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Author Topic: I just got my copy. . .  (Read 34123 times)

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Offline lenni

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2014, 10:09:35 pm »
That was the plan before Rob Reginald's death. KK would still like to do the project, if she can get all of Rob's file from his widow and find someone else with the tech savvy to pull together that project for her. At Dragoncon she hinted that she may seek help from people in this forum to help her keep the details straight.
Fingers crossed!! I'm sure that many would be willing to pitch in, myself included! :-D

Offline Laurna

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2014, 12:47:54 am »
Oh Poor, Jorian de Courcy, I had forgotten about him. I know we will not forget him when Kings Deryni comes out.
The genealogy site has him as a descendent of Alphard de Courcy and Bethany Ainslie. Sad. :'(

The one thing I see from the lists which Lenni has given seems to prove that all the de Courcy's are Deryni. Therefore, in the noble family of Cassan a lot of Deryni blood has been added over the generations which few if any seem to be aware of: Tiphane Lady Ainslie, Ardana Lady de Courcy, and Vera Howard de Corwyn. Added to the fact that Adelicia who is about 1/2 Deryni marries her cousin, Arnall who is 1/4 Deryni, I'm surprised none of them were actually showing Deryni traits. It must have been passed down as the Highland Sight.     

Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2014, 02:56:58 am »
And let's throw in that the McLains are a branch of the same Deryni MacLeans that ruled Kierney under the Festils so they brought a little Deryni blood into the family too.


(I worked out a while back that Ithel, Llewell and Sidonie MacArdry-Quinnell were at least 1/64th Deryni (by descent from Rhysel through the McLain and Haldane marriages into the MacFaolan royal line of Howicce as discussed previously). While it's very unlikely they were aware of it I was contemplating an alternate Llewell who not only was aware but was also much more cynical and pragmatic than the rest of his family and would eventually channel his dislike of Loris into throwing that into his face: "I'd ask how much Deryni blood it took to be condemned in your eyes, Loris, but I already know: enough to have powers you yourself lack. Alas for myself I don't merit your spite in that fashion.")

(I see Loris as motivated mostly by power and motivated by spite against those who have power he lacks and those who choose to resist the exercise of the powers he does have - thus his hatred of Deryni in general and of Morgan, Duncan and Kelson in particular.)

Offline Elkhound

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2014, 09:35:21 am »
(I see Loris as motivated mostly by power and motivated by spite against those who have power he lacks and those who choose to resist the exercise of the powers he does have - thus his hatred of Deryni in general and of Morgan, Duncan and Kelson in particular.)

I've always thought that he might have had some unpleasant encounter with a Deryni in his childhood or youth that frightened and traumatized him badly.

Offline Evie

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2014, 10:05:38 am »

The one thing I see from the lists which Lenni has given seems to prove that all the de Courcy's are Deryni. Therefore, in the noble family of Cassan a lot of Deryni blood has been added over the generations which few if any seem to be aware of: Tiphane Lady Ainslie, Ardana Lady de Courcy, and Vera Howard de Corwyn. Added to the fact that Adelicia who is about 1/2 Deryni marries her cousin, Arnall who is 1/4 Deryni, I'm surprised none of them were actually showing Deryni traits. It must have been passed down as the Highland Sight.     

Maybe they carried the trait but it was not expressed, since the Deryni trait is recessive, IIRC. Or they may have been untrained or even unaware they were Deryni. Without training or knowledge of their Deryni heritage, I can see them passing some innate skills like Truth-Reading off as just an uncanny knack for catching people in a lie (after all, some humans are good at that too, just usually not with 100% accuracy), and a power such as creating hand fire, while easy enough for a Deryni child who knows she is Deryni to learn, might remain undiscovered by a child who has no idea she has potential power. And yes, some abilities might have been confused with things like the Second Sight already known and trusted in the borders.
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Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2014, 08:20:32 am »
My research continues and now I'm looking at a family that intermarried with the Haldanes: the MacFaolans. Some of this is a little theoretical.


Gosbert MacFaolan = Tiphanelle Haldane (daughter of Cluim Haldane & Swynebeth FitzArthur-Quinnell, grand-daughter of Tammaron FitzArthur-Quinnell & Tiphane Ainslie) with issue: Carlus II MacFaolan and Bresal II MacFaolan, each in turn kings of Howicce.

Bresal II MacFaolan has issue: Fergus MacFaolan, king of Howicce

Fergus MacFaolan = Lissa McLain (elder daughter of Tairchell McLain, grand-daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis) with issue: Colman I MacFaolan, king of Howicce, and Aude MacFaolan, who marries Judhael Quinnell-Kincaid (son of Rhiryd Kincaid & Annalind Quinnell, grand-son of Jolyon II Quinnell and Urracca Faucon)

Colman I MacFaolan = Gwenael Gruffud with issue: Illann II MacFaolan-Gruffud, king of Howicce, and Richeldis MacFaolan-Gruffud, who marries Donal Haldane (son of Malcolm Haldane and Roisian Quinnell, grand-son of Jolyon II Quinnell and Urracca Faucon) and Cormac MacFaolan-Gruffud (who married Melovee of Calam)

Illann II MacFaolan-Gruffud = Celestine Faucon (daughter of Ursion Faucon & Maisie Alberic, grand-daughter of Charibert Faucon) with issue: Ronan IV MacFaolan-Gruffud and Colman II MacFaolan-Gruffud, each in turn kings of Howicce, and Gwenlian MacFaolan-Gruffud


So through the MacFaolans there's actually a second line of kinship between the Quinnells and Haldanes: Brion and Nigel Haldane's mother and Caitrin Quinnell are first cousins, thus Kelson and Sidonie were second-cousins once-removed through Fergus MacFaolan/Lissa McLain as well as third cousins through Jolyon Quinnell/Urracca Faucon.

Also this McLain connection makes Dhugal and Kelson fourth-cousins through Roger McLain/Glorian McInnis.

Offline Laurna

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2014, 11:54:58 am »
What a web we weave!
I think Roger McLain needs his own entry in the Codex. He seems a pivotal player in the genealogy line.
I am following you. Keep up the good work.

Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2014, 11:18:48 am »
An interesting year emerges as I continue to read through the Codex: 1067

First mention appeared under the Ordo Voc Dei as their Grand Abbot, Michael of Kheldour was instrumental in restoring the old synod to power following the 'rebellion of Theophylact'

Theophylact doesn't have an entry but he appears under the list of Archbishops of Valoret for 1067 and is marked as (Usurper). Neither of the other Sees (Rhemuth or Valoret) changed hands that year so what happened?

Under 1067 we find that Theophylact was an Itinerant Bishop who deposed the sitting Archbishop (who died imprisoned) and was elected by a minority vote as Archbishop and Primate! He wasn't ousted for five months - what in the world was going on!?

Offline Laurna

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2015, 10:28:07 am »
Quote
Fergus MacFaolan = Lissa McLain (elder daughter of Tairchell McLain, grand-daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis) with issue: Colman I MacFaolan, king of Howicce, and Aude MacFaolan, who marries Judhael Quinnell-Kincaid (son of Rhiryd Kincaid & Annalind Quinnell, grand-son of Jolyon II Quinnell and Urracca Faucon)

Drakensis  I just discovered Ayn McLain. She is listed in the Codex page 168 under Malcolm Haldane.
Ayn McLain is a daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis.  Ayn marries Lord Loren Earl of Kilarden(997-1027). Ayn and Loren's son is Rhiryd Kincaid, Earl of Kilarden(1027-1045). Rhiryd marries Annalind Quinnell and have a son Judhael Quinnell- Kincaid, earl of Kilarden (1045-1109).
Kilarden is said to be on the Northern border of Meara with Cassan.

The web is weaving tighter and tighter! ;D

Offline Elkhound

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2015, 01:30:52 pm »
Marrying one's cousins is something royalty and rednecks have in common.

Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2015, 03:08:02 am »
Quote
Fergus MacFaolan = Lissa McLain (elder daughter of Tairchell McLain, grand-daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis) with issue: Colman I MacFaolan, king of Howicce, and Aude MacFaolan, who marries Judhael Quinnell-Kincaid (son of Rhiryd Kincaid & Annalind Quinnell, grand-son of Jolyon II Quinnell and Urracca Faucon)

Drakensis  I just discovered Ayn McLain. She is listed in the Codex page 168 under Malcolm Haldane.
Ayn McLain is a daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis.  Ayn marries Lord Loren Earl of Kilarden(997-1027). Ayn and Loren's son is Rhiryd Kincaid, Earl of Kilarden(1027-1045). Rhiryd marries Annalind Quinnell and have a son Judhael Quinnell- Kincaid, earl of Kilarden (1045-1109).
Kilarden is said to be on the Northern border of Meara with Cassan.

The web is weaving tighter and tighter! ;D

Thanks Laurna, It is indeed!

Offline Aerlys

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2015, 01:30:46 pm »
Marrying one's cousins is something royalty and rednecks have in common.

Yep. 'Cause nuthin' sez lovin' like marryin' yer cousin.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 01:44:55 pm by Aerlys »
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Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2017, 04:20:13 am »
I've gone back into the Codex to look at House Festil's efforts to reclaim Gwynedd in 948 and 983-5.

While the latter is a relatively well-detailed as a major military conflict, the events of 948 are very poorly detailed - something that may be deliberate in-universe.

We know:
* The Festil-Haldane conflict appears to last only 2-3 months and there's no mention of any battles taking place.
* A plague swept through Rhemuth (the Black Death) but it's not clear how widespread it is. We know Deryni are blamed and there's at least one major riot as a result.
* The Earls of Carthane and of Tarleton are killed and the titles attainted, which implies treason on the part of the two Earls (both descended from members of the cabal that ruled Gwynedd under Alroy, Javan and Rhys Michael).
* Secorim (another legacy of the regents) becomes Archbishop of Valoret during the same 2-3 months and dies in the same period. And while earlier in the year, it took just under a month to replace the Archbishop of Rhemuth, it's around another 2-3 months before the vacancies (the new Archbishop of Rhemuth also died) are filled.
* The Kheldour lords seem to be quite hard hit. The Duke of Claibourne, his heir (Earl of Rhendall) and the Earl of Marley all die over the summer, leaving the Howells of Eastmarch the only branch to be unscathed. Whether the cause of death was plague or violence isn't clear.
* In addition to the (assumed) traitors and the Kheldour lords, the only other lords mentioned as dying are the Earl of Kilshane (whose line goes extinct), Duke Tambert of Cassan, and both Iver and Hobard MacInnis (father and brother to Prince Uthyr's bride) with Kierney passing to the (very young) Richard MacInnis and Culdi passing to Hobard's sister Grania MacInnis Haldane. This seems to suggest there wasn't widespread warfare.
* The extended MacRorie family are also significantly depleted - Joram, his nephews Ansel (along with wife  Fiona and brother-in-law Camlin) and Tieg (along with his wife Karis). This leaves the family reduced to Ansel's son Stuart 'MacAthan', Rhysel Thuryn Ainslie and Jerusha Thuryn Drummond (and their descendants). With the Ainslies and Drummonds present at court and the male line renaming themselves MacAthans it seems that this may be the period that the period of them using hidden strongholds ends and the Camberian faction henceforth are hiding in plain sight as ostensibly human families.

The last point seems to shift into speculation, which is really what we're left with.

House Haldane remains very small in size here. Only Owain and Uthyr (and their wives) at the start of 948 and only Uthyr and his son Nygel at the end. It makes sense that Marek Festil might feel they could be easily removed or that an internal attempt might be made to reduce them to figureheads.

It would seem unlikely that the human Earls of Tarleton and Carthane would have allied with the Festils, although they might have been deceived. It seems more possible though that two separate schemes are taking place though.

Marek had seen Rhys Michael's power but his memories had been altered at his own request. Even if they were later restored, it's plausible he doesn't have a grasp on the Haldanes' magic - and of course he's not even dealing with Rhys, but Owain and Uthyr. Owain has likely been prepared since the start of his reign to use his magic very judiciously but ably. The younger prince's magic is hard to guess at since his potential was activated more or less by accident when Owain's magic was activated in The Bastard Prince. It makes sense that Marek might underrate the Haldanes.

Meanwhile, if the Haldanes have gone north (to their Cassan and Kheldour allies) to wait out the plague and riots around Rhemuth it's not impossible that there could have been an attempt to take control of Rhemuth and of the synod by those who look back on the regents with warm feelings. If this is happening alongside a Festillic attempt on the Haldanes then it becomes a dangerous one-two punch.

Offline Laurna

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2017, 01:39:38 pm »
Quote
"in the year 948 the King Owain was killed during the invasionof Gwynedd by Marek I pretender of Gwynedd, He was XXIV years of age at his death and was succeeded by his younger brother, the Prince Uthyr.
Codex page 198
Quote
The Prince Uthyr...succeeded his brother, the King Owain, in the year 948, and shortly thereafter defeated the Festillic pretender, Prince Marek I. He was crowned King of Gwynedd by Bertrand de Tolbert Archbishop Primate of Valoret and All Gwynedd on the XXIXth day of September following.
Codex page 253

We do not have the exact date of Marek I's attack on Owain or how long it took for Uthyr to defeat Marek I. I did not look up to see if the Death of Marek is documented, but it will likely be in the summer. Was the plague also in the summer months when the rats and flees were at their most abundant?

I believe you are right about Marek underestimating Uthyr's magic potential. Do you consider that Jorum and Tieg died at the same time as Owain, attempting to protect him, or perhaps failing that, succeeding in protecting Uthyr and his wife and son, Nygel?

Your speculation is intriguing. I presume much is left open by KK so that she could some day fill in the gaps with a grand novel.

Non-the-less a little fan-fic story on your part, drakensis, would be fascinating.

Offline revanne

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2017, 04:14:31 pm »

 With the Ainslies and Drummonds present at court and the male line renaming themselves MacAthans it seems that this may be the period that the period of them using hidden strongholds ends and the Camberian faction henceforth are hiding in plain sight as ostensibly human families.


I am fascinated by the unrecorded years between the death of King Javan and the events of The Bastard Prince. Something is said somewhere in a conversation between Joram and Queron, which I cannot now locate, which led me to wonder whether it was in those years that the secret location of St Kyriell's was founded.

Rhys Michael is, still, as far as anyone knows, the headstrong Prince whose marriage enabled the betraying of his brother to his death and is entirely the puppet of the Regents. His personal grief at Javan's death would not necessarily be known. If it is in this atmosphere, where the hopes of the Deryni have been crushed once again due to a Haldane Prince, that the Servants of St Camber find their refuge, then that would explain, at least in part, the hostility to his Haldane status experienced by Kelson when he and Dhugal encounter the hidden community.

So maybe... Joram and Queron were responsible for a double approach. Hiding in plain sight, yes, but also with the Servants of St Camber living a secret existence. The Codex tells us that the date of Queron's death is not recorded only that he wore himself out in the service of others in the plague season and thus died. It is possible, then, that both he and Joram died in a time of trauma - even possibly both in 948- and that the secret of St Kyriell's died with them, whether intentionally or not.
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