The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => Other Deryni Books => Codex Derynianus => Topic started by: BishopCullen on June 23, 2007, 02:29:20 pm

Title: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: BishopCullen on June 23, 2007, 02:29:20 pm
The Camberian Council has discussed this topic.  Where does King Kelson get his Deryni blood from?  The obvious answer was his mother, Jehanna, a deryni who did not want to acknowledge her true heritage.  I propose it was far earlier, and it was in direct line from Holy Saint Camber himself.  Hang on and follow this...From Camber-his daughter Evaine.  Married Rhys Thuryn.  Their daughter Rhysel.  Married Robert Ainslie.  Their daughter Tiphane.  She married Tammarron, Duke of Cassan.  Their daughter Lady Swynbeth married Cluim Haldane, the last surviving son of King Uthyr, son of King Rhys Michael.  Of course, this is only valid if the daughter of Rhysel and Robert has any deryni blood at all, since Robert was human.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Old English on June 24, 2007, 07:46:15 am
As far as I understand it the Deryni gene is dominant, so Tiphane would be a half-breed Deryni with active powers - the same as Alaric and Duncan.  Reasonable theory for the appearance of Deryni blood in the Haldane line but personally I've always thought it was there from way before.

Wasn't it Camber and Joram's discovery of shields in Cinhil that planted the idea of being able to awaken Deryni-like powers in the Haldane line in the first place?  I could be wrong - I haven't read the Camber series for quite a while.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Bynw on June 24, 2007, 12:42:25 pm
You are correct.

There has been an infusion of Deryni blood into the Haldane line periodically though out its long history. The Festilic claim is due to such a union of Haldane kings and Deryni queens.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: derynifanatic64 on June 24, 2007, 02:55:36 pm
Festil I was the great, great, great grandson of King Aidan Haldane from the late 600's, according to the Codex.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: heretoday on June 24, 2007, 04:05:08 pm
I am in the middle of re-reading The Bastard Prince and Michaela Drummond wife of King Rhys Michael Haldane's and mother of Uthyr was deryni - her mother was Elinor Howell, mother of Ansel Macrorie, Michaela and her brother Cathan were from her second marriage to Jamie Drummond after her husband Cathan Macrorie was killed. 
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Braniana on July 08, 2007, 11:50:53 pm
From what I'm about to post, I've clearly spent way too much time looking at this stuff.  Apologies in advance if this is a case of too much information.

Prior to the Interregnum, there were 5 Haldane-Furstan marriages, 3 of which had significance to the Haldane bloodline:
-Augarin's son Bearand married Kypriona Furstana (son, but no grandchildren)
-Augarin's daughter Betradis married King Aldred Furstan
-Augarin's son Aidan had 2 daughters marry Furstans
     -Bethany married King Imre Furstan (son of Aldred and Betradis)
     -Moira married Aleksy Furstan
-Augarin's grandson Ryons (by son Llarik) married Raphaela Furstana (daughter of Imre and Bethany)
And Cinhil was Ryon's and Raphaela's great-great-great-grandson.

An interesting topic of speculation: how much power those Haldane's might have had, with or without training.  I'd agree it a logical way to explain Cinhil's genetic receptivity to the powers bestowed on him.

And while these Deryni marriages probably didn't contribute much to Kelson, after that many generations' remove, there have been a handful since that may have refreshed what was there before:

-Michaela Drummond married Rhys Michael, as previously mentioned.  Neither the Drummond or Howell familes were particulary strong strains of power, but there was at least something there.
-Uthyr (son of Rhys and Michaela) married Grania MacInnis (daughter of Iver MacInnis and Richeldis MacLean.  Granted that Richeldis' power (what little there was) was blocked in adolescence, but I recall Joram and Co, believing/speculating that blocked parents would still transmit the power down to their children, so Grania may have gotten a tiny bit from her mom.
-Nygel (son of Uthyr and Grania) married Susanta Howell (Sudrey's great-granddaughter).  No surviving sons, and even Sudrey's daughter didn't have hardly any powers other than shields, so moot point with this marriage.
-Cluim (son of Uthyr and Grania) married Swynbeth FitzArthurQuinnell, with ancestry listed above.  Likely a powerful jolt since it traces to Camber.
-Brion (Cluim's great-great-grandson) married Jehana, which is logically the primary source of Kelson's non-Haldane powers.
-And since Brion's son Kelson (with his dual powers) has married Araxie (also with dual powers, or at least the potiential to have both), their children will undoubtedly be formidable.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Old English on July 09, 2007, 01:17:55 pm
Nice bit of research, Braniana!   ;D

-Uthyr (son of Rhys and Michaela) married Grania MacInnis (daughter of Iver MacInnis and Richeldis MacLean.  Granted that Richeldis' power (what little there was) was blocked in adolescence, but I recall Joram and Co, believing/speculating that blocked parents would still transmit the power down to their children, so Grania may have gotten a tiny bit from her mom.

My thoughts on this is that Richeldis's power being blocked would have been a psychic intervention and have no effect on genetic inheritance - unless the block was implemented by a Healer with sufficient knowledge and skill to be able to manipulate chromosomes - so logically her children would still carry Deryni potential.

Perhaps Deryni genetics is a whole other subject though!  :o
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Kansas Bear on August 24, 2007, 08:41:58 am
-Brion (Cluim's great-great-grandson) married Jehana, which is logically the primary source of Kelson's non-Haldane powers.


I thought it had been mentioned or stated that Jehana was Deryni, albeit a self hating one.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Braniana on August 24, 2007, 07:50:12 pm
Yes, she is.  As the Camberian Council states (somewhere), Jehana has pure Deryni lineage from both parents.  Maybe the 3rd Childe Morgan book will go into at least a little of how she ended up loathing what she was so much. 
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: derynifanatic64 on September 30, 2007, 01:42:21 pm
The Camberian Council also mentions that Jehana is also related to Lewys ap Norfal.  Norfal's daughter was married to Sief MacAthan and was having an affair with Donal Haldane resulting in the birth of Krispin.  The Council hinted that Jehana was not aware of her relationship to Norfal, but maybe she was?
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Braniana on October 05, 2007, 11:59:54 pm
Thought I remembered reading somewhere (maybe on alt.books.deryni) that one has to go back prior to the interregnum to find the common ancestor between Jehana and Lewys.  Could be wrong, but that's what I recall.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Adam on December 22, 2007, 10:33:36 pm
Jehena is Lewys' Great Grand Niece.

The Deryni blood connection in the Haldane line is interesting, however I think it may be near irrelevant in the long run. Not to diminish the great research done because I think it paints a good picture that despite an interegnum and a number of conflicts over magic, the Haldanes have often ignored the stigma when it came to picking their spouses. However, in one of the books there was an add-on piece about the genetics of the Deryni where it listed that the Chromosomes determine the Deryni or not. It was shown there that the Deryni gift is passed through only the X chromosome. That would determine that if the father was a deryni he had only a 50/50 chance of passing his Deryni abilities on to a child if the mother was human. However because it is the X chromosome, any child by a Deryni mother would inherit it, thus Jehena being Deryni in fact guaranteed that Kelson would bear the blood. Alaric and Duncan, despite their life time of stigma would be as full a Deryni as any other. True to Kelson as well, who in fact may have been above most Deryni as his abilities were not only genetic but he also had the full power of the Haldane knowledge and power. I sadly don't have mu collection available to me right now but I will amend with the book that has the Gene breakdown, or if someone else has read it and remembers. A level of ability might be as much nurture as nature. Matyas Furstan's training took him past his brothers magically. Cathan MacRorie never seemed to show the relative power of his brother or sister.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: BishopCullen on January 08, 2008, 11:54:04 pm
another possibility makes me amend my earlier statement.  most likely, cinhil married deryni.  cambers ward, megan de cameron.  i find no proof positive that she was deryni, but if she was, here is where is enters the House of Haldane.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: the Bee on January 09, 2008, 10:49:27 am
 :) You're probably thinking of KK's article "On the Genetics of Deryni Inheritance," in High Deryni.  In the original version, there was another gene, carried on the Y chromosome, that enabled men to assume Deryni-like powers.  This is the gene that Cinhil and his male descendants possessed.  The new, revised edition of High Deryni may have modified this; I haven't seen it yet.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Braniana on January 09, 2008, 11:45:00 pm
I was pretty sure I remembered that Megan was human.  With the Deryni Festils in power when her parents died, it would explain why her wardship (as an heiress) was given to a Deryni like Camber, rather than to her uncle Bayvel de Cameron.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: mikegeo on July 18, 2008, 01:18:30 am
Tracing back to the beginning of the Haldane line, Kelson was probably 60% deryni without taking into account the Haldane powers.  My guess is by Kelson's time most of the royal families have a least some deryni blood.

Augarin
Caldora (unknown, most likely human)

Llaric (son or Augarin)
Sidonie Quinnell (human)

Ryons (son of Llaric (or Dolon or Jestyn)
Raphaela Furstan (Deryni)

Bearand (son or Ryon)
Aisling (unknown, but most likely human)

Ifor (son of Bearand)
Nuala (unknown)

Aidan (son of Ifor)
Avis (human)

Alroy (son of Aidan)
Nellwyn (human)

Cinhil (son of Alroy)
Megan (human)

Rhys (son of Cinhil)
Michaela (deryni)

Uthyr (son of Rhys)
Grania (human)

Cluim
Swynbeth (1/4 Deryni)

Urien
Jaroni (Deryni, from the same royal family that leads to Azim and other known deryni)

Malcom
Roisiam (human)

Donal
Richeldis (human, but because she is also of a royal house probably has some deryni blood)

Brion
Jehana (Deryin)

Kelson

 
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: lenni on July 26, 2008, 04:08:51 pm
However, in one of the books there was an add-on piece about
the genetics of the Deryni where it listed that the Chromosomes
determine the Deryni or not. It was shown there that the Deryni
gift is passed through only the X chromosome.

<snip>

I sadly don't have mu collection available to me right now but I
will amend with the book that has the Gene breakdown, or if
someone else has read it and remembers.

It was an appendix in High Deryni.


A level of ability might be as much nurture as nature. Matyas
Furstan's training took him past his brothers magically. Cathan
MacRorie never seemed to show the relative power of his brother
or sister.

It has been speculated among the fans that there are the X' (Deryni) and Y' (Haldane) genes wich act as on/off switches.  Furthermore, there are other genes which carry your Deryni or Haldane potentials.

If you have the X' gene, then you can use Deryni powers.  If you have the Y' gene, then you can use Haldane powers, if you've gone through the necessary assumption of powers.

Your "potential" genes determine how powerful your Deryni powers could be (with the appropriate study and ractice!).  So even if you don't have the "on switch" (X' and/or Y'), you can pass on potential.


Kathleen
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: lenni on July 26, 2008, 04:45:09 pm
Tracing back to the beginning of the Haldane line, Kelson was probably 60% deryni without taking into account the Haldane powers.  My guess is by Kelson's time most of the royal families have a least some deryni blood.

<snip>

Uthyr (son of Rhys)
Grania (human)


Grania was part-Deryni.  Her mother's Deryni powers were blocked.  I believe that Grania was an 1/8 Deryni.


Kathleen
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: BalanceTheEnergies on January 31, 2009, 08:33:36 pm
Quote
Maybe the 3rd Childe Morgan book will go into at least a little of how she [Jehana] ended up loathing what she was so much. 

There's a allusion to a fanatical nun/mother superior in her educational background in The King's Justice (I forget precisely where). And doesn't Azim regret not spending more time in the Bregmani court when he bumps into her chaplain?
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: derynifanatic64 on March 26, 2009, 07:26:53 pm
Either Jehana's education while growing up was spiked with vicious anti-Deryni propaganda or some bad Deryni committed a horrific crime in Bremagne that helped to shape/form her hatred for Deryni.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Elkhound on March 30, 2009, 12:49:21 pm
Either Jehana's education while growing up was spiked with vicious anti-Deryni propaganda or some bad Deryni committed a horrific crime in Bremagne that helped to shape/form her hatred for Deryni.

Or both.  If she had been raised anti-Deryni and had begun to question it, then some horrible misuse of Deryni power occured in the neighborhood, the andi-Deryni teachers would have said, "See?  What did we tell you?"
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: tenworld on April 15, 2009, 04:56:03 pm
either way she must have been blocked when young - she could not have suppressed something like that especially with Arilan and other Deryni around her. 

but then we still need to understand why Arilan and the council have forgotten blocking was possile.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Elkhound on April 15, 2009, 11:14:19 pm
either way she must have been blocked when young - she could not have suppressed something like that especially with Arilan and other Deryni around her. 

but then we still need to understand why Arilan and the council have forgotten blocking was possile.

What if she had the blocking gene and whatever the trauma was made her self-block?
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: tenworld on April 16, 2009, 09:55:02 am
that's an interesting suggestion, self-blocking.  fits with post traumatic stress syndrome.  maybe a spell that went horribly wrong?

now the question is, did she self-unblock due to the stress of seeing her son in mortal danger or was someone around at the coronation with the ability to block/unblock?
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: derynifanatic64 on April 17, 2009, 07:24:32 pm
At Kelson's coronation, Jehana tried to use her powers on Charissa and failed miserably.  Charissa taunted Jehana with her pathetic attempt at magic by denying herself use of her powers for so long.  Instead of someone blocking her powers or blocking herself, maybe Jehana found religion, became "born-again", and decided to stop all magical training and live as "human" only.

Now with Barrett's help as her teacher and husband, Jehana will receive the training she denied herself for so long.  She will then be able to stop being ashamed about her Deryni heritage.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: BalanceTheEnergies on April 20, 2009, 05:29:39 am
Derynifanatic64's point is important. Most Deryni (other than Haldanes) must be trained to use their powers; Jehana wasn't trained, and therefore was no match for Charissa, despite her maternal desperation. In this context, it might be wise to recall Dhugal's example; he was totally unaware of his own abilities (attributing his touch with animals to the Second Sight known to other borderers), and he could not lower his shields for some time after Kelson discovered them. The question of blocking need not arise.

Of course, there may be Haldane ancestors who were blocked when the "cult" was active, and it may be difficult or impossible to trace them subsequently. After all, the point of the exercise was to hide those people and their Deryni heritage from the bloody minded regents and their clerical allies.

As for tenworld's question about the lack of knowledge on the Camberian Council, I can't say I'm really surprised by that. They don't know much about healing either, aside from knowing that it was done. They don't seem inclined to really investigate the matter very well--recall that one excuse for making Morgan and Duncan liable to arcane challenge was to resolve the question of their healing abilities (to my mind, a poor excuse on Laran's part)--why didn't they simply ask them? Perhaps, just as the pure blood prejudice interfered with their thinking on that matter, it also interfered with other inquires--even stifling them before they could be made. Blocking could also be a sensitive subject, considering how some expressed dismay at the possibility of killing Krispin MacAthan in his crib to forestall the danger his parentage posed in their eyes. The blocking itself was also an extremely rare talent, stumbled upon by accident in period fraught with danger. What records were left? How long did those records survive? If they are still extant, where are they?
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Elkhound on April 20, 2009, 09:26:34 am


Now with Barrett's help as her teacher and husband, Jehana will receive the training she denied herself for so long.  She will then be able to stop being ashamed about her Deryni heritage.

How does Kelson feel about Barrett as a stepfather?
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Shiral on April 20, 2009, 06:40:24 pm


Now with Barrett's help as her teacher and husband, Jehana will receive the training she denied herself for so long.  She will then be able to stop being ashamed about her Deryni heritage.

How does Kelson feel about Barrett as a stepfather?

We don't really know, at this point.  If he consented to the match, his feeling  toward Barrett is at least one of acceptance, and perhaps something friendlier.  For one thing, Kelson is not a child, and it's not a case of  "What is that man doing in MY father's place?"  Enough time has passed since Brion's death that there's no question of unseemly haste on either Barrett's part or Jehana's. There may be some gratitude toward Barrett in play, also.  A mellow Jehana is a much easier woman to live with than a Jehana who's freaking out about something every minute.

My speculation is that first, Kelson wants his mother to be happy, and he can see that Barrett does make her happy. Secondly, he gets on well enough personally with Barrett so that there are no major personality clashes between them when they meet.   Thirdly, he trusts Barrett as a Camberian Councilor to use his powers responsibly. (I personally think Kelson's taking a bit of a risk, there, considering that his relationsihp with the CC isn't always cuddly.)  Another possibility is that with Kelson starting out his own married life, he's glad to have Jehana happily occupied elsewhere creating a new home for herself.  That gives him some private time with Araxie, and also allows Araxie to settle into her new role as Queen and consort without having to compete, subtly or overtly, with Jehana. 

All the same, Jehana's wanting to marry Barrett--a Deryni AND a Camberian Councilor, might have been a bit of a shock for him....

Melissa
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: derynifanatic64 on April 20, 2009, 07:26:33 pm
Kelson's relations with the Camberian Council took a hit when he refused a seat on the Council.  Tiercel and Conall talked about Kelson's decision in QSC and the Council was shocked at Kelson's rebuff.  The Council had hoped to gain some control over Kelson, but Kelson did not want them to have any control over him.  Maybe Kelson and Barrett might get together one day to try to smooth over relations with the Council and then maybe Kelson could decide to join if another offer is ever put forth.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Elkhound on April 21, 2009, 12:29:07 pm
Quote
All the same, Jehana's wanting to marry Barrett--a Deryni AND a Camberian Councilor, might have been a bit of a shock for him....

Melissa

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Jehana have a child with Barrett later?  A Deryni half-sibling, especially when one is grown and probably about to become a father himself would be a shock, too.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: JulianneTK on April 21, 2009, 01:08:27 pm
Yup. Jehana has a child with Barrett. I looked it up in the Codex.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: derynifanatic64 on November 22, 2010, 06:24:24 pm
The Codex said that Jehana and Barrett will have a daughter together.  With a former Queen of Gwynedd for a mother and a Camberian Councillor as a father, that little girl will most likely be a powerful Deryni mage (or whatever the female equivalent for mage is) when she grows up.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: tenworld on November 22, 2010, 07:07:31 pm
> "whatever the female equivalent for mage is when she grows up."

Magette

Womage

Lady Mage

Magess

No P.C. in those times :)
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Evie on November 22, 2010, 11:49:54 pm
> "whatever the female equivalent for mage is when she grows up."

Magette

Womage

Lady Mage

Magess

No P.C. in those times :)

Magnet.   ;D
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Elkhound on November 23, 2010, 01:55:16 pm
I think the word you are looking for is 'sorceress' or 'enchantress'; or, if she goes bad, 'witch.'
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: derynifanatic64 on November 23, 2010, 09:48:35 pm
Or what the Codex would call Charissa and other Deryni who use their powers for evil--"Spawn of the Devil".

Sorceress/Enchantress should be used for female Deryni who use their powers for good.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: tenworld on November 24, 2010, 03:44:58 pm
I wasnt looking for a word, I was just having fun with the English  language.

besides "sorceress" is the exact female form of "sorcerer" and Mage implies more scientist than magician, deriving I believe from Magi, who were astrologists when that was respectable.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Evie on November 24, 2010, 04:00:42 pm
Well, if you consider that Deryni magic is the "respectable" sort (even if some folk like Loris think otherwise), and in a way the arcane workings could be looked at as a sort of science/art, maybe a feminine version of "magus" would be in order?  Though I'm not the Latin scholar around here, so someone else would need to weigh in on what that might be.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Elkhound on November 30, 2010, 09:45:50 pm
Well, if you consider that Deryni magic is the "respectable" sort (even if some folk like Loris think otherwise), and in a way the arcane workings could be looked at as a sort of science/art, maybe a feminine version of "magus" would be in order?  Though I'm not the Latin scholar around here, so someone else would need to weigh in on what that might be.

In Latin it would be 'Maga.' 
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Camber on February 25, 2011, 10:26:43 pm

In Latin it would be 'Maga.' 
Not being a Latin scholar, we could turn Christendom on its head by having Magae instead of Magi.  Wouldn't that just make Lorus', et al, head spin?

Valentius,
whose Leukemia is STILL in remission and
   is going back to work soon

Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: derynifanatic64 on February 26, 2011, 09:10:17 am

Valentius,
whose Leukemia is STILL in remission and
   is going back to work soon


Glad to see things are going well.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Evie on February 26, 2011, 11:28:49 am
Glad you're on the mend, Valentius!
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Elkhound on April 26, 2011, 12:45:24 pm

In Latin it would be 'Maga.' 
Not being a Latin scholar, we could turn Christendom on its head by having Magae instead of Magi.  Wouldn't that just make Lorus', et al, head spin?

Valentius,
whose Leukemia is STILL in remission and
   is going back to work soon

Masculine plural is used for a mixed group, so it isn't impossible that there was at least one woman among the Magi.  We don't know how many, just that there were at least three (ancient Greek had both a dual and plural; modern Greek, I understand, uses the dual only for things that come in pairs [shoes, gloves, eyes, kidneys, etc.]), and three gifts are mentioned.


[/quote]
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Raksha the Demon on April 05, 2018, 08:55:51 pm
Quote
Maybe the 3rd Childe Morgan book will go into at least a little of how she [Jehana] ended up loathing what she was so much. 

There's a allusion to a fanatical nun/mother superior in her educational background in The King's Justice (I forget precisely where). And doesn't Azim regret not spending more time in the Bregmani court when he bumps into her chaplain?


I thought that the allusion to the fanatical mother superior in Jehana's background was in the Codex:  The Princess Jehane was educated at the Convent of Saint-Elie near MIllefleurs; the Abbess of this establishment, one Mother Rohane, was a notorious Deryni-hater. 

I don't recall any mention of Jehana being tutored by someone who hated Deryni in the books themselves.  As I've said elsewhere, it's a bit odd that the King of Bremagne, who seems to have had no problems with Brion's Deryni page keeping company with his two younger daughters, and who married a woman who was a Deryni herself (or blocked, and descended from Deryni who passed down the St. Gabriel medallion/prayer beads), would have allowed his oldest daughter to come under the influence of a Mother Superior who was known to hate Deryni.  Jehana is referred to as a "full Deryni" in Deryni Rising, but no one, including the Camberian Council, seems to have any inkling that both her parents were Deryni, until Jehana cuts loose at Kelson's coronation. 

I certainly wish that The King's Deryni had shed more light on how Jehana came to hate and fear the Deryni, but it really did not; since it was from Alaric's point of view and he didn't see much of her or talk with her at that time.

Does anyone know if the Codex is considered completely canonical; and to what extent KK contributed to this great reference tome?
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: DesertRose on April 05, 2018, 09:11:46 pm
Quote
Maybe the 3rd Childe Morgan book will go into at least a little of how she [Jehana] ended up loathing what she was so much. 

There's a allusion to a fanatical nun/mother superior in her educational background in The King's Justice (I forget precisely where). And doesn't Azim regret not spending more time in the Bregmani court when he bumps into her chaplain?


I thought that the allusion to the fanatical mother superior in Jehana's background was in the Codex:  The Princess Jehane was educated at the Convent of Saint-Elie near MIllefleurs; the Abbess of this establishment, one Mother Rohane, was a notorious Deryni-hater. 

I don't recall any mention of Jehana being tutored by someone who hated Deryni in the books themselves.  As I've said elsewhere, it's a bit odd that the King of Bremagne, who seems to have had no problems with Brion's Deryni page keeping company with his two younger daughters, and who married a woman who was a Deryni herself (or blocked, and descended from Deryni who passed down the St. Gabriel medallion/prayer beads), would have allowed his oldest daughter to come under the influence of a Mother Superior who was known to hate Deryni.  Jehana is referred to as a "full Deryni" in Deryni Rising, but no one, including the Camberian Council, seems to have any inkling that both her parents were Deryni, until Jehana cuts loose at Kelson's coronation. 

I certainly wish that The King's Deryni had shed more light on how Jehana came to hate and fear the Deryni, but it really did not; since it was from Alaric's point of view and he didn't see much of her or talk with her at that time.

Does anyone know if the Codex is considered completely canonical; and to what extent KK contributed to this great reference tome?

As far as Codex is concerned, the general consensus is that it's mostly canonical in that the major points (most dates of birth/marriage/death, and dates of major battles and so forth) are correct, but KK is fond of calling certain additions to the Codex "Rob-isms," (a reference to her co-author on the project, Rob Reginald) because he went off on flights of fancy at times, mostly with minor points like names of people who never appeared in the canonical novels at the time they wrote Codex and also with things like names of illnesses that caused the deaths of minor or unseen characters.

Rob Reginald passed away a few years ago.  (The forum post about his death is here:  http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,1170.0.html )

At the time of his death, I believe that he and KK were considering a third edition of Codex, possibly available on a static website that could be updated as needed and would also (ideally) be searchable, since it is an awful lot of information, after all.  I'm not entirely sure where that project is at the moment.  It seems like there was a concern about his widow being able to locate her husband's notes and materials and get them to KK?  And there's also the fact that KK's non-writing life has been throwing a lot of obstacles at her, so I really don't know.

I'd like to see at least an e-edition of Codex, because most e-readers/apps will allow you to search, and that would make life a lot easier for research nerds like me.  :D
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Raksha the Demon on April 05, 2018, 10:45:42 pm
So are the births and names of the future (unborn as of the end of King Kelson's Bride)
children of Alaric, Nigel, Kelson, Jehana, Matyas, and Teymuraz canon or "Rob-isms"?  I do hope that Kelson names his son "Javan"; it would be a wonderful homage to a boy king who was as strong and determined as Kelson but was cut down by treachery.

It would be wonderful to have an updated, e-version of the Codex.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Laurna on April 06, 2018, 02:58:49 am
I would consider all the information in the Codex as "canonical", in the way that KK has her name as co author and has approved the information there. In chat once, I did ask her if most of the info was her writing, she responded with a "yes". My understanding is that she gave RR all her hereditary charts, events and time lines lists, and places and descriptions, then he separated the information into individual entries. RR filled in a few gaps to make it constant. In one or two spots (Alaric and Richenda's 2nd daughter and Kelson's twin daughters)  the names are different from the time line to the individual entries. The names in the time line are KK's corrected choice. There are also few entries that RR added for humor. Sir Kale comes to mind.


By the way, if you are wondering about the answer to the heading of this thread, there is further discussion about the Haldane Deryni inheritance, in this later thread.  http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php?topic=1552.msg13391#msg13391
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: DesertRose on April 06, 2018, 09:21:12 am
So are the births and names of the future (unborn as of the end of King Kelson's Bride)
children of Alaric, Nigel, Kelson, Jehana, Matyas, and Teymuraz canon or "Rob-isms"?  I do hope that Kelson names his son "Javan"; it would be a wonderful homage to a boy king who was as strong and determined as Kelson but was cut down by treachery.

It would be wonderful to have an updated, e-version of the Codex.

I think the birth dates and names of the children born post-KKB are canon; what I meant by "minor points like names of people who never appeared in the canonical novels at the time they wrote Codex and also with things like names of illnesses that caused the deaths of minor or unseen characters" was basically the people who appear only in Codex, who lived between the end of The Bastard Prince and the beginning of Deryni Rising (since when the second edition of Codex was written, I believe KK was in the process of writing In The King's Service).
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: Evie on April 06, 2018, 10:32:17 am
So are the births and names of the future (unborn as of the end of King Kelson's Bride)
children of Alaric, Nigel, Kelson, Jehana, Matyas, and Teymuraz canon or "Rob-isms"?  I do hope that Kelson names his son "Javan"; it would be a wonderful homage to a boy king who was as strong and determined as Kelson but was cut down by treachery.

It would be wonderful to have an updated, e-version of the Codex.

I think the birth dates and names of the children born post-KKB are canon; what I meant by "minor points like names of people who never appeared in the canonical novels at the time they wrote Codex and also with things like names of illnesses that caused the deaths of minor or unseen characters" was basically the people who appear only in Codex, who lived between the end of The Bastard Prince and the beginning of Deryni Rising (since when the second edition of Codex was written, I believe KK was in the process of writing In The King's Service).

Rob-isms would include never-seen background characters such as Ewan's wife and daughters.  We know from the canon that he was married since he has a legitimate heir and I think he mentions a wife on at least one occasion, but his wife is never named in the novels, nor are any daughters. However, since a legitimate heir means Ewan was at least married at some point, and since a marriage that lasts more than a few years in a society with little if any effective birth control would produce several children, including (in all likelihood) at least a few daughters as well as spare sons, those details seem to have been left up to Rob to flesh out.  And Rob's sense of humor and love of puns sometimes got the better of him when it comes to his NPC character names.   ;D
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: LauraS on April 12, 2018, 02:45:48 pm

[/quote]

Rob-isms would include never-seen background characters such as Ewan's wife and daughters.  We know from the canon that he was married since he has a legitimate heir and I think he mentions a wife on at least one occasion, but his wife is never named in the novels, nor are any daughters. However, since a legitimate heir means Ewan was at least married at some point, and since a marriage that lasts more than a few years in a society with little if any effective birth control would produce several children, including (in all likelihood) at least a few daughters as well as spare sons, those details seem to have been left up to Rob to flesh out.  And Rob's sense of humor and love of puns sometimes got the better of him when it comes to his NPC character names.   ;D
[/quote]
Like "Kermit von Frogy" of Orsal, or some variation thereof ;) . I always meant to go back and re-read Codex and put a post-it by those "Robisms" that were pure comedic relief.
Title: Re: The Deryni blood in the Haldane line
Post by: DesertRose on April 12, 2018, 06:57:19 pm
Like "Kermit von Frogy" of Orsal, or some variation thereof ;) . I always meant to go back and re-read Codex and put a post-it by those "Robisms" that were pure comedic relief.

If you ever feel up to doing that and sharing the comic relief, that'd be great fun that I know I'd appreciate, and I imagine I'm not the only one around here who would enjoy it, either!