The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

FanFiction => Evie's FanFic => The Demoiselle and Derry => Topic started by: Evie on August 10, 2010, 08:31:36 pm

Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 10, 2010, 08:31:36 pm
Chapter Seven


   The household at Chervignon, dressed in full livery, awaited their Duke’s arrival in the Hall.   Hassan flew in from the stables, taking a few moments to catch his breath before announcing that the Ducal Party had just arrived, although Celsie and Master Derwin had already known, having seen their approach from an upstairs window.  Derwin thanked the lad then sent him out the back way so he could compose himself before returning to the stables to assist with the horses.

   The mistress of Chervignon went to the entry porch to greet her overlord, her steward following a discreet couple of steps behind.  Alaric Morgan made his leisurely way from stable courtyard to manor house, his keen gray eyes taking in recent repairs and other changes that had been made to the property since his last visit.  At last his gaze flitted down from the rooftops to the Hall’s entrance, catching Celsie’s eyes, and he smiled.

   Celsie swept the Duke of Corwyn a low, graceful curtsey.  Behind her, Master Derwin gave an even more deferential bow.  As they straightened, Celsie caught the eye of the smiling man behind the Duke. 

   Derry.

   Her face blossomed with smiles.  Alaric, noticing the transformation and also the cause for it, chuckled as the Earl of Derry approached to greet the demoiselle with a courtly bow of his own, bending over her hand to kiss it perhaps just a touch more lingeringly than was his customary wont, his blue eyes sparkling with mischief.

   “That will be quite enough of that, Derry,” Alaric joked.  “The demoiselle of Chervignon is still under my protection.”  A surreptitious wink at their hostess caused her to stifle a laugh.

   “My Lords, please accept the hospitality of my house.  If it please Your Grace, my staff have prepared a small repast for you and your party in the Hall…or would you prefer to freshen up a bit beforehand?”

    “Just a little, though we are quite hungry,” the Duke assured her. 

   “Master Derwin, would you show our guests to the chambers made ready for them?”  Celsie’s gaze swept the later arrivals approaching behind the Duke and the Earl.  “Will Her Grace be coming along shortly?” she asked.

    Alaric shook his head.  “I’m afraid Grania has come down with a summer cold, and was feeling fretful.  Richenda didn’t wish to leave her in the nursery’s care, under the circumstances.”  He gave Celsie a reassuring smile as the demoiselle began to look alarmed.  “Oh, she’s fine.  Just very cranky.  I can’t imagine where she gets that from.  I’m never out of sorts.”  Behind him, his lieutenant stifled a none too polite snort, and Celsie suppressed a grin.

   “Of course not, Your Grace.”  She took a step back, waving her guests towards the steward awaiting them at the entrance to the stairs.  “If you’d like to follow Master Derwin, he’ll see to your comfort while the kitchen staff makes ready for your meal.”

#

   The manor's guests were offered baths and fed, and shown around the manorial lands to see the improvements made since the Duke's last visit.  At last the small party made its way back to the manor house, 

   In the meantime, Celsie's maidservants finished their preparations for her trip to Derry, packing clothing and other personal possessions, a small hamper of food, and a coffer containing gifts Celsie had made for the Earl's family.  Three of her maids would be traveling with their mistress and the Ducal retinue to Derry’s lands in the morning, to ensure she had female companionship and chaperonage.

   The Duke caught Derry’s eye as they re-entered the manor house together.  He gave his liegeman a faint nod, then turned away, following Master Derwin as the steward led him down to the cellars to discuss the improvements made below stairs. 

   “Celsie, might I have a private word with you?” Derry asked, steering her towards an open door just off the Great Hall.  It turned out to be the entrance to a short passage leading from the head of the hall to Chervignon’s small chapel.

   One of the demoiselle’s maidservants followed uncertainly behind.  Celsie turned to whisper to the young woman.  After a moment, the maidservant bobbed an obedient curtsey and remained at the chapel entrance, still within sight of the two who moved further into the chamber, towards the altar rail, but allowing them as much privacy as could be allowed under the circumstances.

   Derry looked around the tiny chapel with a slight smile on his face before returning his gaze to Celsie’s upturned face.  “Are you still in the habit of early Masses?”

   She laughed softly.  “Not as early as in Rhemuth, but yes, Father Bennet still serves Mass for the household every morning.”  She walked over to one side of the small room to light a candle.  “And there’s been many a prayer offered up for your reprobate soul here as well,” she teased.  “Oh, which reminds me!”  She reached into her bodice, withdrawing a small square of embroidered fabric.  “Your replacement handkerchief.”  She handed Derry the gift.  “Don’t worry; this one is quite safe.”

   “No love spells this time?” Derry asked with a wry smile.

   “Absolutely none!  Another charm of protection.”  She reached up to brush his sleeve with her hand.  “I’ll embroider a full undertunic for you like Alaric’s someday, but I need to take your measure first.”

   “Celsie,” Derry said, capturing her hands in his, “I have something for you as well.”  He kissed her fingertips then released both hands, fishing inside his doublet for a small scrap of silk, looking suddenly quite nervous as he drew it out, unfolding the tiny parcel to reveal what it contained.  “This ring belonged to my mother, and hers also.  The stones reminded me of your eyes, but if it doesn’t suit…that is, if you’d prefer something different….”  He halted as she smiled up at him and placed trembling fingertips to his lips.

   “It’s quite lovely, Sean.  May I dare to hope that this means you’ve been considering the ‘m’ word?”  Her lips twitched in an almost-grin.

   Sean Earl Derry chuckled ruefully at himself.  Dropping to one knee before the demoiselle of Chervignon, he took one of her hands and kissed it, slipping the ring onto her finger.  “Lady Celsie, would you do me the very great honor of marrying me and becoming my Countess?”

    Celsie laughed in delight, throwing her arms around Derry’s neck as he quickly braced to avoid being overbalanced by her eager assault.  “I absolutely do accept, especially since you’ve quite manfully managed to say the word ‘marry’ without choking!”

   He smiled sheepishly.  “Well, ‘merger’ sounds too businesslike.”  He sobered, gazing into her eyes.  “I don’t want a businesslike marriage, Celsie.”

    “Neither do I.”  She buried her face in his neck.  “I want laughter, and excitement, and comfort, and passion, and…oh, all the things I always feel when I’m with you!”

   He stood, drawing her close, enfolding her in a gentle embrace, lowering his lips to hers to impart a tender kiss.  After a few moments, the kiss deepened as the unofficially betrothed couple wordlessly sealed their decision. 

   A minute or so later, a cough sounded from the doorway.  Derry pulled back, expecting to be greeted by the maidservant’s reproving look.  Instead, he and Celsie saw Alaric lounging in the doorway, a faint grin on his face.

   “May I take it from the rapturous expression on my ward’s face that she found your proposal acceptable, or should I just call you out for attempting a seduction on consecrated ground?”

   Celsie laughed.  “Go easy on him, Alaric!  Sean just said the ‘marry’ word and he didn’t die.”

   A blond eyebrow rose.  “Oh?  Well, that calls for some leniency, then.”  His gray eyes twinkled at the couple.  “So, shall we head upstairs instead and work out the betrothal contract?”

   As the bridal couple and their liegelord worked out the finer details of the betrothal terms together, Master Derwin, having been quickly apprised of the Lady of Chervignon’s imminent change of status, swiftly consulted with the kitchen staff and other household members to put together a small celebratory feast, for all of the manorial household wished to extend hearty well-wishes and congratulations to the newly betrothed couple.  The demoiselle also gave her approval for a much larger celebration to be held later, after the hay harvest, to which all of the manor’s villeins and villagers would be invited.  That night the manor’s Great Hall rang with the sounds of music and merrymaking as the household rejoiced over the upcoming nuptials of Chervignon’s fair young demoiselle.

#

   The Ducal party set forth for Derry the following morn, this time with Lady Celsie and a handful of maidservants joining in their travels, stealing shy glances at the legendary Duke and the handsome Earl who was soon to become their new master.

   They arrived at Derry’s county seat just before noon.  The Duke had sent a messenger a few hours ahead of the rest of the party, so Derry’s household had been alerted to the party’s imminent arrival.  Countess Moira, the Dowager Countess of Derry, greeted her son’s guests graciously, her happy countenance wreathed with smiles of welcome, especially for the ladies among the party, for she had also received the news of the Earl’s betrothal by way of the Duke of Corwyn’s messenger.

    “Welcome to Derry!” she told Celsie, sweeping the younger woman into a warm embrace as soon as the demoiselle had dismounted from Aelfscine.  “I have been waiting for so long for Sean to bring home a bride.  Or at least a bride-to-be,” she corrected herself.  “And when is the wedding date?” the Dowager Countess added with a pointed look at her son.

    “Doubtless not soon enough for you, even if we wed tomorrow,” Derry joked.  “Patience, Mother!  Give Celsie a few hours to get acquainted with the place before you throw us into the chapel together and bar the doors from the outside.”

   The Dowager Countess rolled her eyes at Celsie.  “If I thought that would work, I’d be half tempted.”  She favored her future daughter-in-law with an engaging grin that reminded Celsie of her son’s.  “Come, let me show you and your maids upstairs to your chambers so you can get settled in.”

#

   It was the work of two long weeks of labor in the Dowager Countess’s solar to make the final preparations for the wedding of the Earl of Derry to the demoiselle of Chervignon, the hours engaged in making fripperies for the future Countess and her bridal party and in decorating both Great Hall and chapel, for now that Countess Moira had a wedding in sight for her son, she would brook no delay in the upcoming marriage.  In the time not spent sewing, embroidering, and becoming better acquainted with one another, the Dowager Countess gradually introduced Celsie to the Derry household and accounts, and was pleasantly surprised by the demoiselle’s quick grasp of the latter.

   “Won’t you be staying on with us here at Derry once Sean and I marry?” Celsie asked her one evening, after the Countess casually mentioned her intention to travel once the newlywed couple had settled into their honey-month. 

    “Oh, I’m certain I shall return here every now and again,” the Countess assured her.  “I shall want to spoil my son’s heirs, you know.”  She smiled.  “But I’ve wished to visit my brother Trevor for some time, and have had little opportunity to do so of late, and from Varagh I’m hoping to visit my daughters Elsavere and Elspeth and their families.  And the Duchess of Corwyn has welcomed me back for another visit to Coroth once I’m free of my obligations here.  I do so long to see how much her children have grown since I was there last!  At any rate, I firmly believe a newlywed couple should have some time to themselves to settle into marriage.”  With a twinkle in her eye, she added, “And to get an heir.  I’m quite certain Sean would prefer to do his duty to his Earldom without his mother’s supervision and well-meant advice.”

    Celsie laughed, her cheeks flushing pink.  Countess Moira smiled.  “And more to the point, dear,” the Dowager Countess added, “you need to establish yourself in the household as the new Countess of Derry.  My time as Derry’s Countess has come and gone, but if you wish the staff to become fully answerable to you, then I need to leave the household at least for a time, so they can grow used to looking to you for direction and not to me.  I would do you no great service by staying.”

#

   The happy day finally arrived, the days immediately preceding it bringing a steady influx of visitors to Derry’s Court.  Duchess Richenda at long last made her way to Derry with her retinue, her younger children all having weathered their summer colds without further mishap or complications, and deemed sufficiently recovered to remain with their nurses during their mother’s short absence.  Young Brendan, on the other hand, was deemed old enough to accompany his mother, representing the Earldom of Marley in celebrating the union of Derry and Chervignon, and Briony had insisted on attending her ‘Uncle Seandry’s’ wedding.  The Earl of Derry was quietly amused by the numerous covertly wistful glances the star-struck young Marley kept directing towards his blissfully oblivious bride-to-be.

   Other visitors covered greater distances to be present at the nuptials.  Celsie’s heart-sisters from her days at Rhemuth’s Court arrived, one after the other.  Lady Sophie and Sir Seisyll arrived first, bringing with them glad tidings of the recent births of the Princesses Araxandra and Rhuÿs.  Snug in her father’s arms travelled a dark-haired, blue-violet eyed beauty, Stefania de Arilan, her toddler eyes bright with curiosity as she allowed herself to be drawn into her “Tante” Celsie’s welcoming embrace.  A slight bump in Lady Sophie’s otherwise still slender silhouette hinted at another Arilan in the making, one which—Sophie later informed Celsie—the Arilans had already sensed would be Seisyll’s future heir.

   Sir Jass and Lady Ailidh arrived a couple of days later, just barely in time for the coming day’s wedding, having set forth from Transha almost as soon as they’d received the news of Celsie’s upcoming marriage.  With them travelled their heir, young Ciarán Dhugal MacArdry, who quickly found much mischief to get into with the somewhat more tentative Stefania Arilan, much to their mothers’ dismay.  Sir Jass soon took both toddlers in hand, swinging each over a brawny shoulder to carry them outside to a courtyard where they could run off their boundless energies and get into even more father-approved and instigated mischief, so that Ailidh would have her hands free to tend to their infant daughter Aine Rose.

   The Contessa Constanza diplomatically sent her regrets, wishing the bridal couple every happiness but informing them of her own quite recent remarriage, much to Celsie’s quiet relief.  As a token of her esteem for the newlyweds, she sent a mare nearly equal to Seandry’s magnificence for the Derry stables.  After briefly entertaining the notions of naming the fine beast either “Constanza” or “Celeste,” the Earl chose the better part of discretion and ambiguity and named her “Countess” instead.  He had no wish to die at his new bride’s hands before siring an heir.

#

   The celebrant for the wedding Mass was Derry’s chaplain, a young priest close to the Earl’s age who jokingly confessed to Celsie beforehand that he’d half expected to grow old and gray before being asked to perform this particular office for the Earl.  The chapel was redolent with the perfume of roses, for the ladies had gathered the early summer blooms to decorate both chapel and bridal bower.  Even little Briony had assisted in this, lending nimble fingers to the weaving of rose garlands once Duchess Richenda had divested the woody stems of thorns that might prick tender flesh.

   Once the vows had been exchanged and the Mass celebrated, the wedding guests retreated to the feast awaiting them in Derry’s Great Hall, toasting the Earl and his new Countess and serenading them with ballad after increasingly bawdier ballad.   After the last remove had been enjoyed and a final toast had been raised, the ladies ushered Celsie upstairs to the bridal bower, their voices uplifted in more traditional wedding songs.  The men, on the other hand, took a brief detour en route to the bed-chamber, for Sir Seisyll had told Alaric of the Nyford custom of betrothal dunkings the night before during the pre-nuptial revelry the men had enjoyed in celebrating Derry’s final night of bachelorhood.  Derry, suspecting a plot was afoot, had neatly evaded most of the conspirators during the earlier part of the day, but it was widely agreed that Derry would not be needing to spend the rest of the evening clothed, now that he was newly-married, so surely his new bride would appreciate a freshly cleansed—or at least freshly watered—bridegroom.   Besides, no one wished the ardent bridegroom to faint in the summer heat.  Thus it was that the Earl found himself being carried aloft on several sets of strong shoulders and pitched headlong into a nearby spring before the men finally conveyed him to his bride.  The ladies, watching from the bedchamber windows, were convulsed in giggles by the time the sodden Derry was sung to his bride’s side in manly voices more enthusiastic than in proper tune.

   The priest, suppressing his own smirk and flicking a few drops of fresh spring water off his stole, blessed the bed once Derry had divested himself of his soaked clothing behind the screen and slid under the sheets beside Celsie, who let out a shriek of laughter as his now ice cold flesh encountered her warm form. 

   After the Dowager Countess Moira jokingly suggested another brief prayer for circulation to return swiftly to her son’s extremities, for Derry was in great need of an heir, the wedding guests sang one more bridal song and then departed for the evening.

#

   “You look like you’ve already visited the bathchamber,” Celsie remarked.  “Tell me they didn’t toss in my father’s lute after you!”

   “Come warm me, woman,” Derry said, only half joking as he pulled his new bride into his arms, laughing into her neck as she squealed and pushed him away. 

   “I’ve waited nearly four years for you; I think I can wait another five minutes while you warm by the fire!” Celsie yelped as she slid out of bed, pulling her new husband with her towards the hearth. 

    “Now, this brings back memories,” he told her.  “All we need is a rainstorm outside.  By the way, did you know I can see straight through that silk?”  He gave her gowned form an appreciative once-over.

   “At least it’s dry.”

   “Not for much longer,” Derry corrected, pulling her into a rather damp embrace.  After a few more moments, she forgot to protest as she found herself besieged by an ardent husband obviously warming up to the task at hand.

   “Rug’s dry, too,” she whispered after a few minutes, once she managed to pull free long enough to speak.  “Probably drier than the sheets,” she added, tousling his soggy curls.

   “There’s a thought,” he replied, pulling her down onto the soft fur beneath their feet.  “Tell me you’re not sleeping with your rosary tonight!”

   “It’s retired until the morn—“

   Her long-awaited bridegroom’s kisses muffled what remained of her answer.

Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 10, 2010, 09:40:17 pm
(Whistles the tune of a certain rockanthem.)  ;D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 10, 2010, 09:49:40 pm
I knew I could depend on you.   ;)
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 10, 2010, 10:08:47 pm
All's well that ends well!   :)

Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: kirienne on August 10, 2010, 10:18:47 pm
Yippeeee, Derry finally has a wife, and one I've come to know and like immensly. Thanks for this happy chapter.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 10, 2010, 10:24:05 pm
Now let's just hope he doesn't die from a chill from that wedding night dunking!   :D

(Just kidding!  I wouldn't do that to Derry...not before inflicting a bunch of beautiful daughters on him first.  Muahahaha!   ;)  )
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: AnnieUK on August 11, 2010, 03:54:22 am
And what a very sensible MIL Celsie has in Moira. :)
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 11, 2010, 09:19:25 am
If Celsie has to live with her at least part of the year, I wanted to give her one she could easily live with.   :D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 11, 2010, 02:52:27 pm
If Celsie has to live with her at least part of the year, I wanted to give her one she could easily live with.   :D

Doesn't Derry Manor have a Dower House?
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 11, 2010, 03:04:51 pm
It may have, or at least a separate section of the home reserved for the Dowager Countess.  But I would imagine she'd welcome the opportunity to travel and visit family now that Sean is back in residence for a while and she has the freedom to do so even when he's not (since Celsie would presumably be available to hold down the fort now during Derry's absences).  I'm sure there'll still be times when she returns to Derry, though, especially once the grandchildren are born, or if Sean and Celsie both need to be elsewhere at the same time.

Besides which, if a MIL's personality is completely incompatible with her son's wife's, trust me, it wouldn't matter if she lived under the same roof or in a separate house, it would still be really uncomfortable for both of them if they were anywhere in the same vicinity.  But with cordial relations between both, it won't matter quite as much if Moira spends some of her time in the same manor house or in a separate residence while visiting Derry.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 11, 2010, 10:47:22 pm
But Celsie has her own domain to manage.  The impression I get was that they were not that far apart, but they weren't exactly next door either.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 11, 2010, 11:25:33 pm
But Celsie has her own domain to manage.  The impression I get was that they were not that far apart, but they weren't exactly next door either.
Not sure what you're getting at here, Elkhound.

As Countess, Celsie will be expected to live with her husband at the Earl's home in Derry, not at her own manor at Chervington.   Look at Richenda: she is the Dowager Countess of Marley and also Regent, but she lives with Alaric in Coroth, not up in Marley.

So Celsie will live at Derry and manage Chervington from a distance, which is exactly what she's been doing anyway during her time in Andelon.  As you say, Derry and Chervington are quite close, so she can easily visit if she has to.  And Celsie and her husband may want a quiet and romantic retreat at times!  :)

Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 11, 2010, 11:28:43 pm
Yes.  Chervignon would, in essence, be like a second home.  Celsie might sometimes be in residence there, but not always.  It's not all that different from Dhugal and his responsibilities towards Cassan, Kierney, and Transha.  He certainly can't be in all three places at once, and in Rhemuth as well, but he would be sure to spend some of his time in each to attend to matters that require his direct attention, delegate what things he could, and do some of his work "long-distance" as required.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Gyrfalcon64207 on August 11, 2010, 11:38:35 pm
Besides, doesn't Celsie have a portal at Chervignon?  All she has to do is get some friends together and put one in at Derry too, and then there wouldn't be any trouble with having split responsibilities.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 11, 2010, 11:43:06 pm
LOL!  Well, there is that.  "Darling, if you can spare me for a couple of hours, I need to pop over to Chervignon and deal with something.  I'll be back home by supper."

I think before she installs one in Derry, though, her Duke might drag her by one ear, kicking and screaming if need be, to Coroth so she can summon up the same circle of friends to install one there.  And if he doesn't, Alkari will!   ;D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 12, 2010, 12:10:01 am
Actually, I don't think it is quite as simple as that to install Transfer Portals.  It's a lot more than just "gather a few Deryni friends, have a party and install a Portal".   The process seems to require a great deal of power (look at how many were required for Arilan's portal in HD) plus skill, and also the knowledge of 'how' to construct a Portal.   Most Deryni probably wouldn't have either the knowledge or skills to do it.

Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 10:09:06 am
Well, true, but presumably if she had friends skilled enough to install one in Chervignon in the first place, they wouldn't have suddenly lost that knowledge if Alaric were to call upon them to install one in Coroth as well.  The real question would be, would Alaric be willing to have them do so, considering anyone with the skills necessary to create a TP in Coroth would also, after the fact, be completely familiar with its coordinates and presumably able to pop in and out at will?  (Unless, of course, he sets up further protections around it.)  He'd probably want to delegate the task to someone who both has the skill and who he trusts completely, which may or may not be the same circle of friends Constanza called upon when she built the one in Chervignon.

I don't think the knowledge is as specialized as, say, healing though.  I.E., there's no evidence from the books that one has to be genetically "hardwired" to be able to express that trait, so any Deryni who has enough formal training would probably be taught the skill at some point.  Otherwise it would have died out long since, and it's doubtful there'd have ever been many residential Transfer Portals such as the ones in Tre-Arilan or the MacRories' residences, yet Deryni Magic mentions private residences of Deryni as being logical places to find Transfer Portals, whether active or inactive due to having been forgotten and/or unused.  There could well be Transfer Portals in other Deryni homes throughout Gwynedd, including in Corwyn itself if it's served as a refuge for Deryni families over the years.  If so, it's doubtful they'd go around publicizing the fact.  If you were a member of a persecuted and technically illegal population, would you officially register your secret Transfer Portal, even to a Duke who is one of your own kind?  What he doesn't know about can't get you or him into trouble with the Deryni-hunting Church of Gwynedd.   :D   Plus, they've probably been set ablaze or otherwise ruined or disabled through disuse throughout the years of Deryni persecution, as families with the trait were discovered, burned at the stake, and their properties either burned, torn down, or given to human families.  Plus, a TP is useless unless you know another location to TP to, so even a Deryni family in hiding might have their TP go inactive because they don't have a clue who the other Deryni families are, much less what their TP coordinates are.  Sir Stefan could well have such a TP somewhere on the grounds of Kestrel Mote, and even be vaguely awere of where it is ("Oh yeah, that strange cobblestone in the barn that tingles!"), but unless he was ever shown how to use it or where it could take him, he might as well not have one at all.  Would a man as paranoid of being found out as Sir Ranulf was have taught his family how to use a Transfer Portal if he knew of one at his manor? Doubtful.  Or at best, he'd have shown them only so they could use it escape Kestrel Mote at dire need, showing them whatever other secret TP location his own father may have passed down to him for such a contingency, but forbidden them to use it otherwise.

So would it take skill and training to build one?  Sure, and granted, that's a bit hard to find west of Coroth due to Deryni having to live underground for two centuries.  Is it a nearly lost art, or one so rare only a handful of Deryni could do it?  I really don't see evidence for that in the books.  We only know of a handful of specific locations, but that's because those are the only ones that were relevant to the story KK was telling, not because those are the only locations that exist, or because of a limited number of Deryni capable of building them.  Even someone like Sofiana probably knows only a handful of TP locations at best, since people would tend to keep such information secret from all but their closest friends.  (Would you want just anyone being able to pop into your house at any time?  Heck, as much as I love my family, I still wouldn't want even my own mom to be able to just pop into my house without notice except in case of dire emergency!  What if the house was a wreck?  If I was in the shower?  If the DH and I were having an intimate moment mere meters away?   :D) 

From Arilan's working in HD, it appears the main factors involved in building one would be the knowledge of how to create the Portal plus having enough assistance to draw upon (preferably Deryni) for the massive amounts of energy needed for the working.  Oh, and it needs to be set in rock or earth of some sort, not just on any surface.  A plank floor wouldn't do.  But Arilan built one in a battlefield pavilion on bare ground, with assistance from people who didn't have previous knowledge of how to build one themselves.  He wasn't born with that knowledge; someone would've trained him.  And presumably whoever trained him also trained others.  I imagine it would be considered fairly standard, if a bit advanced, training for a formally trained Deryni (i.e, not something a Deryni child or even possibly an adolescent would know, but definitely something Alyce would've gotten around to teaching her son eventually, or found someone else to teach him, if she'd survived to his adulthood), but there's certainly no dearth of trained Deryni in the lands east of Gwynedd where they've not been torched on a regular basis for two centuries.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 12, 2010, 11:19:29 am
But Celsie has her own domain to manage.  The impression I get was that they were not that far apart, but they weren't exactly next door either.
Not sure what you're getting at here, Elkhound.

There are so many stories of domains put into the charge of a steward with the Lord or Lady absent, and the steward either running it into the ground or getting to think that he wants it for himself, and taking steps towards that end.  Although I like the Celsie/Derry pairing, I am nervous about her jumping into marriage before getting her domain firmly under her thumb.  She's been an absentee or part-time lady for so long, I'd much rather that the staff and the residents get the idea that Her Ladyship is very much in residency and very much in charge, and very, very competent, and quite capable of dealing with anyone who is getting too big for his britches so that when she does finally marry and move to her husband's domain her new steward won't get any bright ideas.  Indeed, although I like the Derry/Celsie pairing on a personal level, the more I think about it from a political and economic point of view I'd be a lot happier seeing her paired with a younger son or even a bastard (in the technical sense; it is possible for someone to be a bastard and a perfectly nice person), who can be only her consort, so she won't have divided responsibilities.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 01:06:54 pm
"Unto Archbishops Cardiel and Bradene doth Celeste de Chervignon O'Flynn, Countess of Derry and Lady of Chervignon, send respectful greetings.  Pray, Your Eminences, grant me a writ of divorcement or annulment of my marriage vows on the grounds of mild inconvenience...."   Nope, not seeing it happening.   :D

OK, taking a look at the two woefully inadequate maps of the area to be found in the Codex, combined with the much prettier but somewhat contradictory (to the Codex) map to be found at http://www.mackenzieshaven.com/Images/RPGs/Gwynedd-Deryni/gwynedd.jpg (http://www.mackenzieshaven.com/Images/RPGs/Gwynedd-Deryni/gwynedd.jpg) (only a few key locations show up in both places, and the freaking rivers don't match up!!!!, but the online map matches my vague memories of the old book maps better), it would appear that the Earldom of Derry is located in the mountain range just north of Coroth.  The southernmost part of that range, even, since if one were to draw a line straight across from some key cities like Dhassa or Valoret, it's south of both of those.  Close to Jennan Vale or Kingslake, perhaps, but south of Medras.  And that makes sense, since I imagine part of Alaric's reason for choosing Derry as his lieutenant would be that it would be relatively convenient for him to be in Coroth frequently, and to be able to do so without neglecting his own lands.

Now, I picture Chervignon to be just west of that area, in that plains area to the north-northwest of Coroth.  And not all that far out either--in Celsie's intro story, she was able to ride to Coroth in a bit over an hour, though granted she was riding for her life the entire way, as fast as her horse could carry her without having a coronary.  But even so, my guess is that this places Chervignon somewhere in the lowlands area near or in Jennan Vale.  (Probably a good thing no one was aware of her Deryni origins yet when Warin de Gray was stirring up trouble!)

So what this means, in practical terms, is that even riding at a leisurely pace, Celsie's commute between Derry and Chervignon is probably no greater than my daily commute to my office (45 minutes each way).  But let's stretch that to an hour or even an hour and a half, since Derry is in mountain country.  Even so, she'd be able to be "in residence" at Chervignon quite regularly, perhaps even starting out with 3 days in Chervignon to every 4 days in Derry, until she was entirely certain that her household staff was completely familiar with her and loyal.  And if she had any reason to suspect them at all, it's quite easy to pop by and check at random moments.  Especially if, as Gyrfalcon mentioned, she ends up installing a Transfer Portal at Derry as well.  In that case, the 40 min to 1.5 hour "commute" suddenly becomes more like 15 seconds.  I want to meet the steward who would get away with much with a manorial Lady only 15 seconds away at any time!  The only reason her former steward got away with as much as he did for two years was that 1) Alaric was across the kingdom for much of that time, and 2) Alaric had no reason to assume the man wasn't as honest as his father who had held the job before him, and 3) he was skilled enough at cooking the books that someone who wasn't on the manor regularly wouldn't spot the discrepencies.  Celsie would, at worst, be by Chervignon at least weekly while in residence at Derry, would also spend some time with her new husband in residence at Chervignon, and as for the occasional trip to Coroth or Rhemuth--well, if she can't trust her steward and household for those absences, she can't trust them for any, and Derry would have exactly the same potential problem with his own.  That's why, when they replaced her staff, they took the proper care in the first place!
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 12, 2010, 02:07:03 pm
Well, you seem to have worked it out.  And as was pointed out if she were to get a portal installed at Derry, it would make things even easier.  And the fact that the staff knows that she can truth-read will probably keep them from getting into any jiggery-pokery.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 12, 2010, 02:15:37 pm
From Arilan's working in HD, it appears the main factors involved in building one would be the knowledge of how to create the Portal plus having enough assistance to draw upon (preferably Deryni) for the massive amounts of energy needed for the working.  Oh, and it needs to be set in rock or earth of some sort, not just on any surface.  A plank floor wouldn't do.  But Arilan built one in a battlefield pavilion on bare ground, with assistance from people who didn't have previous knowledge of how to build one themselves.  He wasn't born with that knowledge; someone would've trained him.  And presumably whoever trained him also trained others.  I imagine it would be considered fairly standard, if a bit advanced, training for a formally trained Deryni (i.e, not something a Deryni child or even possibly an adolescent would know, but definitely something Alyce would've gotten around to teaching her son eventually, or found someone else to teach him, if she'd survived to his adulthood), but there's certainly no dearth of trained Deryni in the lands east of Gwynedd where they've not been torched on a regular basis for two centuries.

In one of the books, someone is asked if someone else could construct a portal on his own, and the answer was, "Nay, few could."  Which implies that some can.  And when Arilan made the portal, the rest of the team seemed mostly to be sources of energy rather than actually having to do much of anything; and he was able to use at least one human (Warin) as a power source.  So if Celsie knows how, all she needs is a sufficiently large number of Deryni (with perhaps a human or two as makeweight).   And who knows?  There might be a portal at Coroth or Derry already.  For Coroth, considering that the Ducal family is Deryni, almost certainly--although its location seems to have been forgotten.  How long has Sean's family been holding Derry?  Were the previous holders Deyrni?
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 02:42:47 pm
From the Codex, it would appear that Derry has been in human hands (the O'Flynn family) since the year 953, and the founder of the line was Lord Flynn Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, the second son of an earlier Duke of Cassan.  We already know that the Dukes of Cassan, up until Duncan, that is, were human as well.  And this would presumably be a different branch of the same Quinnells that the Mearan Royal House sprang up from, I would think...more humans.  Not a Deryni in the lot, at any rate, so I think we can safely assume there won't already be a TP in Derry when Celsie moves in.  Of course, now that the new Countess is bringing Deryni blood into the Derry line, the heirs will be Deryni as well.  All the more reason to install a TP at Derry at some point, even if not immediately.

I doubt Celsie would be one of those few able to install one single-handedly.  She's better trained than a great many Gwynedd-born Deryni now, but I'm not certain she's necessarily more powerful as a result of that.  I suspect there's a difference between simple knowledge/training and innate potential of power, and it could be that the few who could install one single-handedly would be those rare individuals who are both super-gifted from birth with Deryni powers and well-trained in their use.  But it's possible she might have either learned how to build one in Andelon, or at least learned how from observing what Constanza did (or whoever did the primary working) when her Portal in Chervignon was built, so she might be able to build another in Derry given enough volunteers to lend help and energies.  Even if she can't, though, she knows people who could.  The only downside I'm seeing might be Celsie's reluctance to ask her husband's former Bird of Paradise for any favors.   :D  ("Stanzi, could you help install another TP at Derry that you'd know the coordinates to, so you could at least theoretically pop in and visit me and your ex-lover at any time?"  Awkward.)
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 12, 2010, 03:22:13 pm
 Of course, now that the new Countess is bringing Deryni blood into the Derry line, the heirs will be Deryni as well.  All the more reason to install a TP at Derry at some point, even if not immediately.

Assuming that Derry & Celsie have children; Derry's hardly been chaste, and he hasn't sired any bastards (that we know of) so he may be firing blanks. 
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 03:35:41 pm
There were ways, even in the Middle Ages, of preventing conception.  As I recall from my tour of Warwick Castle (I think it was Warwick, anyway?), one of the more frequently discovered items in archeological dredging of the old moat was evidence of "sausage-casing" condoms.  There were also abortifacient herbs in use, some of which were more reliable than others.  Siphium is one such herb probably driven to extinction by mass marketing among women using it for contraceptive purposes, either to prevent or terminate pregnancy, and--unlike similar herbs--it probably wouldn't have gone extinct if it weren't actually effective.  The practice, though not officially condoned by the Church, was also somewhat less frowned upon because of the widespread belief that human life began at quickening rather than conception, so if you took certain tisanes months before you could feel movement, many people didn't consider that to be a true abortion. 

Of course, Derry wouldn't have much control over the female end of things, but in addition to the herbs, there were wine and vinegar soaked sponges used as a barrier method of contraception, not to mention the even older method of, shall we say, leaving a mess for the laundress to take care of later.  None of these methods are anywhere near as foolproof as abstinence, of course (which is why Derry frets, in Celsie's intro story, when he hears that Richenda is wanting to speak with him urgently about some matter involving perfidy and an innocent maiden, that maybe his precautions weren't quite enough), so there's a chance Derry has a by-blow or two here and there around Gwynedd.  Then again, with rare exceptions like Constanza (who was barren, or she'd never have risked an affair with Derry), most of his lights-of-love have been innkeepers' widows and other commoners, and if they're known lightskirts, paternity would be difficult to prove even if he had fathered any children by them.  And he might never know about them.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 12, 2010, 03:53:08 pm
In terms of the training and knowledge for portal construction, I don't think it is something that is necessarily part of all formal training, even pretty advanced training.  Richenda we know has considerable skills and knowledge - even the snooty Arilan respects her! and allows her to take charge of the workings for Nigel's empowerment - and she presumably doesn't have that knowledge yet.

Also, in KKB Arilan refers to 'persuading the Council' to let him install a portal in Coroth. I think that perhaps the knowledge of portal construction was very, very tightly controlled, maybe largely via the CC itself, and was not something that was part of most Deryni's formal training.   Yes, someone like Stanzi is trained, but Richenda is at least as well trained, if not better - and she apparently doesn't have that knowledge.  After all, she's had one good opportunity to construct a Portal if she did - after Kelric's birth, she had plenty of Deryni in Coroth (herself and Alaric, Duncan, Kelson and Dhugal, plus Derry to draw on for power if needed).  So I feel rather uncomfortable with the idea that portals are just somehow being constructed willy nilly around the place - "have a BBQ this Saturday, gather a couple of Deryni mates and put in a portal while you're waiting for the steaks to cook"  ;)

Don't forget it's also probably a combination of actual knowledge of 'how' to do it, plus the sheer skill and ability to marshal and control all the energies of people you are drawing on, without overdoing it and killing your willing partners.  That is definitely a matter for very well-trained Deryni: obviously Denis has that ability, but it would not be an everyday matter.

No, we don't know all the portals that may be around, but just having a private portal somewhere is not the same as actually being able to make one.  There may be plenty of Deryni who have or know of existing portals, and be able to use them, but don't actually have any idea about making them or even closing them.  They seem to be more common in Torenth, but until the end of KKB there isn't exactly even a hint of a warm and cosy relationship with the Deryni there  :D
  
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 04:10:59 pm
Also, in KKB Arilan refers to 'persuading the Council' to let him install a portal in Coroth. I think that perhaps the knowledge of portal construction was very, very tightly controlled, maybe largely via the CC itself, and was not something that was part of most Deryni's formal training.  

*dies*

Yes, I can just imagine Arilan's thoughts.  "Hm.  Alaric Morgan--the wild card Deryni whom the CC has had major problems accepting pretty much since his birth--really should have a Transfer Portal.  Kelson would really like that.   Unfortunately Morgan doesn't have the knowledge to make one...but I do!  I'd be glad to help him build one--after all, the CC will have no problem with me aiding and abetting Morgan's already considerable influence over the Haldane line!  Since they'll have no problem with this, there's no need for me to even bring the matter up in Council, because after all, it's much easier to get forgiveness than permission...."

Not very Denis-like, I'm afraid.

So yes, if even considering the idea, he'd want to bring the matter up in CC first.  And knowing the CC as he does, he'd realize this would take a lot of persuasiveness on his part.  That doesn't necessarily mean they'd have to be consulted and persuaded each and every time someone wanted to build a Transfer Portal, but in the case of Alaric Morgan, Bad Half-Breed Boy Wonder of Coroth, having one at his disposal--boy, howdy, you bet they'd want to have a say in that!   :D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 12, 2010, 04:13:16 pm
Also, your idea of Celsie somehow 'learning' from watching Stanzi do it - um, Morgan, Duncan and Kelson were in that construction process in HD, and they didn't just gather the knowledge from being part of the process with Denis.  So I don't think it is something that is just 'picked up' or is given out lightly.





 
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 04:26:14 pm
Also, your idea of Celsie somehow 'learning' from watching Stanzi do it - um, Morgan, Duncan and Kelson were in that construction process in HD, and they didn't just gather the knowledge from being part of the process with Denis.  So I don't think it is something that is just 'picked up' or is given out lightly.

Well, I doubt Denis would have been deliberately using it as a "teachable moment" either, and walking them step by step through the process, given what I said earlier about him being unlikely to teach them such skills without the CC's approval, given their distrust of Morgan & Duncan at that point.  If anything, he'd be more likely to deliberately shield what he was doing from them as much as he could while still drawing on their assistance. After all, he's taking a huge enough risk simply breaking the CC's rules to bring them to the Council Chamber, when that's strictly forbidden!  Add teaching them a skill that could possibly be misused by "rogue" Deryni?  Hardly!
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 12, 2010, 04:27:03 pm
Just checked Deryni Magic, and it says: "Given the technical skill and energy output required to construct a Transfer Portal, we can surmise that Portals were probably never really numerous, even at the height of Deryni ascendancy."

So that adds to my concerns about having portals 'just constructed by a few friends' in Chervignon and Derry.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 04:32:44 pm
Just checked Deryni Magic, and it says: "Given the technical skill and energy output required to construct a Transfer Portal, we can surmise that Portals were probably never really numerous, even at the height of Deryni ascendancy."

So that adds to my concerns about having portals 'just constructed by a few friends' in Chervignon and Derry.

And as Arilan aptly demonstrated on the battlefield, a "few friends" who can provide the energy output, plus just one Deryni with the necessary technical skill, is enough to get the job done.  Again, who's to say that whoever trained Arilan didn't also train Constanza?  Or at least train someone else Constanza knows and could persuade into helping?  Such a person would be more likely to be found in Andelon's Court than in Gwynedd after all.  Unless Arilan is the only guy in all the Eleven Kingdoms who knows how to make them anymore, and he's refusing to pass on the knowledge (or having to run and beg for permission each time), chances are that at least one other person has the technical skill to do the job...and Celsie would only need one such person.  Plus, of course, the volunteers for the energy bank.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 09:07:46 pm
Just checked Deryni Magic, and it says: "Given the technical skill and energy output required to construct a Transfer Portal, we can surmise that Portals were probably never really numerous, even at the height of Deryni ascendancy."

And there would be extremely valid reasons for this which would have as much to do with the number of Deryni in general who would have access to training as anything else.  OK, let's take a look at it this way. 

Gwynedd in the time period of the books covers the 900s to the early 1100s, yes?  OK, so just to look at what population figures would be like for the Kingdom during this time, let's do a comparison with England of 1066.  It's roughly analogous in terms of type of society plus ease of finding stats on the Internet about that year.

So....Estimated population of London in 1066 seems to vary widely, but most seem to fall between 10,000 and 50,000.  I would imagine this would be comparable to Rhemuth, so for the sake of comparison, let's say 50,000.  That's a huge city in an era when the average major city would have at most 500-1000, and most villages would have a few hundred at most.  I've been looking at some manorial records lately for knights' lands (comparable to Chervignon) where the entire manorial estate--including the village, would be closer to 25 to 50 persons, if that.  It's an agrarian society, so the population centers are very spread out, and centered around locations ideally situated for water supply and defense.

OK, if Rhemuth has 50,000 (and that's the high estimate), Coroth would probably be, due to its location, the only comparable sized port city.  IF it is comparably sized, but let's assume it is.  So that's 100,000 people accounted for so far.  But of course, most people would live outside these towns, so looking at estimates for the population throughout England during this time period, they tend to fall between 1.25 and 2 million for the entire kingdom.  Let's call it 2 million to make the math easier.

Of these 2 million, most would fall under the "Third Estate"--i.e., the peasantry.  The small remainder would be clergy and nobility/royalty.  Only these far smaller segments of the population could afford the time and the possible expense of full Deryni training.  (That is to say, even if the Scholae don't charge, you'd still have living expenses, travel expenses, etc.  Your average peasant Deryni would be working dawn to dusk, leaving little time to learn formal Deryni training even if this were permitted.  They would probably only have the most rudimentary abilities like Truth-Reading, handfire, and what the common folk would think of as "hill magic.")  So what percentage of the population would have easier access (such as it ever was "easy") to specialized training?  Maybe 5% at most.  So 5% of 2 million brings us down to 100,000 individuals who are clergy, landed knights, barons, earls, dukes or royals.  I doubt adding in the very few wealthy non-landeds wouldn't inflate this figure too much, if at all, so let's add them in too.

OK, out of all of these, you have a population which has an extremely rare genetic trait in common.  I'm going to guess this is roughly 1% of the population.  That's rare but not unheard-of rare.  My personality type happens to also occur in this percentage to the general population, so I know several people who share it, but not a heck of a whole lot.  So, of the Deryni in Gwynedd theoretically in a position to get proper training, that brings us down to...1000.

Personally, I wonder if that figure might not be a little bit high, but then again, that would be clumped in a smaller number of families who carry the trait.  So assuming a generation in which at least one parent and all children surviving to adulthood are Deryni, I'll guess in any given year you might have an average of 5 members of a household with the trait.  Some would have fewer and some more, of course, but that makes 200 households total. 

Some of these, of course, don't even know they're Deryni.  Of those who do, some are afraid to pursue training, or can't take the time away from Gwynedd to seek it elsewhere, so in modern-day Gwynedd there'd maybe be 50 to 100 households at maximum that might be able to send someone to get the training needed to create a Transfer Portal.  And not all would, of  course.  Some simply don't have need for one.  (You have to know at least one other location to go to, and have a need to go there frequently enough to justify going through the trouble of making an easy access to it.)  Some could certainly use one, but the risks of having something that says "Deryni live here" outweigh the advantages of one.  Or to have one built, if they don't know how themselves, they'd have to have someone with the required training have free access to their home.  Even in peacetime, most people would be uncomfortable with handing just anyone the psychic equivalent of a housekey, but for most of Deryni history, they've been in what is essentially a war of sorts.  A Cold War, if not outright fighting for their lives.

Since all of these numbers were rounded up, I actually think the true number of Deryni in the trainable population is lower.  So at most, there might have been, at one time, 40 to 50 private homes with TPs installed.  Ever.  And you'd have to have the skill and energy output AND enough motivation to make the effort worthwhile.  But none of that negates the fact that this also means at least that many people could, at least in theory, have had access to the training at one time, or have had access to at least one person with that training, and would also have access to a few willing friends (or household members, more likely) willing to supply the energy required.

40 to 50 private homes is definitely not very numerous in a kingdom with 2 million souls, of whom up to 20,000 (including peasantry) could possibly have at least some trace of Deryni blood.  And a lot of the homes from Camber's time boasting TPs have probably been destroyed, and few new ones rebuilt or reactivated due to the dangers in the past 200 years.  But that doesn't mean they can't be.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 12, 2010, 09:11:01 pm
Those herbal methods could be pretty tough on the body.  Cramps, bleeding, vomiting; they could even cause permanent sterility.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 09:30:27 pm
Yes, and Derry couldn't have used them regardless.  He'd have been limited to the sausage-casing condom or the early withdrawal methods, unless he could sweet talk someone into the wine-soaked sponge.

Still, there were ways of preventing conception, or at least childbirth, long before the advent of modern contraception, which is what I was getting at, and Derry would probably have availed himself of some.  Or at the very least, would've avoided most Court Ladies at all costs (too much chance of being forced to marry her if caught, which was more likely if she got pregnant) and would have stuck to one-night stands with peasant women where, even if paternity were provable, he'd at worst simply feel honor-bound to give her a hefty purse of coin.  And if most of those one-night stands were in various inns and dives throughout Gwynedd, in theory he could have any number of children out there, IF he used no protection, and IF he happened to catch at least one of those women during her fertile time of month, and IF the child survived those critical first five years of life.  But even if all those things happened, would Derry even know, or would he just continue on, blissfully unaware?  Would a tavern wench in Desse happen to recognize the Earl of Derry on sight and be able to identify him without any doubt as her baby's father nine months later, and even if she did, would she be able to get a message to him to notify him?  It's all doubtful.  Maybe a few years later, the sight of a kid with brown curls and blue eyes holding the hand of a wench he spent a night with once or twice might make him wonder...IF he even remembers what the girl looked like. 

And also, while Morgan teases Derry about his wenching ways, the simple truth could also be that Derry didn't get around nearly as much as he might have let on, much like Dhugal, the stealing-kisses-behind-the-curtains lad who talked a good line but was just as much a virgin as Kelson.  Not that Derry is exactly virginal, but he's probably not Casanova either.  With all the responsibilities on his plate--Earl of Derry, Regency Council of Marley, lieutenant to Alaric, Royal Council member--when's he going to have the time to bed his way through half the female population of Gwynedd or even Rhemuth? Only in his dreams.  :D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 12, 2010, 09:50:27 pm
And all that of course, is assuming that those various tavern wenches and peasant women etc didn't have other one-night stands  ;)   Derry might not be the only possible father, and of course, if the woman was married, the legal presumption was that the child was a child of the marriage.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 10:18:21 pm
In terms of the training and knowledge for portal construction, I don't think it is something that is necessarily part of all formal training, even pretty advanced training.  Richenda we know has considerable skills and knowledge - even the snooty Arilan respects her! and allows her to take charge of the workings for Nigel's empowerment - and she presumably doesn't have that knowledge yet.

Also, in KKB Arilan refers to 'persuading the Council' to let him install a portal in Coroth. I think that perhaps the knowledge of portal construction was very, very tightly controlled, maybe largely via the CC itself, and was not something that was part of most Deryni's formal training.   Yes, someone like Stanzi is trained, but Richenda is at least as well trained, if not better - and she apparently doesn't have that knowledge.

But is she better trained?  She's well trained, yes, as are Rothana and Araxie.  However, my mind keeps flashing back to a passing reference in one of the CM books (I think?) about some female Deryni being described as "well trained for a woman."  And obviously, given the egalitarian way in which female Deryni adepts are treated in the Camberian Council, at least, that wasn't meant as a slur against the gender, so what would it mean?  Well, in most women's cases, they'd have been married off at a much younger age than the average man, thereby--at least in some cases--cutting shorter the number of years they could devote to serious study and training.  Now, we know the average Naming Ceremony was conducted when a child is between 8 and 10, and that's also the child's first intro to magic.  So if Richenda married at 16, she probably had 8 years at most in which she could be formally trained, of which probably most of the more advanced training probably came in the final year or two, when she was intellectually mature enough for it.  Same thing for Rothana and Araxie.  Rothana became a novice at a young age, in an order in Gwynedd, and there's no evidence she was in the Kelson era equivalent of a place as lenient about magic as Arc-en-Ciel, so chances are her training was cut short by age 16 as well, at least for the most part.  Bran didn't know Richenda was Deryni, presumably, but even if he had, would he have encouraged her to continue her studies and training?  Araxie is really the only one of these three women who would have had the opportunity to go further with her training, both as a royal Princess (an advantage she shares with Rothana), a resident in a Deryni Prince's (her uncle's) Court, and being still unmarried at age 19.  

Evaine almost certainly could've created a Portal, but she's also Camber's daughter and Rhys's wife, two men who would've eagerly urged her to continue her training and lifelong study.  Hardly a fair comparison.

So yes, Richenda is very powerful, and Arilan would very much respect her abilities.  At the same time, it would be unsurprising if she hadn't gotten to the level of training yet to make a Portal if, say, that's normally handled in Year 10 and she only got as far as Year 8 of formal training.  Most women wouldn't get that far unless in a position to be able to do so despite the demands of marriage, family, and running a household and/or demesne.  Sofiana?  Absolutely--she's a sovereign Princess.  Kyri?  Unmarried most of the time she's on the Council.  Vivienne? Comes closest to being in an equivalent position--a Count's daughter, and married, but she still married two years later in life than Richenda did, and presumably to a man who would have no problem with her continuing her training even after marriage (and may even be in a position to contribute to it), since marriage has evidently not been any bar to her being on the Camberian Council.
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After all, she's had one good opportunity to construct a Portal if she did - after Kelric's birth, she had plenty of Deryni in Coroth (herself and Alaric, Duncan, Kelson and Dhugal, plus Derry to draw on for power if needed).

In theory, if she had the requisite knowledge, this is true.  In practice, I'm wondering if she'd want to wait until she's not either pregnant or nursing before working an extremely energy-draining spell, unless there was urgent need.  Not simply "We really ought to have a Portal," but "We NEED a Portal NOW; lives are at stake."  But honestly, I think the absence of a Portal would argue more for "Sorry, dear, but I didn't get that far in my studies, even though I'm better trained than at least 95% of the Deryni in Gwynedd, because that whole 'marrying Bran' thing happened before I got that far."  And yes, now she is married to a man who would support her continued formal training, but even if Akim is willing and able to provide that, he'll still have to do so between her other obligations and his own, not on a full-time basis.  So she'd take longer to catch up than a single woman with no children, no Earldom to be Regent for, and no Duchy to help run.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 12, 2010, 11:32:49 pm
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She's well trained, yes, as are Rothana and Araxie. 
You know, that's a question about Araxie - I can't remember whether Sivorn was Deryni?  If not, where does Araxie get her powers from?   She certainly doesn't appear to have had nearly the training that you would expect, as Azim seems to be trying to bring her up to speed, as it were.

Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 11:34:25 pm
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She's well trained, yes, as are Rothana and Araxie. 
You know, that's a question about Araxie - I can't remember whether Sivorn was Deryni?  If not, where does Araxie get her powers from?   She certainly doesn't appear to have had nearly the training that you would expect, as Azim seems to be trying to bring her up to speed, as it were.

She's a Deryni/Haldane mix like Kelson; Sivorn is the Hort of Orsal's sister.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Gyrfalcon64207 on August 12, 2010, 11:37:42 pm
Vivienne also probably married a deryni, given her open derision towards half-bloods, so she could conceivably have continued her training.

  In this sequence of stories Celsie has access to an Arilan through Sophie, and by now, wouldn't your Seisyl have as much training as Denis?  The need for a portal aspect still applies, and no one would be putting one in on a whim.  But if it comes down to it, Celsie could probably get her friends to help with power, and then if they included Alaric or Richenda, and if whoever led walked everybody else through it, then they'd all have the knowledge, and it would all come down to power again.  But all of them have access to at least four to six deryni friends, and assorted cooperative humans by now--if they can manage to get everybody in one place at the same time.
I can't figure out how better to phrase all that and it's a bit confusing, but I tried.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 12, 2010, 11:39:39 pm
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She's well trained, yes, as are Rothana and Araxie. 
You know, that's a question about Araxie - I can't remember whether Sivorn was Deryni?  If not, where does Araxie get her powers from?   She certainly doesn't appear to have had nearly the training that you would expect, as Azim seems to be trying to bring her up to speed, as it were.

She's a Deryni/Haldane mix like Kelson; Sivorn is the Hort of Orsal's sister.
Hmmm - I thought it was a bit open as to whether the Hort was actually Deryni himself, or whether he was quite simply very flexible about it all.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 12, 2010, 11:44:11 pm
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She's well trained, yes, as are Rothana and Araxie.  
You know, that's a question about Araxie - I can't remember whether Sivorn was Deryni?  If not, where does Araxie get her powers from?   She certainly doesn't appear to have had nearly the training that you would expect, as Azim seems to be trying to bring her up to speed, as it were.

She's a Deryni/Haldane mix like Kelson; Sivorn is the Hort of Orsal's sister.
Hmmm - I thought it was a bit open as to whether the Hort was actually Deryni himself, or whether he was quite simply very flexible about it all.

No, Letald is definitely Deryni, just far more discreet about it, like most Deryni who aren't named Alaric Morgan or in that circle.   :D  Remember, he could hardly use his own Transfer Portal if he weren't Deryni!

Don't have KKB handy at the moment, but here's a bit from the Codex entry on him:
"...the Hort agreed to allow King Kelson and some of his entourage to transport to a hidden portal at Orsal, in order to protect and secure the royal womenfolk in residence there from the potential depredations of the escaped Count Teymuraz.  In return, Letald required Gwynedd and Torenth to provide him reciprocal access to a portal in each of those countries, and the Kings agreed."
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 13, 2010, 12:19:51 am
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She's well trained, yes, as are Rothana and Araxie. 
You know, that's a question about Araxie - I can't remember whether Sivorn was Deryni?  If not, where does Araxie get her powers from?   She certainly doesn't appear to have had nearly the training that you would expect, as Azim seems to be trying to bring her up to speed, as it were.

Oh, forgot my question earlier!  Where is it that Azim is shown as trying to bring her up to speed?  The only time I recall them directly working together was when she was assisting him in removing the compulsions from Derry's mind after Derry's attack on Matyas.  Yes, she's in a learner role in that scene, but I imagine the specialized kind of mind-sifting he's doing is something she might have known how to do in theory but not had much if any practical experience in doing.  For all her access  to training, she's still a 19 year old girl, not a much older and more experienced Knight of the Anvil.  And I don't imagine she'd have been exposed to a lot of people under compulsions on which to practice removing them.  Richenda probably didn't have Azim's level of knowledge about it either; if she had, she'd easily have been able to double-check Alaric's work soon afterwards and discovered not all the compulsions were broken.  (She'd definitely have motive for wanting to be sure, if she could--the man kidnapped her son!  What else might he still do, if there were a lingering compulsion Alaric didn't manage to weed out?  If she never even offered to do a recheck, that tells me she probably didn't think her training was all that much superior to Morgan's in that particular area, so it wouldn't be worth a recheck.)  Not knowing how to do a deep and thorough sifting probably doesn't indicate poor training for Richenda and Araxie as much as it just shows superior training and experience on the part of Azim.

Now, if there were scenes in which Azim is shown trying to get Araxie's powers on a par with others because she's farther behind than he'd like, I missed those completely.  Then again, I'll admit I was more focused on the cool Torenthi scenes, when not distracted by Kelson's whinging.   :D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: AnnieUK on August 13, 2010, 04:46:45 am
This has been a fascinating discussion, guys, thanks :)  It's also great that although people obviously have firm opinions, it is staying nice - a couple of boards  I frequent this would be at the name-calling and thread-locking stage by now ;)

I was just thinking it's almost a shame that it's in the fanfic board!  I bet there are a lot of people with no interest in fanfic who miss out on a lot of cool discussion over here.

Anyway, as you were!
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 13, 2010, 08:57:37 am
Yes, and Derry couldn't have used them regardless.  He'd have been limited to the sausage-casing condom or the early withdrawal methods, unless he could sweet talk someone into the wine-soaked sponge.

"Have a cup of this nice herbal tea, dear; an old family recipe."
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 13, 2010, 09:12:01 am
"Have a cup of this nice herbal tea, dear; an old family recipe."
Don't you mean it's an old NON-family recipe?  ;)
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 13, 2010, 09:16:09 am
This has been a fascinating discussion, guys, thanks :)  It's also great that although people obviously have firm opinions, it is staying nice - a couple of boards  I frequent this would be at the name-calling and thread-locking stage by now ;)

I was just thinking it's almost a shame that it's in the fanfic board!  I bet there are a lot of people with no interest in fanfic who miss out on a lot of cool discussion over here.

Anyway, as you were!

Heh.   :D

Years ago, I belonged to a USENET group...won't mention the name here, but it was a bunch of Star Wars fans.  And there were some very well thought out and serious discussions on that group.  A few.  I met my best friend of the past...oh, 13 years now, I think?...as a result of one of those discussions.  But there were also knock-down, drag-out, virtual face-punching, name-calling, mother-defiling flamefests resembling nothing more than the opening volleys of the Apocalypse.  Screaming hissy fits ending in threats of lawsuits for libel, slander, and pretty much everything short of buggering kittens in the street.

The cause for all this uproar?  Was it, perhaps, a Duel Arcane over matters of earth-shattering importance, such as some laboratory-proven but ethically controversial new treatment for cancer?

Nope.  I'm afraid not.  These battles tended to be waged over such monumental questions as... *drumroll*...."Which is the correct name for the satellite of the planet Endor over which the Second Death Star was built?  Was it the Sanctuary Moon, the Century Moon, or the Centauri moon?"

Yes.  All that electronic angst over something as trivial as Emperor Palpatine's sloppy elocution.   ;D

I fled USENET while vestiges of sanity still remained (which, I know, remains debatable!), which is probably a shame, since around the same time I learned about another interesting sounding group called alt.fan.deryni or some such (a few here may recognize the group I'm referring to), but I never really checked it out fully because I was too mind-scarred from my other USENET experience.

I think the main difference between a group like the one I fled from and a forum like this one (and also other discussion groups I've been on in which discussion and healthy debate is the norm and flame wars are next to nonexistent) is the median age of the members.  Given the time period in which most of the Deryni books were published, most of the fans ardent enough to be involved in a forum like this are older and more mature than the mid-teen to early-20s crowd that dominated at that Star Wars group.  And while there are many very level-headed thinkers in that age range who are very much aware that This Is Fiction and It's OK To Have A Real Life, there are all too many who haven't moved past the stage of "X disagrees with me" must automatically mean "X thinks I'm a weenie!"  and also "My opinions on this allegedly 'fictional' subject that IS my Real Life are of such monumental importance to the world that ANYONE who disagrees with them MUST BE ERADICATED!!!1!111!"   :o

And coming from that age range, it's at least somewhat excusable if rather annoying, because their brains ain't done baking yet.  I've got intellectually precocious adolescent children, but every once in a while they do something that so much defies any notion of walking-around sense, I want to check to see if the pilot light inside their heads is still lit.  But they're kids.  Kids in rapidly developing bodies, but still kids.  After the age of full physical and mental maturation, though, it simply becomes sad.

So yeah, I'm all about the stimulating discussions and debates, but if it ever degenerates to name-calling (unless it's a shared jest), just drop me off at the nearest mental institution.  Because, despite my occasional wish that it might be otherwise and that I could book a tour, the Eleven Kingdoms and its denizens Just Ain't Real.    

(If they are, though, I've got dibs on Duncan McLain!  I know he's celibate, but I can at least look forward to hours of stimulating discussion in his study, can't I?)   ;D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: AnnieUK on August 13, 2010, 09:41:52 am
LOL at pilot light still lit - that so rings true with me!
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 13, 2010, 09:53:47 am
And 14 is the age of legal manhood in the Eleven Kingdoms.  Even my 15 year old son thinks that's a spectacularly bad idea!   Or as he put it, when I was trying to explain the premise behind DR to him, "Oh yeah, a 14 year old in charge of an entire Kingdom.  Like what could possibly go wrong with that plan?!"   :D

I adore Kelson.  But I'm glad he's the prodigy that he is, and I hope for Torenth's sake that Liam-Lajos can at least come close.  My kid's a bright fellow, but I'm still shuddering at the thought of him being in control of a huge moving chunk of steel with rubber tires this year.  I'd hate to think of waking up tomorrow morning and finding out my son has suddenly become my President, or even my Mayor!   ;D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 13, 2010, 12:29:01 pm
And 14 is the age of legal manhood in the Eleven Kingdoms.  Even my 15 year old son thinks that's a spectacularly bad idea!   Or as he put it, when I was trying to explain the premise behind DR to him, "Oh yeah, a 14 year old in charge of an entire Kingdom.  Like what could possibly go wrong with that plan?!"   :D

Well, in Midaeval times people didn't live much past 30, what with the bad hygene and rudimentary medical care.  14 is practically middle-aged!
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: AnnieUK on August 13, 2010, 12:55:55 pm
Was that true though, or was that life expectancy at birth?  If true, then Nigel and Alaric had better make sure they have their wills up to date and they seem pretty hale and hearty to me.

30 is normally bandied about as life expectancy in medieval times, but since there was a 50+% infant mortality rate that implies that there will be 60+ year olds still kicking around.  Life expectancy at 5 years old is a better indication, since a lot of the weaker ones will have been weeded out by 5 years old.

I know in my family tree (not as far back, obviously, but far back enough that life expectancy was 40-50 and out of one family of 16 only 8 kids made it past the age of 5, and dad was a doctor!) I was surprised to find a lot of ancestors living to 80+. 
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 13, 2010, 01:02:07 pm
True, in terms of average medieval lifespan, though one has to remember that "average lifespans" are calculated with things like high infant and geriatric mortality rates in mind.  So it wasn't necessarily true that the average Joe was ready to kick the bucket when he hit 30; as long as he remained hearty and hale, he could live to be 50, 60, 70, 80, even 90.  Lots of examples of old folk in the Middle Ages.  BUT if a person managed to make it past the fifth birthday, there were still a lot of dangers out there that could kill even the healthiest of men, and a lot of illnesses--some with extremely rapid onset--which were more likely to be fatal then then now, in our age of antibiotics and other powerful medications and greater surgical expertise.

That said, though, I get the impression that the average lifespan might be a bit longer in the idealized Middle Ages of the KK universe, at least among the nobility and certainly among the Deryni.  There's a part in ITKS where two Camberian Council members are discussing Sief's untimely death and wondering how it happened so suddenly and with no warning, because he was "only 60" (or in that ballpark) and had appeared to be in perfectly good health the week before.  The two discussing this were only a decade younger themselves (I'm thinking now that it was Seisyll Arilan and Michon de Courcy), and one of them made some reference to Sief not having been very old "for our kind."   That leads me to think that the average Deryni could expect to have a long life span unless he encountered some untimely death due to injury or mortal illness.  Or, of course, intolerant humans lighting them up as torches.

And if that's the case, then unless there were some highly disproportionate difference between Deryni lifespans and human ones, or assuming the Haldane powers don't confer some odd tendency towards a shorter lifespan, 14 is hardly "middle aged."    Even in our own Middle Ages, with 30 being the average life expectancy and young men and women being treated as adults and marrying much earlier than is the norm today, your average young man would still be in his early apprenticeship years at age 14 and not allowed to marry until he could support a wife, which might not happen until he was in his 20s at the earliest.  Girls were sometimes married in early to mid-teens, but the wiser minds of the day suggested not giving a daughter in marriage until her late teens so she'd be more likely to survive childbirth.  It was mainly among the wealthy that you had child marriages, mainly for dynastic reasons.  The teens and early-twenties were perceived to be technically "adult," but not yet mature, not yet what the Elizabethans would call "sober and sad" (the words don't mean the same thing they do today, but something more like "mature and wise").  The mark of full maturation was to reach that state of "sober and sad" and be in a position to provide for a wife and family.  At that point, a young man was considered to have entered the full estate of manhood instead of mere rash youth.

I suspect, even in Gwynedd, that the case is quite similar.  Kelson at 14 is of legal age, yes.  He is King in full power as of the moment of his birth 14 years after the fact.  However, he would still have been expected to rely quite heavily on his Royal Council's sage advice (well, with occasional lapses, usually sage advice, unless Jehana's running the show!), and until he proved he actually had the chops to handle his new job on his own, he'd have met with extremely stiff resistance the entire way if he'd acted with the rash impetuosity of the average 14 year old after becoming King.  Morgan and others would have had to find some way to bring the boy to heel until he could learn better wisdom and discernment.  Either that, or stand by and watch him cause the downfall of his Kingdom.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 13, 2010, 01:13:21 pm
Was that true though, or was that life expectancy at birth?  If true, then Nigel and Alaric had better make sure they have their wills up to date and they seem pretty hale and hearty to me.

And Derry had better get a move on in fathering those heirs, because he's already 32!  Celsie'd better lock him in that bedchamber and not let him out again until she's knocked up, if he's approaching his expiration date.   ;)
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 13, 2010, 02:05:05 pm
Vivienne also probably married a deryni, given her open derision towards half-bloods, so she could conceivably have continued her training.

  In this sequence of stories Celsie has access to an Arilan through Sophie, and by now, wouldn't your Seisyl have as much training as Denis?  The need for a portal aspect still applies, and no one would be putting one in on a whim.  But if it comes down to it, Celsie could probably get her friends to help with power, and then if they included Alaric or Richenda, and if whoever led walked everybody else through it, then they'd all have the knowledge, and it would all come down to power again.  But all of them have access to at least four to six deryni friends, and assorted cooperative humans by now--if they can manage to get everybody in one place at the same time.
I can't figure out how better to phrase all that and it's a bit confusing, but I tried.

I have no clue how I missed seeing this message last night.   :)  But yes, Seisyll the Younger and his siblings would've had the full advantages of all the Deryni training they could possibly squeeze in.  And even the Arilan girls would have more training than most, being unmarried still and therefore more able to devote themselves to their arcane studies full-time.  (Though Javana's betrothed and expected to marry in late summer of 1126, but presumably to a Deryni man who would support her continuing education if she decides she wants to continue.)

That said, what they probably still lack is the sort of practical experience that comes with only years and years of arcane practice, and that's something only the passage of time and the exposure to learning opportunities can grant.  Seisyll may have full theoretical knowledge of how to build a Transfer Portal.  Whether he's actually had a chance to put that knowledge to use yet, I don't know. 

Though if he knows how, I can already hear his brother Sextus grumbling, "Next time you need an urgent message sent on to behind-the-backside-of-beyond Pelagog in the dead of winter, you can bloody well do it yourself! And while you're up there, build us a TP somewhere up that way, in case Kelson decides he needs another Arilan miracle!"   

Seisyll:  "What, you didn't install one while you were already up there?   You mean you can't manage to create one single-handedly, with your eyes closed and one hand tied behind your back?  What sort of Arilan are you?  When are you going to start pulling your weight around here, boyo?"  ;D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 13, 2010, 02:52:22 pm
And Derry had better get a move on in fathering those heirs, because he's already 32!  Celsie'd better lock him in that bedchamber and not let him out again until she's knocked up, if he's approaching his expiration date.   ;)

What do you think all that embroidery was for?
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 13, 2010, 03:12:24 pm
I suspect, even in Gwynedd, that the case is quite similar.  Kelson at 14 is of legal age, yes.  He is King in full power as of the moment of his birth 14 years after the fact.  However, he would still have been expected to rely quite heavily on his Royal Council's sage advice (well, with occasional lapses, usually sage advice, unless Jehana's running the show!), and until he proved he actually had the chops to handle his new job on his own, he'd have met with extremely stiff resistance the entire way if he'd acted with the rash impetuosity of the average 14 year old after becoming King.  Morgan and others would have had to find some way to bring the boy to heel until he could learn better wisdom and discernment.  Either that, or stand by and watch him cause the downfall of his Kingdom.

The point was made that legal adulthood might not be until 14, but knighthood was usually witheld until 18.

Even with us, one may be technically and adult at 18, but nobody really takes your seriously until you're in your mid-twenties.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: DesertRose on August 13, 2010, 05:30:40 pm
On the topic of average lifespans/life expectancy in the Middle Ages, one must also remember that a LOT of women died in childbirth or shortly thereafter from complications thereof, at relatively young ages, so that torques the numbers a bit too.  Nuns in the middle ages were likely to live into their 70s or so, because they weren't bearing children.  Also, women who survived to go through menopause were likely to live as long as women do today; surviving those dangerous years of childbearing (which remained a hazardous undertaking well into the 20th C.) generally meant you'd live to be quite old.

Also, the numbers are torqued a bit due to high infant/child mortality rates.  Surviving long enough to grow up tended to mean you'd make it to 50 or so anyway, barring violence.  So I don't think Derry is too close to expiring, barring battles or skirmishes or swordfights.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Elkhound on August 13, 2010, 08:43:47 pm
Also, the numbers are torqued a bit due to high infant/child mortality rates.  Surviving long enough to grow up tended to mean you'd make it to 50 or so anyway, barring violence.  So I don't think Derry is too close to expiring, barring battles or skirmishes or swordfights.

And he is involved in so few of those!
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 13, 2010, 09:49:03 pm
Also, the numbers are torqued a bit due to high infant/child mortality rates.  Surviving long enough to grow up tended to mean you'd make it to 50 or so anyway, barring violence.  So I don't think Derry is too close to expiring, barring battles or skirmishes or swordfights.

And he is involved in so few of those!

*snicker*

Well, with the unrest in Meara finally settled, and an alliance with Torenth finally appearing to be in reach, not to mention more widespread acceptance of Deryni and the repeal of the Statutes of Ramos making it less likely that anti-Deryni violence will break out again and need to be suppressed, there's a good chance of Derry enjoying a bit of peace, at least for a little while.

Of course, in 1132, I'm going to upset the apple cart a bit....   :D

(What happens in 1132?  Well, that's for me to know and for you to find out...eventually...once I get enough of it written to start posting the story here....  Muahahahaha!!!   ;D )
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Gyrfalcon64207 on August 13, 2010, 11:38:01 pm
And Dan/Aidan Draper/Haldane lives to 83 in the interregnum, while we're talking about life expectancy.  If I remember correctly, Rhys felt that that was rather old.
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 14, 2010, 12:58:09 am
And little wonder...I think 83 is pretty old too, even in 2010!   :D
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Alkari on August 14, 2010, 02:58:19 am
Only 83?  Heck, in my family, that's just about average life expectancy.  :D

As my dear brother once announced at a family member's 70th birthday:  "Medical science has at last established the key to long life.  Choose your parents carefully."



Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: AnnieUK on August 14, 2010, 04:15:13 am
* looks at both sides of the family and decides she takes after her mother *
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: Evie on August 14, 2010, 01:14:54 pm
Only 83?  Heck, in my family, that's just about average life expectancy.  :D

As my dear brother once announced at a family member's 70th birthday:  "Medical science has at last established the key to long life.  Choose your parents carefully."

Oh yes, three of my grandparents lived into their 90s.  The fact remains, though, that 83 is hardly "middle-aged" anymore.  Not unless your family has a life expectancy of...oh...160?   ;)  So yes, 83 is on the "rather old" end of the spectrum.  Not necessarily on death's doorstep--that depends on the individual.  But definitely old.  
Title: The Demoiselle and Derry Chapter 7
Post by: derynifanatic64 on September 18, 2010, 07:48:16 pm
Rhys Michael's wife/queen Michaela lived to her 80th year.  Also, Rhys and Evaine's youngest daughter Jerusha lived into her 80's.