over that specific example for decades, and I suggest that a Deryni Healer could have Healed it by mucking around in Joram's mind/with a mirror by tricking the body into using the 'blueprint' for the healthy foot and simply mirror imaging it, so that the body thought that it was healing the healthy foot. Still, either no one thought of that, or for some reason it wouldn't work.

But given Camber's known fascination with the Healing Arts, it wouldn't surprise me if an untrained Healer with Camber in the driving seat could achieve things equal or even better than the experts of the golden age - remember, Evaine kills herself so that he'll have access to Heaven: where Camber would get some truly awesome training.

Offline reiki deryni

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Re: Saint Camber's help in healing
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 08:26:49 pm »
Deryni could not detect that anybody had been Deryni in the Heir to Camber trilogy without knowing where to look and then it was still difficult. That problem would have still existed at the time of Warin de Grey also.

Offline whitelaughter

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Re: Saint Camber's help in healing
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2019, 08:32:52 am »
Deryni could not detect that anybody had been Deryni in the Heir to Camber trilogy without knowing where to look and then it was still difficult. That problem would have still existed at the time of Warin de Grey also.
Source for this? Certainly Wencit has no problems determining that Bran Coris is not Deryni, but instead of Haldane descent.

 


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