The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => Other Deryni Books => Codex Derynianus => Topic started by: derynifanatic64 on May 19, 2007, 02:10:16 pm

Title: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: derynifanatic64 on May 19, 2007, 02:10:16 pm
I bought the Codex (2nd version) earlier this year and have found it to be a treasure trove of information.  This book is a must for all Deryni fans.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: BishopCullen on May 21, 2007, 06:34:41 pm
Agreed.  Have read it several times.  Truely a treasure trove.  A must for everyone of us.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Ursa on May 25, 2007, 04:15:39 pm
Having been away from the Deryni I didn't even know that the Codex had finally been republished. I immediately went on several used book sites and found a copy at a Kentucky store for just under $5.00 plus shipping. I await with bated breath its arrival!
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Obiwan3 on July 15, 2007, 09:03:54 am
Ursa, you won't be disappointed. And you made quite a deal on it. Congrats!
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: BishopCullen on November 14, 2007, 06:17:05 pm
Found an OOPS!!!  Check the death information on Marie de Corwyn.  There are 2 listings!  First listing: 1088, listed as Lady Marie de Corwyn, dies Sept. 2, age 17 years.  Second listing: 1089, Nov 2.  Marie Lady de Corwyn dies of the pox, age 18 years.  I think the second one is wrong.  hmmmm.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Braniana on November 14, 2007, 08:59:46 pm
I've come across a few errata myself.  When I have the time (make that IF), I might consider posting what I've found.  But don't look for that anytime soon.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: morgan on February 09, 2008, 07:18:41 am
Can anyone explain me what the Codex is about? It's a story book or only a sort of "Deryni dictionary"?
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Obiwan3 on February 09, 2008, 08:27:55 am
It contains an alphabetical listing of most everyone & any place mentioned in the series. There's also a chronological history of Gwynedd, its liturgical calendar, royal geneologies and maps of the XI Kingdoms. Plus brief bios of the authors and a listing of their books & short stories related to the series. I cheated, pulled my well-thumbed copy out to read the contents. It's in Latin & Greek, too.  ;D

Just pulling your leg. There are captions interspersed, but the body of the book is in English. HTH.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: lenni on February 10, 2008, 09:08:02 pm
The thing that I like best about the Codex is that it explains how various people are related.  Of course, you have to do quite a bit of reading to find out some of the relationships.  Exactly how Jehana is related to Lewys ap Norfal is not discovered in a single entry!  Not all is revealed, however.  There is not enough, for me at any rate, in the Codex about the Arilan and de Courcy families, among others.

Kahtleen
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: morgan on February 12, 2008, 11:49:53 am
Thanks.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: derynifanatic64 on February 28, 2008, 07:09:22 pm
lenni,

The entry for Lewys ap Norfal states that he was a great grand-uncle of Jehana.  It just does not specify exactly how he is Jehana's great grand-uncle.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: lenni on February 29, 2008, 04:23:32 pm
DeryniFanatic64,

lenni,

The entry for Lewys ap Norfal states that he was a great grand-uncle of Jehana.  It just does not specify exactly how he is Jehana's great grand-uncle.

You have to look at several entries to determine exactly how Jehanna and Lewys are related.  I think that Jehana's entry added something - gave more information about her mother's ancestry, I believe.

The Gwynedd data for my genealogy program is on strike right now, so I can't pin down the relationship exactly.

At a minimum, you have to look at Lewys' and Jehana's entries.  Maybe more.

Kathleen (lenni)
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: derynifanatic64 on February 29, 2008, 06:34:59 pm
The entry for Jehana lists her maternal grandparents.  As her great grand-uncle, Norfal is most likely the brother of 1 of Jehana's grandfathers or the brother of 1 of her grandmothers.  Or a brother of one of her 8 great grandparents.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: lenni on February 29, 2008, 10:23:40 pm
DeryniFanatic64,

The entry for Jehana lists her maternal grandparents.  As her great grand-uncle, Norfal is most likely the brother of 1 of Jehana's grandfathers or the brother of 1 of her grandmothers.  Or a brother of one of her 8 great grandparents.

I was able to restore the data file from backup (YEAH! for backups!).

Régnier I Buyenne-Furstán -- Jolanthe d'Albéric
+ Murielle Buyenne-Furstán -- Tiraquell de Jordanet (1)
  + Jordana de Jordanet -- Isarn I d'Avoine (1)
    + Rosaura d'Avoine -- Meyric II de Besançon (2)
      + Jehana, i.e., Jehane-Julienne-Adélaïde de Besançon (2)
+ Louÿs Régnier Gaspard Buyenne-Furstán (aka Lewys ap Norfal) (3)

Entries from Codex Derynianus II:
1 - Isarn II Anaclète Jehan Flocon d'Avoine, Sovereign Prince of Logréine
2 - Jehana, i.e., Jehane-Julienne-Adélaïde de Besançon, Princesse de Bremagne
3 - Lewys ap Norfal, Lord du Joux.

Kathleen (lenni)
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: BishopCullen on March 07, 2008, 09:03:28 am
Very nice job tracking that down.  try this one.  ansel macrorie's later family name became macathan.  trace from him to sief macathan, father of krispin.  i think we need an updated codex.  there is no mention of sief, or many others of the childe morgan.  oliver de nore is there, but his brother septimus is not.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Braniana on March 07, 2008, 10:38:47 pm
I would imagine there will be a third codex edition after the last Childe Morgan book is published (at least I hope there is).  There's probably a lot of information KK has developed about those families that would be spoilers if published while the trilogy is still in progress.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: morgan on March 08, 2008, 08:52:30 am
I'm still a little...perplex! I read that "The childe Morgan" is about of 2001-2002: this is the 1st book of a trilogy but the other 2 isn't out after so many years?
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: lenni on March 08, 2008, 12:14:08 pm
Morgan,

I'm still a little...perplex! I read that "The childe Morgan" is about of 2001-2002: this is the 1st book of a trilogy but the other 2 isn't out after so many years?

The Childe Morgan trilogy consists of three books:
In the King's Service (US hardcover 11/2003 - according to Amazon.com)
Childe Morgan (US hardcover 12/2006 - according to Amazon.com)
a third one that Ms. Kurtz is working on (I hope!).

Kathleen
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Raksha the Demon on September 27, 2014, 04:09:26 pm
Very nice job tracking that down.  try this one.  ansel macrorie's later family name became macathan.  trace from him to sief macathan, father of krispin.  i think we need an updated codex.  there is no mention of sief, or many others of the childe morgan.  oliver de nore is there, but his brother septimus is not.


Sief and Jessamy (and her brother Morian) are mentioned in Lewys ap Norfal's entry, but there is no mention of Krispin, or of Sief/Jessamy's daughters. 

I bought the Codex several weeks ago, it is indeed a treasure-trove!  But it badly needs updating.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Evie on September 27, 2014, 05:04:20 pm
KK and Rob Reginald had planned on a 3rd Edition of the Codex in an electronic, updatable format, but I don't know how Rob's recent death might affect those plans.  KK said something recently about needing to get in touch with his widow to see how far along those updates were and if she could get the files so that she could find someone else to help her work on the project.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Raksha the Demon on September 27, 2014, 06:56:53 pm
I hope that KK manages to get those files, an electronic and updatable format would be perfect for a new Codex.  What a shame that Rob Reginald passed away.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: drakensis on October 04, 2014, 04:24:17 pm
I've certainly found the Codex fascinating to read.

There's a lot of history unexplored except for in the Codex.

And as usual with such things it's given me ideas...
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Laurna on October 04, 2014, 09:52:11 pm
I love the Codex. It is amazing that KK has made notes on so much information about her world. A hundred times more than than what makes it into the story lines.  I freely admit that it was the Codex which inspired my research and than gave me several ideas. The Codex is sitting at my elbow, right now. Anytime I have a question about a particular person or time, I read about it there first. When playing in KK's world, I have tried to be accurate to the facts as they are stated there.

I was saddened to hear about Robert's passing. I really hope KK makes a new edition that has all her new books in it. I would buy that in a heart beat.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: drakensis on October 05, 2014, 01:10:56 am
And from my reading this morning - a page or two a day - I finally answered the question of how Duncan's descended from Camber. (Rhysel's daughter married the second Duke of Cassan, Duncan's great-great-great-great-grandfather). Well, probably - it's possible the Duke married more than once, that isn't stated. Assuming this was just one marriage for Duke Tammaron this would also yield another Camber descendant: a certain Sean Lord Derry is Duncan's fifth cousin once removed - and descended from the very same Duke of Cassan!

I'm sure this is well known now but it's interesting none-the-less.

I've not found a line of descent for Alaric Morgan so far but it's hardly ruled out. I'm mapping out the inter-twining family trees and there's plenty of scope for a MacAthan to have married a Duke of Corwyn or Earl of Lendour.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Raksha the Demon on October 05, 2014, 03:29:24 pm
I wondered if Sief and Jessamy's daughters are the last descendants of Cathan MacRorie.  And of course, I wonder what happened to the girls. 

Of course, if Morgan is descended from the MacAthan branch of Camber's heirs, then he's a descendant of Cathan too. 

I wonder why the Camberian Council has not kept track of the heirs of the man for whom they are named and whose legacy they supposedly venerate.  You'd think they'd have set down the bloodlines of Camber's heirs for centuries with great determination.  Makes me wonder whether there was some kind of post-Joram conflict between the MacAthans and Evaine's descendants; and if the Servants have some hidden records...
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: drakensis on October 06, 2014, 02:34:57 am
It seems Morgan's descended on his father's side from the relevant Duke of Cassan, so there's no indication of MacAthan blood in his family history. Stumbled on that one.

Amusingly this means the much-maligned human parent the Camberian Council deplore so much for Duncan and Morgan in both cases has the MacRorie ancestry.

The fact that Rhysel Thuryn married a human and the descendants don't appear to be Deryni may be among the reasons the Camberian Council are unhappy about Deryni marrying humans: they know the Deryni are depleted in numbers since the purges of the 10th century and seeing some of their already few bloodlines thinned out and lost to them can't be something they're happy about.

(I do have some sympathy not just for the Council but for the Furstans and Festils: through the 9th century the Torenthi hegemony over much of the Eleven Kingdoms brought the Deryni were to the heights of their numbers and inflience. There were genuine efforts to co-exist with humans and restrain abuses. It isn't just ambition that sparked them to launch four major invasions from 905 to 1025.)
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: NavaWazr on November 09, 2014, 05:40:29 pm
This discussion triggered me to look for a copy, and Blessed Saint Someone's staff got in touch with eBay.... so my copy should be arriving by end of this week.  Once I have it I hope to find out who the patron saint of books would be...
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Evie on November 09, 2014, 07:01:56 pm
Saint Librarius?   ;D
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Aerlys on November 10, 2014, 01:04:45 pm
There really isn't a patron saint of books, per se, but there are the following:

*Patron saint of authors: St. Francis de Sales

*Patron saints of booksellers: St. John of God, St. Thomas Aquinas

*Patron Saint of Book trade: St. John of God

*Patron saints of Bookbinders: St. Celestine V (pope), St. John of God

*Patron saints of Printers: St. Augustine, St. Genesius, St. John of God

And while he is not specifically a patron of publishers, St. Maximilian Kolbe (a personal favorite) bravely continued running a publishing house from his monastery, despite Nazi suppression. He is the patron of journalists.

So, NavaWazr, any one of these probably helped you out, but my guess would be St. John of God.  :)
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Evie on November 10, 2014, 01:16:19 pm
*Patron saint of authors: St. Francis de Sales

This one always brings a smile to my face, because even though I'm pretty sure that surname is pronounced differently from how we'd say it in English, I'm pretty sure most authors (published ones, at least) would be thrilled to have more Sales on their side....   ;D
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Elkhound on November 12, 2014, 10:54:49 am
St. Jerome is the patron of Librarians and Translators.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: tenworld on November 17, 2014, 09:35:56 am

The fact that Rhysel Thuryn married a human and the descendants don't appear to be Deryni may be among the reasons the Camberian Council are unhappy about Deryni marrying humans: they know the Deryni are depleted in numbers since the purges of the 10th century and seeing some of their already few bloodlines thinned out and lost to them can't be something they're happy about.


I think we underestimate that KK built in a way to get around canon problems that always show up in long running series:

the rare ability to turn off Deryni powers (and then alter memories and future behavior).  So eg Rhysel's children could be and probably
were Deryni, and new members of the Council may have been adjusted. We have discussed in the past a hidden inner circle that started with Camber's grandchildren. Or so we thought back in Usenet days.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: revanne on November 17, 2014, 02:06:30 pm
I've always though there were probably far more Deryni than it appears in Deryni Rising but anyone with any possibility of staying hidden would do so. I can't precisely remember but I think that one of Rhysel's motivations in TBP for marrying a human is to ensure a continuing but hidden Deryni presence at court. Which again makes me think that maybe plans were laid down for survival by the group in the Sanctuary - blocking, the founding of St. Keryiell's (sorry wrong spelling), infiltration of Deryni into human bloodlines, the memory of which was destroyed in the trauma/traumas of 948. We definitely need another trilogy.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 27, 2018, 03:55:19 pm
Didn't KK say in one of the introductions or afterwords that the child of a Deryni mother is always Deryni whereas the child of a Deryni father and a human mother has a 50-50 chance of being Deryni?  Or am I remembering canonical Deryni genetics incorrectly?

Rhysel's Thuryn's children by Robert Ainslie would have been full Deryni (despite the Camberian Council's later equivocation about "half-breed" Deryni).  She could have found someone who could suppress the expression of Deryni powers, or her children and descendants could have simply been very, very discreet, as Rhysel herself seems to have been, when in public...
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: DesertRose on March 27, 2018, 05:01:03 pm
Didn't KK say in one of the introductions or afterwords that the child of a Deryni mother is always Deryni whereas the child of a Deryni father and a human mother has a 50-50 chance of being Deryni?  Or am I remembering canonical Deryni genetics incorrectly?

Rhysel's Thuryn's children by Robert Ainslie would have been full Deryni (despite the Camberian Council's later equivocation about "half-breed" Deryni).  She could have found someone who could suppress the expression of Deryni powers, or her children and descendants could have simply been very, very discreet, as Rhysel herself seems to have been, when in public...

In the original edition of either Deryni Rising or Deryni Checkmate (at the end of the book, in either case), KK included an essay about the genetics of Deryni and humans who can be empowered (the Haldanes and others), and then she later changed her mind about how it all works.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Bynw on March 27, 2018, 05:01:47 pm
There was some genetic information like that in an afterward of one of the early books. However it's sense been tossed out as inaccurate.

The only thing we still know for certain with the Deryni and genetics is that female healers are rare.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: lenni on March 27, 2018, 08:06:55 pm
I've always though there were probably far more Deryni than it appears in Deryni Rising but anyone with any possibility of staying hidden would do so. I can't precisely remember but I think that one of Rhysel's motivations in TBP for marrying a human is to ensure a continuing but hidden Deryni presence at court. Which again makes me think that maybe plans were laid down for survival by the group in the Sanctuary - blocking, the founding of St. Keryiell's (sorry wrong spelling), infiltration of Deryni into human bloodlines, the memory of which was destroyed in the trauma/traumas of 948. We definitely need another trilogy.

Oh, yes, we do!!

Lenni
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 28, 2018, 01:45:13 pm
I've always though there were probably far more Deryni than it appears in Deryni Rising but anyone with any possibility of staying hidden would do so. I can't precisely remember but I think that one of Rhysel's motivations in TBP for marrying a human is to ensure a continuing but hidden Deryni presence at court. Which again makes me think that maybe plans were laid down for survival by the group in the Sanctuary - blocking, the founding of St. Keryiell's (sorry wrong spelling), infiltration of Deryni into human bloodlines, the memory of which was destroyed in the trauma/traumas of 948. We definitely need another trilogy.

Rhysel could have married a hidden Deryni, someone whose powers were blocked.  I had the impression that she was strongly attracted to Robert Ainslie when she first met him and that the feelings could have easily blossomed later to love (he's a stand-up guy and also was strongly attracted to her and wanted to court her). 

We need more than one trilogy!  Anyone else want to see a 40-year-old Kelson (as long as he isn't killed off) and his family and other old and new friends confront some new dangers after years of peace?
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: Bynw on March 28, 2018, 01:49:18 pm
We have that already in http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,2134.0.html not canon but still fun.
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: revanne on March 28, 2018, 03:39:43 pm
We have that already in http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,2134.0.html not canon but still fun.

My thoughts exactly Bynw.  Though sometimes it's "Fun, did the man say fun?"  ;D
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: JediMatt1000 on October 22, 2018, 10:05:54 pm
Does the Codex go into any detail about the Gabrilites and Varnarites?
Title: Re: Codex Derynianus.
Post by: drakensis on October 23, 2018, 02:24:25 am
Both orders have entries. To summarise:

Gabrilites (Ordo Sancti Gabrielis). An all Deryni esoteric order founded on 24 March 745 incorporating some pagan traditions. Especially noted for training Healers and considered to provide the most thorough training in that field. Based at St Neots in the south Lendour mountains.

Varanites (Ordo Sancti Varnari). Deryni scholars who split from the Gabrilites around 745 and established a university in Grecotha, training healers. They were noted as more pragmatic and less subtle than the more conservative and philosophical Gabrilites. They may have moved some records to a secret archive before making this move.

The two entries don't mesh entirely but it seems to me that both sprang from the same pre-Christian Deryni tradition but went in two directions as they became religious orders. For reference, 745 would be during the reign of Saint Bearand, the fourth Haldane king. This tends to suggest that the 8th century had Christianity firming up its position in the Eleven Kingdoms and it may previously have been in a relatively weak position outside of the old Byzantum provinces. St Neots would have been well within this region, near the border between Gwynedd and the then independent Mooryn, while Grecotha was in the far north of Gwynedd, near the highlands of both Meara and Kheldour which may have been pagan strongholds given they still have distinct traditions even in Kelson's day.