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Author Topic: The King's Deryni  (Read 29764 times)

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Offline Evie

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2014, 01:14:44 pm »
I think this book was meant for us fans. It ties in a lot of who is who... and what happened when... stories that we all had questions about. (Ok! Except for the biggest question ever! Which I can not believe KK still left dangling-- tying Alaric to Camber--!!!!  Well I do hope we discovered the correct answer to that question, anyway.)

I think whatever connection it was that KK discovered between Camber and Alaric, she later forgot, since the question came up again in a chat earlier this year, I think, and IIRC she said that she did not know whether Alaric was descended from Camber or not.  So unless Rob Reginald had some note about that connection in his files that is yet to be rediscovered when KK acquires them, I think your guess about his Camberian lineage is probably as good as anyone else's.
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Offline bronwynevaine

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2014, 03:48:02 pm »
I don't even have it yet  :'( Maybe if I bribe my way on to the "nice" list...
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Offline tenworld

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2014, 02:45:54 pm »
I think whatever connection it was that KK discovered between Camber and Alaric, she later forgot, since the question came up again in a chat earlier this year, I think, and IIRC she said that she did not know whether Alaric was descended from Camber or not.  So unless Rob Reginald had some note about that connection in his files that is yet to be rediscovered when KK acquires them, I think your guess about his Camberian lineage is probably as good as anyone else's.

I think the best clue is that Duncan & Alaric are the two facets of Camber: The deeply religious servant and the kingmaker warrior.

Can we hope for one last book that explains the events of 948 AND the lineage?

Offline DesertRose

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2014, 02:59:59 pm »
I think whatever connection it was that KK discovered between Camber and Alaric, she later forgot, since the question came up again in a chat earlier this year, I think, and IIRC she said that she did not know whether Alaric was descended from Camber or not.  So unless Rob Reginald had some note about that connection in his files that is yet to be rediscovered when KK acquires them, I think your guess about his Camberian lineage is probably as good as anyone else's.

It seems like I remember her saying that in the process of (procrastinating about) writing "The Knighting of Derry," she drew up genealogical charts that indicated that both Alaric and Duncan are descended from Rhys and Evaine (and therefore Camber, of course), but I recall her saying in chat that she'd lost the papers on which she'd written said charts.

It suggests to me that Vera and Alyce were descended from Camber, but I guess we'll never know unless St. Camber intervenes and finds those lost papers.

Can we blame the Regents and the Custodes for her losing the papers?  Or maybe Teymuraz stole them?  :D
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Offline Shiral

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2014, 03:06:46 pm »
Has to have been Teymuraz.  ::)
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Offline drakensis

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2014, 03:46:06 pm »
Well the best theory established from the Deryni Codex is that Alaric and Duncan are both descended of Rhys & Evaine's grand-daughter who married a Duke of Cassan.

It's not definite - we know from Bishop's Heir Morgan is descended from a Duke of Cassan but his grasp of Morgan genealogy isn't the most reliable - but if so, Morgan's paternal grandmother Madonna and Duncan's paternal grandfather Andrew were siblings and their mother's paternal great-grandfather was married to Tiphane Ainslie, who's listed as Rhysel's daughter. It's possible that said marriage didn't produce the children (Nerina and Fane) whose respective descendants married to produce Madonna and Andrew, but if it did, that's a genuine line of descent.

Chances are good that no one in the 11 Kingdoms can put that together since Rhysel almost certainly married under a false name.

Offline Laurna

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2014, 11:03:38 pm »
Quote
I think the best clue is that Duncan & Alaric are the two facets of Camber: The deeply religious servant and the kingmaker warrior.
That is an interesting perspective. Although, Duncan and Alaric were originated years before Camber, therefore the correlation in the beginning was likely not deliberate. However, by the third series, the Bishops Heir, I can see where the associations can be made.

Quote
Well the best theory established from the Deryni Codex is that Alaric and Duncan are both descended of Rhys & Evaine's grand-daughter who married a Duke of Cassan.
Drakensis, I am strongly in an accordance with you, and I do think that together we have proved the lineage. I was wondering if we should start a separate topic that just posts all the lineages of all the family lines that have been discovered to date. As where they currently are might be hard to find for new comers to the forum.

Of course, as an aside, I added a fan fiction lineage that I believe is quite plausible, but I will try to refrain from referring to that line in the Codex Topics.
(But don't you think it would be a wonderful dream come true if there was a fan fiction Codex for all the characters that everyone has developed over the years.  ;D )

Offline lenni

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2014, 12:03:27 am »
I think the best clue is that Duncan & Alaric are the two facets of Camber: The deeply religious servant and the kingmaker warrior.
I LIKE IT! Good thought, tenworld. Thanks for sharing it. :-)

Can we hope for one last book that explains the events of 948 AND the lineage?
From your mouth to God's ear!

Offline drakensis

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2014, 03:48:36 am »
Of course, as an aside, I added a fan fiction lineage that I believe is quite plausible, but I will try to refrain from referring to that line in the Codex Topics.
I liked that lineage too - it neatly explained Morgan and Duncan.

Those two are a powerful combination, to my mind. Alaric's name (from the gothic 'all-ruler') blond hair indicating his ties to the 'germanic'* Deryni of the east (See also the blonde Charissa, and blond MacRories), Duncan's name (from gaelic 'brown warrior') and darker hair more indicating the 'celtic' Deryni of the west.

The names may seem counter-intuitive - Alaric hardly rules everything while Duncan is a priest before he's a warrior - but Alaric's also very self-controlled: he rules himself and I think in his relationship with Richenda we see he has his scholarly side. So Alaric's name may not signify temporal rule as magical rule.

And Duncan, in his own way, is a warrior. Not just as a soldier but in the much harder battle of winning people over to accept Deryni. Alaric survived as an outed Deryni but he doesn't seem to have really tried to change people's minds - in fact he played up the sinister reputation for his own needs. Duncan, on the other hand, has led the way** in actively trying to change perceptions and to make Deryni acceptable to Gwynedd and the Church, 'fighting' for hearts and minds.

* Although many sources describe Gwynedd as culturally similar to the British Isles and states like Bremagne and the Forcinns as representative of France and Spain, that strikes me as potentially mis-leading, implying the Southern Sea is something like the English Channel in what it divides geographically and culturally. It's seems to me to actually be further south in both respects, functioning as more of a divide between the northern 'Norman/Frankish' and southern 'Provencal' parts of what we now call France. Gwynedd's certainly like the British in being a point where germanic influences (Halbert the Dane) collided with the existing Celtic fringe (surviving in Meara, Connait, Howicce & Llannedd) and the lost provinces of a mediterranean civilisation (the Byzantiun Empire).
And I've gone wildly off-topic there.
** Denis Arilan seems to have been more inclined to work around those perceptions and remain in secret. I haven't found anything esoteric in his name... although Denis is originally a form of Dionysos - the greek god of wine and revelry. Make of that what you will.

Offline Evie

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2014, 05:14:02 pm »
Denis's name may be a nod to Saint Denis, the martyred 3rd Century Bishop of Paris, who is said to have been beheaded by pagan priests who were alarmed by the large numbers of converts to Christianity under Denis's leadership. As a result of this, Denis and two others were put to death by beheading. Whereupon, so the story goes, Denis simply picked up his head and continued preaching, continuing down the road for another six miles or so until his body finally fell over, dead.  Now if there's anyone I can picture being too stubborn to shut up and die in the Deryni universe, it would be Denis Arilan. LOL! ;D
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Offline tenworld

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2014, 05:29:46 pm »
The Hebrew word for lion is 'ari' (I got that from Exodus). an educated guess could be Ari-elan as the source.

Offline derynifanatic64

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2014, 05:39:27 pm »
I just bought it today!!
We will never forget the events of 9-11!!  USA!! USA!!

Offline Evie

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2014, 05:53:36 pm »
Arilan is also a Welsh name, though. I ran into that (and the Tre- prefix for Tre-Arilan) when doing some research on Welsh names a year or two ago.
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Offline Braniana

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2014, 10:50:01 pm »
Blazed through my first read of the book right after I got it but probably won't have time to do another reading until I start my holiday break next week, so I'm a little fuzzy on some of the stuff I read a week or two ago.

Alaric did annoy me a few times during this book.  Either he's super mature and capable for his age, or he's acting like an immature child.  Seemed to me that there was a bit more repetitiveness of events and revelations in this book that I remember seeing in most/all of the other books.  And at times it did seem like too much was being put into this one book.  Might have been better to split off some of this material and make another book with it and some of these other things that I still have questions about:

I guess most of all, my initial feel of the book is "incomplete"--and it's almost incredible that I can say that about a book that was 550-ish pages long.  There are just so many unanswered questions that I really feel like another book is needed to tie call these threads up.  Like why Se did what he did (and why he later isn't around to complete Alaric's training as was planned).  I'd like to "see" how Caitrin changes from the new bride who met Brion to the old woman whom Kelson meets.  Even Brion's Mearan war (though since we've seen Donal's and Kelson's wars there already, it might be a tad repetitive)--with a fleshed-out telling of Duncan and Maryse's story, and poor Jamyl Arilan's death (and how Denis learned about the council).  How Court and Queen react to the first appearance of the new Duke Alaric.  Alaric's relationship with toddler/child Kelson.  We saw in a short story how Arilan secretly became a Deryni priest, but how did Duncan manage it? Not that I won't enjoy the 948 book that's been discussed or one about Killingford, but I'd also really love to see one more book covering the little gap that still remains in this part of the timeline.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 11:05:33 pm by Braniana »

Offline bh1971

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Re: The King's Deryni
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2014, 01:08:56 pm »
I have been reading the Deryni books since the 1980ís, and I did post on the newgroups, years back. Itís been a while since read any of the books, until now. Here is my first post.

Maybe I should give a spoiler alert!



The Kingís Deryni was wonderful. I finished it a few days ago, and I am still thinking about it. There are a few mysteries that are unanswered. Sir Se and the order that he belongs to (the Knights of the Anvil), who are they? I mean that at a deeper level, not the name. They seem to be more powerful and capable then the Camberian Council. The council itself, we see very little of them, only once, as a whole, with frequent contacts between Jamyl Arilan and Stefan Coram (who seems to be quite a bit of a cranky person). I thought we would see more of them, especially at the end, when Hogan Gwernach and Rhydon were causing problems. There was nothing about that intrigue. I guess, we would need a bigger book!

I think the Codex needs to be updated as well. There are Kingís sisters, Vera, and of course Alaricís and Brionís first meeting. I donít want spoil this by going into too much details.

I canít believe itís been 8 years since the last novel. I hope we get the next one sooner than that.

 


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