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Author Topic: Gabrilites  (Read 2305 times)

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Offline Marko

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Gabrilites
« on: April 04, 2018, 05:33:38 pm »
Has anyone ever wondered what happened to the Gabrilites who made it to the portal in Dhassa before Dom Emrys destroyed the portal at Saint Neot's?  I just finished re-reading Camber the Heretic and it brought that question back to the surface again.  The Codex implies that some went abroad and I wonder where.  If they went abroad, Healing should not have died with them IMO.  Depending on how far some of them ended up from Gwynedd, there should have been some Kingdom, Principality, etc. that would have allowed them to build a new Abbey and school to teach new Healers.  The Forcinn or somewhere south of there or Torenth should have welcomed the remaining Gabrilites with open arms, since both places already had a Deryni population and Torenth had Deryni rulers that would not have had the issues that the Regents had with anything Deryni.  I also wonder how many scrolls, codices etc. were lost during the two days that Saint Neot's burned after Rhun sacked the place.

Offline Evie

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 08:14:40 pm »
I suspect many, if not most, went to the Healer school in Tralia that the Codex mentions being destroyed a few generations later. (Can't remember how anymore. Fire? Plague? That would be ironic! I just remember I sent my Healer character from "The Least of These" there because it would have been a known refuge for Healers during the time of the Regents.)
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Offline Bynw

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2018, 08:33:52 pm »
According to the Codex, there were other healer schools. They had been sacked by the Norsemen. In 1023 the King of Torenth gathered the remaining healers, most in their middle years or far older in an attempt to reestablish a school. But war broke out and they were sent to aid the soldiers. Most died at Killingford.

Other attempts have been made to import enough healers from Byzanthyum and Asshyr  but due to the language, cultural differences and long journey to Torenth most didn't leave their homelands.

Offline whitelaughter

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2018, 06:24:24 am »
Given it specifies that healers aren't particularly effective against disease, it is likely that a large number die from plague each generation, while doing what they can for other victims.

Offline Laurna

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2018, 01:19:03 pm »
Very likely!
Just like medical staff today are susceptible to disease. I can not tell you how many times I have caught the flue or worse from a patient in my 25 years of Hospital work. No matter how hard you try to stay clean and de-germ, it happens.
I think that Healers have a better chance of surviving, in that they can cure the symptoms and hopefully live through the disease, but if it was a deadly strain? Yes, it would and could wipe out many Healers.

I do believe that Healers can cure the symptoms, they can control antibodies, histamines and cell damage, They just can not remove the bacteria or virus from the cells directly. However, if the Healer understands the process, they should be able to stimulate the patient's own immune system to help fight the disease and reduce its effects.

Offline Evie

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 01:26:39 pm »

I do believe that Healers can cure the symptoms, they can control antibodies, histamines and cell damage, They just can not remove the bacteria or virus from the cells directly. However, if the Healer understands the process, they should be able to stimulate the patient's own immune system to help fight the disease and reduce its effects.

I think modern-day Healers would be able to do these things. Medieval era Healers, though, would be limited by what they are able to visualize, and in an age before high power magnification and germ theory, they wouldn't even know what to visualize to do these particular things, although things like bone-setting or wound healing would be second-nature to a fully trained medieval Healer.  Even something like midwifery would be possible, since even though the emerging baby might be unseen, enough can be felt and visualized using the physical and psychic senses, once they're attuned to what to look for, to help with turning the baby the right way using Deryni powers.
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Offline DesertRose

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 01:32:38 pm »

I do believe that Healers can cure the symptoms, they can control antibodies, histamines and cell damage, They just can not remove the bacteria or virus from the cells directly. However, if the Healer understands the process, they should be able to stimulate the patient's own immune system to help fight the disease and reduce its effects.

I think modern-day Healers would be able to do these things. Medieval era Healers, though, would be limited by what they are able to visualize, and in an age before high power magnification and germ theory, they wouldn't even know what to visualize to do these particular things, although things like bone-setting or wound healing would be second-nature to a fully trained medieval Healer.  Even something like midwifery would be possible, since even though the emerging baby might be unseen, enough can be felt and visualized using the physical and psychic senses, once they're attuned to what to look for, to help with turning the baby the right way using Deryni powers.

I agree with Evie.  Medieval Healers would have been able to treat the symptoms, and might even have been able to give the patient's immune system a boost, since they could visualize the body in a state of health and lend energy to restoring the body to that state, as well as being able to induce a particularly restful sleep state, and it is widely recognized by modern medical science that sleep/rest are very important for immune system function and recovery from illnesses and injuries.

But in the canon timeline, well before the invention of microscopes and the development of germ theory, actually curing a disease (like, the flu or a cold or bubonic plague or whatever) wouldn't be possible even for a Healer; the best they'd be able to manage would be treatment of the symptoms and supportive care like Healer's sleep (and less esoteric types of supportive care, like hydration and healthful food).
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Offline Lochiel

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 11:59:48 am »
I'm rereading the Camber series and am on the 3rd book (almost finished) what a great book even with all the horrible tragedies.  If Camber had integrated Rhy's memories or someone else who was a healer, could he become a Healer?  (Hi everyone btw)
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Offline revanne

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2019, 12:20:00 pm »
Good thought.

I've always understood that the healing talent was innate or not and for those without it, it could not be learnt, although had a less talented healer (eg Tavis) integrated Rhys memories he could have become much more skilled.

But with Camber one never knows.
Let God rise up, let his enemies be scattered;
    let those who hate him flee before him.
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
    as wax melts before the fire,
    let the wicked perish before God.
(Psalm 68 vv1-2)

Offline Bynw

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 12:37:00 pm »
I'm rereading the Camber series and am on the 3rd book (almost finished) what a great book even with all the horrible tragedies.  If Camber had integrated Rhy's memories or someone else who was a healer, could he become a Healer?  (Hi everyone btw)


No. He would not have the ability to Heal. Healing is a genetic function of certain Deryni. He would have a great understanding of Healing and medical knowledge. But he would not be able to heal at all.

Offline Laurna

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 02:32:06 pm »
It has always been my understanding that Camber learned the knowledge of Healing from Rhys. Camber was always an astute student of knowledge. Camber himself could not Heal. However, Camber could and often did use his knowledge of what Healing entailed to help less trained Healers use their abilities like a master.
This is how Alaric and Duncan learned to use the genetic ability that they had when they were not trained as Healers. That "Hand on top of their Hand" was a very important key. Camber, in his spiritual essence, could guide the untrained Healer to save lives.
The fact that Alaric states in one of the later books that his Healing abilities did not always work, would have a lot to do with just how much knowledge he had and how much Camber could assist him. Together they probably had to learn what limitations Healing has. Such as stopping an infection or disease, or Healing too sever an injury.  Such as Alaric could Heal Derry but he was unable to help poor Sidana.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2019, 04:12:59 pm »
It has always been my understanding that Camber learned the knowledge of Healing from Rhys. Camber was always an astute student of knowledge. Camber himself could not Heal. However, Camber could and often did use his knowledge of what Healing entailed to help less trained Healers use their abilities like a master.
This is how Alaric and Duncan learned to use the genetic ability that they had when they were not trained as Healers. That "Hand on top of their Hand" was a very important key. Camber, in his spiritual essence, could guide the untrained Healer to save lives.
The fact that Alaric states in one of the later books that his Healing abilities did not always work, would have a lot to do with just how much knowledge he had and how much Camber could assist him. Together they probably had to learn what limitations Healing has. Such as stopping an infection or disease, or Healing too sever an injury.  Such as Alaric could Heal Derry but he was unable to help poor Sidana.

I think that was also the problem Evaine, Joram, and Queron encountered in the ritual to reverse the Forbidden Spell that Camber had cast upon himself in his last battle; if Queron (or Rhys or Dom Emrys or any other highly-skilled Healer) had been present at the battle, they might have been able to Heal Camber's wounds, but by the time Camber's body was recovered and brought to the Michaeline sanctuary, Camber's body had lost too much blood for Queron to Heal him.

(There was also the other problem of Camber having insufficiently understood the Forbidden Spell and having thus botched it, which was why Evaine had to pour her life force into releasing him, because Camber was neither alive in the mortal realm nor passed into the spirit realm, and Evaine's sacrifice shifted the balance so that Camber could walk between the spirit and mortal worlds.)

Back on the original question, I agree with @Bynw that Healing is a trait that one either possesses from birth or does not; if the Healing talent is present, the person can be trained to use it at high levels (see Rhys, Dom Emrys, Dom Queron, et al.), or they can be forced by circumstance and human hatred to fumble along as best they can (Morgan, Duncan, and to a lesser degree Dhugal), but if one is not born with the Healing talent, they cannot learn to Heal.  They can perform the medical functions of any human, with the additional Deryni abilites of being able to induce sleep, enter Rapport (which might help to calm an upset/frightened patient), and Mind-See (which might help someone understand how an injury happened), but they would not be able to restore the body to health the way a Healer can.

But that raises an interesting question:  Deryni-like abilities can be granted to certain humans (such as the Haldane powers, plus people like Bran Coris, and I suspect Sean Lord Derry if Morgan had the knowledge of how to grant the powers--not intended to smear Alaric, just a statement that he did not get the advantage of Deryni training the way Denis Arilan and the other Camberian Councillors for people in his time, much less the training levels of Camber and his contemporaries).

I don't think merely assuming the memories of a Healer would work (although the memory assumption itself is no simple process), though; it would probably have to be some fairly involved, planned, and carefully performed ritual, as the ritual to empower Cinhil.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Bynw

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2019, 04:20:01 pm »

But that raises an interesting question:  Deryni-like abilities can be granted to certain humans (such as the Haldane powers, plus people like Bran Coris, and I suspect Sean Lord Derry if Morgan had the knowledge of how to grant the powers--not intended to smear Alaric, just a statement that he did not get the advantage of Deryni training the way Denis Arilan and the other Camberian Councillors for people in his time, much less the training levels of Camber and his contemporaries).

I don't think merely assuming the memories of a Healer would work (although the memory assumption itself is no simple process), though; it would probably have to be some fairly involved, planned, and carefully performed ritual, as the ritual to empower Cinhil.

I agree here. Assuming the memories/knowledge of Healer wont grant you the ability to Heal. Now I would personally say that during a power assumption ritual, it would be possible to grant the Healer power to the individual. And in a gaming point of view, since I am a gamer. I would allow that to happen as well. But there would be rules and stipulations for it.

That does mean that the 4 Deryni that gave power to Cinhil could have made him a Healer had they figured that bit out.

Offline revanne

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2019, 02:22:50 am »
And once Camber is in the Spirit world of course all bets are off.
Let God rise up, let his enemies be scattered;
    let those who hate him flee before him.
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
    as wax melts before the fire,
    let the wicked perish before God.
(Psalm 68 vv1-2)

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Gabrilites
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2019, 07:34:32 am »
And once Camber is in the Spirit world of course all bets are off.

Yup, and from the impressions Evaine had in the last moments of her mortal life, it seemed that Camber would be able to be a bridge between God and the mortal world, and in the religious system of the Eleven Kingdoms, God can do as He likes, which could and certainly does seem to include Healing through the bridge that Camber became.  ;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

 


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