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Author Topic: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?  (Read 6625 times)

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Offline Kareina

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how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« on: December 24, 2018, 04:21:44 am »
I am just re-reading The King's Deryni. This time, when I got to the part where Alaric saw Xenia in the embrace of the Torenthi, my first thought was that the man was using the physical contact to mask the fact that he was doing a reading of everything she knows about the court of Gwynedd, which, as sister to the King, is likely a lot.  The story specifies that "he had her maidenhead" during that encounter.  What do the rest of you think? Can a well trained Deryni split his focus to do a deep reading of a human subject he has controlled *at the same time* as leaving his body to follow instincts for sexual coupling?

At the end of that section Alaric wishes that he understood why Xenia was sent off in marriage, when she had likely been controlled and made to profess a love that she wouldn't otherwise have felt, and Llion replies "To preserve the honor of Gwynedd".  However, I suspect that it may have been as much for the security of Gwynedd.  Assuming that I am correct in my assumption that he had had time to do a fairly deep reading before they were discovered in their alcove, he likely also had the opportunity to set controls that could be accessed later, not only by him, but by other trained Deryni that he trusted enough to give the details to.  While she wouldn't have had so many state secrets yet at her age, having someone so deep in the heart of the court who could be read later wouldn't have been good for the security of Gwynnedd, so sending her off in marriage assured that her husband didn't get any more information about the state of the Kingdom from her than he had already had access to.  What do the rest of you think?
--Kareina

Offline DesertRose

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2018, 08:53:03 am »
I would think it depends on the skill of the practitioner.

One of the physical activities that is fairly well established that some people can do while in trance is automatic writing; Camber does a variant of it after scrying with the Haldana necklace, when he writes troop numbers and placements on a map, based on what he saw while he was still connected to Ariella.

In that instance, I don't think Camber was still fully in deep trance; IIRC, he had to pull back very abruptly because Ariella noticed his psychic presence, but I also don't think he was fully out of trance yet.  He mentions wanting to write down the information before he loses the memory of what he saw.

Trance states are also more of a spectrum than a yes/no binary; if the Torenthi was in a light-to-moderate depth of trance, he might well have been able to engage in physical activity on one level while engaging in psychic activity in Xenia's mind at the same time.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Laurna

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2018, 12:30:12 pm »
There are a few references to Alaric and Richenda  having deep physic sharing while enjoying their time in bed. I think this is the greatest reason a Deryni would want to marry a another Deryni. So to answer you, yes.
Trouble is that scene you mentioned always made me angry. That he manipulated her and no one protected her after. But as you say, he set controls in her and there was no one in the court circle who could reverse those controls, as there were very few well trained Deryni in all of Gywnedd. Therefore, their only option was to marry her to him. But this was very very wrong in my mind.

Offline Bynw

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2018, 12:42:30 pm »
Yes as others have stated this is very possible as are doing other things while in trance. It does depend on the skill of the individual as well. I know for a fact that I can personally run a small roller coaster, stopping the trains perfectly with people in them while in a trance. The coaster layout made a great staring pattern btw. Mind completely elsewhere while the body does something locally.

And yes as @Laurna mentioned. What was done with the controls was highly unethical but that's for another topic.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2018, 11:21:28 pm »
There are a few references to Alaric and Richenda  having deep physic sharing while enjoying their time in bed. I think this is the greatest reason a Deryni would want to marry a another Deryni. So to answer you, yes.

IIRC, Evaine mentions the psychic connection between herself and Rhys in their marriage more than once.  In Camber the Heretic, she tells Revan (when she's getting ready to recruit him to provide the face of the Baptizer movement) that "Rhys and I are mated in our souls, as well as hearts and bodies.  We could not ask for closer union in this life."  I think she also implies it, perhaps not saying it quite so plainly, in Camber of Culdi when she's talking to either Cinhil or Megan (or maybe both of them, at different times).

So that's a good point that @Laurna raises.  KK says in Deryni Magic that rapport is a lot easier to attain if both/all parties are in physical contact with each other (holding hands or one person resting their hands on the other's shoulders or head/face), so I think that married couples/lovers would probably fairly easily be able to enter rapport with each other when they are in bed (or wherever ;) ) together.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Kareina

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 08:15:57 am »
I think I also recall a scene in one of the Camber books where one Deryni kisses someone in an alcove to avoid undue attention from someone walking by.  If I remember correctly, they may share some thoughts during that embrace, and they wind up becoming a couple after that "introduction", but I am not remembering which story or which characters, so I may have details confused.
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Offline Kareina

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2018, 08:20:45 am »
Trouble is that scene you mentioned always made me angry. That he manipulated her and no one protected her after. But as you say, he set controls in her and there was no one in the court circle who could reverse those controls, as there were very few well trained Deryni in all of Gywnedd. Therefore, their only option was to marry her to him. But this was very very wrong in my mind.

It was very wrong, and I love Alaric for saying outright to others that he thought it was wrong.  I suspect that, in addition to having it as a life goal to make his world safe for Deryni, he would also like to make it safer, and less unfair to women exposed to such situations.  Not that I recall seeing so many direct examples of that in his later life, unless you count his willingness to love instead of condemn a traitor's wife.
--Kareina

Offline DesertRose

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 10:18:06 am »
I think I also recall a scene in one of the Camber books where one Deryni kisses someone in an alcove to avoid undue attention from someone walking by.  If I remember correctly, they may share some thoughts during that embrace, and they wind up becoming a couple after that "introduction", but I am not remembering which story or which characters, so I may have details confused.

I think that was Rhysel (ETA:  Thuryn, daughter of Evaine and Rhys) kissing Robert Ainslie while undercover as Queen Michaela's tiring maid named Liesel, in The Bastard Prince.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Kareina

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2018, 03:54:21 pm »

I think that was Rhysel (ETA:  Thuryn, daughter of Evaine and Rhys) kissing Robert Ainslie while undercover as Queen Michaela's tiring maid named Liesel, in The Bastard Prince.

Yes, thank you! That was the scene I was thinking of.
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Offline DesertRose

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 04:39:09 pm »

I think that was Rhysel (ETA:  Thuryn, daughter of Evaine and Rhys) kissing Robert Ainslie while undercover as Queen Michaela's tiring maid named Liesel, in The Bastard Prince.

Yes, thank you! That was the scene I was thinking of.

And you're right about the two remaining a couple; they were married, per the epilogue, and I believe Codex has some information about their descendants.  (My books, including my copy of Codex Derynianus, are in storage, so I can't look to verify.)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Kareina

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2018, 10:25:43 am »

And you're right about the two remaining a couple; they were married, per the epilogue, and I believe Codex has some information about their descendants.  (My books, including my copy of Codex Derynianus, are in storage, so I can't look to verify.)

Ok, my copy of the Codex was much handier than that--I needed only walk to the other room.

Entry for Robert Ainslie confirms that he married Rhysel in the XXIst day of August 928 (he would have been 27 at the time). They had three kids:

Bethany (Lady), who married Alphard Baron Stanzar
Javyl (Sir, and later Lord Argoed)
Tiphane (Lady) who married Tammaron Duke of Cassan

Rhysel's entry indicates that she would have been almost 18 when they married.

There are no specific entries for the kids, but, of course Tammaron is mentioned in the list of the Dukes of Cassan.


--Kareina

Offline Laurna

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2018, 01:56:51 pm »
Good morning Ladies, That unexpected kiss which you mention between Rhysel Thuryn and Robert Ainslie sparked the next 13 generations and lead us to nearly ALL of our favorite Deyrni, 325 people in last count.

The Camber descendants charts posted here will show them. This is my work from going though the CODEX DERYNINESS
http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php?topic=1441.0


Below I will give you an UNAPPROVED Descendant Chart starting Rhysel and Robert, after I put the info in to ROOTS MAGIC, a genealogy program. This is work that I came up with from simply following the CODEX DERYNINESS through all the generations. I had submitted a full copy of this "from Camber- forward to Alaric" to KK for her approval, and as yet I have not heard back. Mostly do to the fact that she does not have her genealogy charts readily available. So this is not official:

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A39f136fc-2fb8-4b7d-83ea-4fff313923a2
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 02:33:03 pm by Laurna »

Offline Kareina

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Re: how much autopilot can one do while in a trance?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2018, 11:00:14 am »
This is my work from going though the CODEX DERYNINESS

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A39f136fc-2fb8-4b7d-83ea-4fff313923a2

Wow, that is quite a project, and a huge number of descendants, too!
--Kareina

 


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