The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => Other Deryni Books => Codex Derynianus => Topic started by: Elkhound on October 30, 2014, 10:56:41 pm

Title: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Elkhound on October 30, 2014, 10:56:41 pm
. . .and find it interesting. 

First, I've found some people who share the names and some of the biography of primary-world historical figures, but changed just a little to fit into the history and geography of the Dernyverse.

Second, I've found some wonderful plays on words.  For example, a court official called Kale, Lord Pemberly.  If you look at the names of his children. . . well, look it up for yourself.

And, of course, although not a Janeite, the title "Pemberly". . . .
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on October 31, 2014, 10:00:51 am
Yes, the Codex is a treasure trove!  Have lots of fun exploring it.  Some of the information needs to be updated since the latest books have come out (the Childe Morgan books), but KK has hopes for a third edition in an electronic format that will be easy to update with subsequent books, if she can get the original files back from Robert Reginald's widow and find someone else who can help with putting that project together for her.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: tenworld on October 31, 2014, 01:39:00 pm
I'd be happy to work on a team editing this, researching specific topics.  I have a background writing technical articles and editing reports, and as Sir Alaric Clark said, "any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"

I am curious, has any fanfiction made it into the Codex?
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on October 31, 2014, 02:05:13 pm
I believe that the characters and events that were professionally published in Deryni Tales and Deryni Archives, but which were originally published in the Deryni Archives fanzine, ended up in the Codex.  But other than that, no.  On the other hand, several fanfiction characters were inspired by characters who previously only existed in the Codex.  For instance, all of my younger Arilans were named for the children listed under Jamyl Arilan's Codex entry, even though they haven't even been born yet in the canonical books.  (The ones that have been published already, that is.  I can't speak for what might be found in The King's Deryni when it comes out in December.)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 02, 2014, 05:21:24 am
It's an amazing resource. I've started a Deryni fic for NaNoWriMo and pretty much everything I needed for research was right there.

Lest you think I'm kidding, I've a list of 30-40 characters that have never appeared in novels but were right there in the Codex, ready for me to flesh out and use. It's saved me the strain of thinking up names (often the hardest part for me) for characters all over the place.

Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on November 02, 2014, 08:31:25 am
It's an amazing resource. I've started a Deryni fic for NaNoWriMo

That's some happy news to wake up to!  ;D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 08, 2014, 11:00:48 pm
Since I woke absurdly early today I finished some supplementary work for the fic and thought I may as well post it here. Pertinent in that pretty much all of this is information from the Codex, simply presented a little differently:

(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/drakensis/Deryni/HaldaneKings_zpsadd7be6a.png) (http://s1004.photobucket.com/user/drakensis/media/Deryni/HaldaneKings_zpsadd7be6a.png.html)

(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/drakensis/Deryni/MacRorie_zps95319b46.png) (http://s1004.photobucket.com/user/drakensis/media/Deryni/MacRorie_zps95319b46.png.html)

(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/drakensis/Deryni/FestillicPretenders_zps26c8c115.png) (http://s1004.photobucket.com/user/drakensis/media/Deryni/FestillicPretenders_zps26c8c115.png.html)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on November 09, 2014, 10:05:03 am
Cool! If I'm reading these correctly, Kelson's MacRorie descent comes through both sides of his family--via Malcolm Haldane and his heirs on his paternal side, and via Bethra Haldane's marriage to Theofrid III of Bremagne on his mother's. Paired with the Haldane potential that was already present in the Haldane line prior to Swynbeth's marriage into the dynasty, that would seem to make Kelson a double force to be reckoned with.  ;D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 09, 2014, 12:05:36 pm
It's quite possible that Jehana may be descended from Jacan or Fallon royalty as well, which could double-up that side, although I don't think we've enough information on Bremagne genealogy to account for it.

Also Grania MacInnis is grand-daughter of Richeldis MacLean and of course Rhys Michael's wife was Deryni. For the first century or so after the Restoration, the Haldanes were consistently bringing additional Deryni blood into the succession.

For irony, Swynbeth's brothers also have interesting descendants. While Morgan's genealogy lecture in the Bishop's Heir doesn't fit with the other sources in all respects it's confirmed that his paternal grandmother was a sister to a Duke of Cassan - a grandson of Tambert you you see there. Not only is this where he and Duncan get their MacRorie blood, if we accept that Caitrin's children had a claim on Cassan senior to Morgan's then this would have meant that Loris' scheme to replace Haldanes with the House of Quinnell would have simply elevated another branch of the MacRorie descendants. (As it happens the Codex debunks this but Caitrin is still a MacRorie descendant since Cluim had a daughter, not on the charts above, who married a King of Howicce and Caitrin is daughter of a later Howiccean princess).

Oh and Flynn, father of the O'Flynn family there? Mellish O'Flynn's great-great-great-grandson's name is Sean, better known as Derry!
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 09, 2014, 03:11:10 pm
Quote
Oh and Flynn, father of the O'Flynn family there? Mellish O'Flynn's great-great-great-grandson's name is Sean, better known as Derry!
There is a line I had not followed. Sean you've some Deryni blood after all. I thought it should be there but I had not followed it that far.
I have followed most of the Haldane, Morgan, Cynfyn, and Cassan lines as you have listed above. Well done. Flynn's descendents are a new treat.

I have been trying to concentrate on Lady Jerusha Thuryn Drummond. She married Sir Cathan Drummond and had three children. Lady Kyriella, Lord Corwin, Lady Evalina.  Kyriella married Stuart Lord MacAthan whom was the head of the family MacAthan(named from his grandfather Cathan MacRorie), and Sief MacAthan's ancestor. I think this makes Sief, Camber's most direct heir.  I question how many generations are between these two men being as there is nearly 100 years unaccounted for. We do not know what happened to Sief's daughters. I hope we get to find our in the new book.
I am also interested in Jerusha's other two children, and their children. There should be some hidden Healing abilities in this line as well as in Tieg's line.
 
It is almost like playing with Ancestry.com.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 10, 2014, 02:56:55 am
I quite agree at how interesting it is.

In addition to Jerusha and Tieg's descendants, one thing I'm curious to pick up on is how Elinor Howell, Coel Howell and Corban Howell are related. I've a vague recollection that Elinor and Coel may be siblings, but I'm not clear where Corban fits in. The Howells seem to have been a powerful family in their day.

Also looking at the post-Restoration Haldanes, Rhys' sons are half-Deryni through their mother and his grandsons are also half-Deryni since both their parents are half-Deryni. And then Cluim married a quarter-Deryni so his children are 3/8ths Deryni...

I'm beginning to wonder if the Haldane potential actively suppresses normal Deryni talents until the potential is activated. Otherwise I'm not sure how Urien's brother Jashan managed to become a priest given the precautions taken by the Church. He should be almost as vulnerable to Merasha as Morgan or Duncan are. Perhaps the merasha-testing was something that arose later?
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 10, 2014, 03:08:12 am
Drakensis, I am sorry to point this out. But in looking up "Derry" in the Codex, Lord Flynn Fitz-Arthur Quinnell is the Second son of Tambert I, Duke of Cassan. Sorry, Lord Flynn is Duke Tammarron's younger brother instead of his son.  I keep trying to tie Sean to the genealogy but I have not found it yet. 

Quote
I'm beginning to wonder if the Haldane potential actively suppresses normal Deryni talents until the potential is activated. Otherwise I'm not sure how Urien's brother Jashan managed to become a priest given the precautions taken by the Church.

That is a very enlightened thought. Interesting idea.

Swynbeth is Duke Tammarron's daughter by Tiphane Ainslie(daughter of Rhysel Thuryn and Robert Ainslie.) I think Robert is human (please correct me if I am wrong), causing Tiphane to be only 1/2 Deryni.  Tiphane marries the Duke of Cassan  who is human. Therefore, I believe Their children are human,  ie Swynbeth is human and does not pass the outward Deryni traits to the Haldane line. However, recessive traits may remain hidden until more Deryni blood is added to the Haldane blood line.  The same could be said for Fane Fitz-Arthur Quinnel who becomes the next Duke of Cassan. The recessive Deryni traits (such as Healing)stay hidden until a 100 years later when the Deryni twin sister Vera (de Corwyn)Howard McLain(Cynfyn) marries the Duke of Cassan to give birth to Duncan. 
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 11, 2014, 03:00:24 am
Hmm. You're right about Derry. That's a shame (the lack of connection, not your correcting me, for which I thank you humbly). I've corrected my charts.

On the other point I suppose in inheritance terms it just goes to show that the depth of Deryni ancestry isn't the key factor in determining the extent of one's Deryni capability. And of course then there is ability to master those capabilities - Wencit seems convinced that his nephew Aldred isn't especially adept in comparison to the younger Charissa and Morgan (Morgan would probably be flattered given how scathing he can be about his own capabilities).
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 11, 2014, 04:14:26 am
Quote
Hmm. You're right about Derry. That's a shame (the lack of connection, not your correcting me, for which I thank you humbly). I've corrected my charts.
Drakensis,  there is no need to be humble. I have seen some one else place Sean Derry in Camber's descendent charts before(I can not find that reference now that I am looking for it). This made me wonder if there is another comment in the codex somewhere that I have not seen.  Or if that was just an error. I like to think that Sean has some Deryni blood even if way back.

If you have not seen these two sites, you might like to have a look.
 http://home.comcast.net/~oakgrove47/library/cam_desc.htm     This is a nice list of Camber's Descendents.
 http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/home.html                     This is an amazing set of pedigree charts.

Don't let these two sites stop you from making your own charts.  There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in the self discovery of who is who in this World of Gwynedd.

The one thing I searched for high and low is not to be found at either of these two sites, nor in the Codex. It was that unanswered question that caused me to write some fan fiction. Alaric's descending from Rhys. I know the connection must exist. It just has too! Someday KK will enlighten us.  Or so I hope.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 11, 2014, 02:00:51 pm
Unless I'm very much mistaken, Alaric Morgan is indeed descended from Rhys Thuryn and the answer I found is in the Codex.

And I promise I'm not discouraged. I was part-way through drawing up my fourth version of a combined genealogy when I broke off the work on my current fic and I expect I'll get back to it once I'm done.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 11, 2014, 02:34:40 pm
Quote
Unless I'm very much mistaken, Alaric Morgan is indeed descended from Rhys Thuryn and the answer I found is in the Codex.
****Laurna sneaks off with her codex and a good reading light in search for a clue!****
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: r2005 on November 11, 2014, 11:25:55 pm
The one thing I searched for high and low is not to be found at either of these two sites, nor in the Codex. It was that unanswered question that caused me to write some fan fiction. Alaric's descending from Rhys. I know the connection must exist. It just has too! Someday KK will enlighten us.  Or so I hope.

Even if KK hasn't told us the exact path, we know the connection does exist. She said that when she was stuck writing The Knighting of Derry, she figured out the path. That tidbit of information is in an introduction to the The Knighting of Derry. So, it's more a matter of KK telling us one day, or someone who has a copy of the Codex will find enough clues to figure it out. :)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 12, 2014, 02:57:19 am
Quote
Unless I'm very much mistaken, Alaric Morgan is indeed descended from Rhys Thuryn and the answer I found is in the Codex.
****Laurna sneaks off with her codex and a good reading light in search for a clue!****
I can tell you if you want. Or drop hints like a riddle-obsessed oracle until you find it if you'd prefer. (I've double-checked and I'm sure I'm not mistaken).
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on November 12, 2014, 06:25:43 am
Quote
Unless I'm very much mistaken, Alaric Morgan is indeed descended from Rhys Thuryn and the answer I found is in the Codex.
****Laurna sneaks off with her codex and a good reading light in search for a clue!****
I can tell you if you want. Or drop hints like a riddle-obsessed oracle until you find it if you'd prefer. (I've double-checked and I'm sure I'm not mistaken).

I'm quite curious myself, especially since we asked KK in chat about that connection sometime earlier in the year, and whatever she had worked out in her head all those years ago she has evidently forgotten, since all she could recall was how Duncan connects to the Camber bloodline, not how Morgan is descended from him. So unless she remembers again, the solution to that mystery is unlikely to come from her. So if you've rediscovered the link, please share!
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 12, 2014, 06:39:44 am
It is 4:00 am in the morning I think I found it an hour ago. Trouble is I spent some time confirming the generations and other facts. When I went back to confirm the one marriage that makes it work I could not refind where that one fact was stated.  The page number I had written down was not correct. Yikes
My eyes are crossing. I will check again in the morning. Don't tell me just yet.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 12, 2014, 01:46:37 pm
I found it!  I have Proof!
I am still writing out the full generational line and will post it when it is done.
Meanwhile if you want a hint, it is generation 4 and 5. (Camber generation one and Alaric generation ten)

If you need a hint, it is Roger McLain's Mother. The succession is clearly in print but can not be found by looking up the McLain line.

Need a second hint? Rhysel Jocelyn Thuryn, (Daughter of Rhys and Evaine) has a daughter named Tiphane, Lady Ainslie, who marries the Duke of Cassan, Generation four.  Tiphane has two daughters and a son. The Older daughter marries Cluim Haldane, and the younger daughter marries a McLain, Roger's father.

Can you name Roger McLain's parents? Roger McLain is Generation six.
I have the page number with the proof if you can not find it.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Jerusha on November 12, 2014, 02:23:19 pm
Arrgh! I don't have the time right now to do the research, so if someone can share where the information can be found, I will be forever in your debt.  Or at least very grateful.   :D

Feel free to share by PM if you don't want to spoil the search for others.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 12, 2014, 03:11:38 pm
Jerusha I sent you a PM with my Generation chart that I have nearly finished.
I hope the long unanswered question is finally answered.  ;D   Camber - Alaric through descendents of Rhysel.
But don't worry. This only confirms my fan fiction desire to have two generational lines that lead from Camber to Alaric. The second through descendents of Tieg. ;D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Aerlys on November 12, 2014, 05:48:43 pm
Ack! I barely have time to open my mail, let alone sort out Deryni genealogy. I bow to your industry!

Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 12, 2014, 10:09:57 pm
Since I woke absurdly early today I finished some supplementary work for the fic and thought I may as well post it here. Pertinent in that pretty much all of this is information from the Codex, simply presented a little differently:

<snip>
Drakensis,

What program(s) did you use to generate these charts? They are very nice! Thanks so much for sharing with us!

Lenni
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 12, 2014, 10:40:43 pm
Laurna,

I think that I know Roger's mother, but since the OS where I run my main genealogy program is down, I can't be sure!

Jerusha I sent you a PM with my Generation chart that I have nearly finished.
I hope the long unanswered question is finally answered.  ;D   Camber - Alaric through descendents of Rhysel.
But don't worry. This only confirms my fan fiction desire to have two generational lines that lead from Camber to Alaric. The second through descendents of Tieg. ;D

I'm begging you! Will you kindly share your Generational chart (or at least the page number!) with the rest of us? Pretty please?!

Lenni
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 13, 2014, 12:20:41 am
What a day!
I was so happy I had answered this riddle that I went outside to play with my dogs. I got them all jazzed up. Apparently, too jazzed. We had been playing for about 30 minutes when I decided to go brush a horse. I guess the dogs didn't want me to go. They were dashing in and out of my feet, and in one step Jessa Mia was under my foot. Terrified I might hurt her if I stepped down, I  tripped side ways. Clunk!  I was on the ground with many dogy tongues licking my face. I went to work but my right foot swelled up. So after an x-ray, I have a broken foot.

But is is OK.  I am at home in a cast, but I have a lot more time to fix that genealogy chart.

The only obstacle is the peculiar wording in the sentence I found.

Here is the entry:
"Tambert I Fitz - Arthur Quinnell, 1st Duke of Cassan. He was born in the IXth day of August in the Year of our Lord 916, being the eldest son and Heir of Fane Earl Fitz-arthur and Anne Quinnell Princess of Cassan, and grandson of Tammaron Earl Fitz-Arthur and Ambert last Sovereign Prince of Cassan. He intermarried with Adelicia Lady Of Horthness daughter of Rhun Earl of Sheele on the XXIst day of May in the year 929 and by her he had children: The hereditary Duke Tammaron II later Duke of Cassan; the Lord Flynn later Earl Derry; the Lady Eldona; the Lady Annetta.
Duke Tambert's eldest son, Tammaron Duke of Cassan, married Tiphane Lady Ainslie on the XVIIth day of August in the year 950, and by her he had children: The Lady Swynbeth, who intermarried with Cluim King of Gwynedd; the Hereditary Duke Fane, later Duke of Cassan who intermarried with Ardana Lady de Courcy; The Lady Nerina, a twin to her brother, who intermarried with Sir Andrew McLain, father of Sir Roger McLain."

My only concern here is that Andrew McLain had not been married previously. That Roger is indeed Nerina's son and not a son from a different marriage. KK and Robert would not do that to us, Would they?  There is no evidence of Andrew McLain being married before he married Nerina, so I am using this as fact.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 13, 2014, 01:03:05 am
Laurna,

What a day!
I was so happy I had answered this riddle that I went outside to play with my dogs. I got them all jazzed up. Apparently, too jazzed. We had been playing for about 30 minutes when I decided to go brush a horse. I guess the dogs didn't want me to go. They were dashing in and out of my feet, and in one step Jessa Mia was under my foot. Terrified I might hurt her if I stepped down, I  tripped side ways. Clunk!  I was on the ground with many dogy tongues licking my face. I went to work but my right foot swelled up. So after an x-ray, I have a broken foot.

Yikes!! May your foot heal soon and your doggies comfort you! ;-)

Here is the entry:
"Tambert I Fitz - Arthur Quinnell, 1st Duke of Cassan. He was born in the IXth day of August in the Year of our Lord 916, being the eldest son and Heir of Fane Earl Fitz-arthur and Anne Quinnell Princess of Cassan, and grandson of Tammaron Earl Fitz-Arthur and Ambert last Sovereign Prince of Cassan. He intermarried with Adelicia Lady Of Horthness daughter of Rhun Earl of Sheele on the XXIst day of May in the year 929 and by her he had children: The hereditary Duke Tammaron II later Duke of Cassan; the Lord Flynn later Earl Derry; the Lady Eldona; the Lady Annetta.
Duke Tambert's eldest son, Tammaron Duke of Cassan, married Tiphane Lady Ainslie on the XVIIth day of August in the year 950, and by her he had children: The Lady Swynbeth, who intermarried with Cluim King of Gwynedd; the Hereditary Duke Fane, later Duke of Cassan who intermarried with Ardana Lady de Courcy; The Lady Nerina, a twin to her brother, who intermarried with Sir Andrew McLain, father of Sir Roger McLain."

My only concern here is that Andrew McLain had not been married previously. That Roger is indeed Nerina's son and not a son from a different marriage. KK and Robert would not do that to us, Would they?  There is no evidence of Andrew McLain being married before he married Nerina, so I am using this as fact.
Hey, it works for me! Thanks for sharing. :-)

Lenni
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 13, 2014, 01:11:47 am
This is my summery of the geneology chart.

Camber ---Alaric

Generation One ( Birth 846)

+Camber Kyriell MacRorie,  7th Earl of Culdi,  Deryni Mage
Called Defensor Hominum and Kingmaker, Saint
      Born: August 3, 846  Died in name June 905, Died January 6, 918
      Son of Ballard II, and Ardis Lady Drummond.
      Married Jocelyn Lady de La Marche on May 18,871
      6 children: Count Cathan, Lady Jerusha(Died at age twelve of fever),Lord Ballard(died at age 11 of fever), Lord Joram(Michaeline priest), Lady    Ardissa( stillborn), Lady Evaine.
~Jocelyn Lady de La Marche, Countess of Culdi, Lady, Trained Deryni
      Born July 21 848, Died December 12 896
      Daughter of Evan Barib de la Marche and Brio Lady Gillaspie
      Married: Camber Kyriell MacRorie on May 18, 871

Generation Two (Birth 882)

++Evaine Elspeth Jessamyn MacRorie Thuryn, Lady, Trained Deryni
      Born: October 6, 882, Died: August 1, 918
      Daughter of Camber and Jocelyn
      Married: Rhys Lord Thuryn on January 6, 904
      4 Children: Lord Aidan Camber( murdered at age 10 by the regents),Lady Rhysel Jocelyn(Married Sir Tovin Ainslie), Lord Tieg Joram(married Karis  D’Oriel), Lady Jerusha Evaine Jodotha(married Sir Cathan Drummond)
      Founding Member of the Camberian Council, Chatelaine of Tor Caerrorie
      Died while attempting to restore her father from a suspension spell.
~Rhys Malachy Thuryn, Lord, Deryni Healer
      Born: February 17, 877 orphaned in 878 and adopted by Camber
      Son of Malachy Lord Thuryn and Rosanaugh Lady FitzWilliams
      Married: Evaine Lady MacRorie on January 6, 904
      Studied Saint Liam’s Abbey, Owned estate called Sheele, North of Valoret.
      Founding Member of the Camberian Council,
      Died February 2, 917 while helping Camber escape from the Regents’ trap at All Saints Cathedral.

Generation Three (Birth 910)

++Rhysel Jocelyn Thuryn, Lady, Trained Deryni
      Born November 18, 910, Died October 23, 974
      Daughter of Rhys Lord Thuryn and Evaine Lady MacRorie
      Orphaned on August 1, 918, Raised by Fiona MacLean
      Married: Sir Robert Ainslie on August 21, 928
      3 Children Lady Bethany(married Alphard Baron Stanzar), Sir Javyl(later Lord of Argoed), Lady Tiphane (married Tammaron Duke of Cassan),
~Robert Ainslie, called Robin, Hereditary Lord Argoed, Lord Regent of Gwynedd, Sir
      Born April 1 901, Died February 3, 949
      Son of Ainslie Lord Argoed( lives 100years and 5days)  and Edidh Lady Ballingmore
      Married Rhysel lady Thuryn on August 21, 928

Generation Four (Birth ?)

++Tiphane, Lady Ainslie
     (No individual entry placed in the Codex)
     Born:in or after 930,  Died: unknown
     Daughter of Robert Ainslie and Rhysel Jocelyn Thuryn 
     Marries Tammaron Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan on August 17, 950
     Children: Lady Swynbeth, Twins Lord Fane, LadyNerina
~Tammaron II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan 948-994
     (No individual entry placed in the Codex)
     Born: April 29, 934 *Codex page 301 , Died: 994
     Son of Tambert I, Duke of Cassan and Adelicia, Lady of Horthness(married May 21,929. *Codex page 300.) Tambert I becomes Duke of Cassan “under terms of an irrevocable agreement between Cassan and Gwynedd on September 22, 916” (*Codex page 60)
     Marries Lady Tiphane on August 17, 950 (*Codex page 302)
     Children: Lady Swynbeth, Lord Fane(twin), Lady Nerina(twin)

Generation Five (Birth 952 )


++ Fane, Lord, Duke of Cassan (994-1016)
        Born December 15, 952 Twin to Lady Nerina (*Codex page 302)
        Son of Tammaron Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan and Lady Tiphane
        Married: Ardana Lady de Courcy (Codex page 239)
        Children: Tambert II later Duke of Cassan(1016-1025)
~Ardana, Lady de Courcy

+++Nerina, Lady
       Born December 15, 952 Twin to Fane (*Codex page 302)
       Daughter of Tammaron Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan and Lady Tiphane
       Married Andrew McLain Laird of House McLain (983-1003) (Codex Page 239 heading  Tambert I, “the lady Nerina, a twin to her brother, who intermarried with Sir Andrew McLain, father of Sir Roger McLain”)
     Children: Roger McLain
~Andrew McLain,Laird of House McLain (983-1003)
      Born    ,Died 1003
      Son of Duncan  Laird of Leanshire (962-983)
      Married Nerina Lady Fitz-Arthur Quinnell around 968 
     Children: Lord Roger McLain (Marries Glorian Lady MacInnis Heiress of Kierney on March 11, 990 (*Codex page 306)

Generation Six (Birth ? )

++Tambert II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell later Duke of Casan 1016-1025
    Born   Died
    Son of Fan Duke of Cassan and Ardana Lday de Courcey
    Married unknown
    Children: Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell Heiress of Cassan
~Unknown

+++ Roger, Sir, Lord, Laird of House McLain (1003-1025)
      Born: unknown (around 969)   Died 1025
      Son of Andrew McLain and Nerina Fitz-Arthur Quinnell
      Marries Glorian Lady MacInnis, Heiress of Kierney on March 11, 990
      Children: Lord Tairchell (born December 27, 990) Laird of House McLain (1025-1060)Marries Rhetice MacEwan, Lord Arnall (Born April 18,992) Laird of House McLain (1060-1076)marries Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell Heiress of Cassan.  (Codex Timeline, page 307, under years 990 and 992)
~Glorian Lady MacInnis, Heiress of Kierney
      Born: 961         Died November 11, 1033 age 73
      Daughter of Richard MacInnis, Earl of Kierney(948-1025) and Unknown
      Glorian MacInnis Countess of Kierney dies November 11, 1033, aged LXXIII years, and is succeeded by her son, Lord Arnall McLain.(Codex page 310)

Generation Seven (Birth 992 )

+++ Arnall McLain, Sir, Lord, Lard of House McLain (1060-1076)
      Born April 18, 992  Died 1076
      Second Son of Roger McLain and Glorian Lady MacInnis
      Marries Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell  Heiress to Duchy of Cassan on February 20, 1022 (Codex page 309)
      Children: Andrew Duke of Cassan from Birth (1034-1099), Older daughter, Madonna McLain
++Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell Heiress to Duchy of Cassan
      Born  Died
      Daughter of Tambert II Duke of Cassan(1016-1025) and Unknown
      Married her cousin Arnall McLain

Generation Eight (Birth   )

++ Madonna  Lady McLain
        Born    Died
        Daughter of Arnall Earl of Keirney and Adelicia Fitz Arthur Quinnell Heiress of Cassan
        Married Kai Anthony Morgan, SIr  Laird of Morgahall
        Children Kenneth Kai Morgan
~ Kai  Anthony Morgan,  Laird of Morganhall, Sir
   

Gereration Nine  (Birth  1046 )

++ Kenneth Kai Morgan, Hereditary Knight , Laird of Morganhall, Sir
       Born October 7, 1046  Died  September 24, 1100
       Son of Kai Anthony Morgan, SIr and Madonna Lady McLain
       Marries Amya Lady ALmaris
       Children:Master Kai Kennis (Died age 3), Master Kailan Lain(stillborn), Mistress Zoe Bronwyn, Mistress Geill, Mistress Alazais.
       Married Alyce lady de Cynfyn Heiress de Corwyn on June18, 1090
       2 Children: Sir Alaric Anthony, Lady Bronwyn Rhetice (Betrothed to Kevin Mclain)
~Alyce Javana Lady Cynfyn, Heiress de Corwyn and Lendour
      Born February 22, 1070  Died December 29, 1095
      Daughter of Keryell Earl of Lendour and Stevana Heiress de Corwyn
      Elder of twin sister Vera howard
      Married Sir Kenneth Kai Morgan on June 16, 1090
      Children: Sir Alaric Anthony, Lady Bronwyn Rhetice (Betrothed to Kevin Mclain)

Genertion Ten   (Birth  1091 )

++Alaric Anthony Morgan, VIIth Duke of Corwyn, Earl of Lendour, King’s Champion Lord Protector of the South, Hereditary Knight and Laird of Morganhall, Sir
      Born September 29, 1091
      Son of Sir Kenneth Kai Morgan and Alyce Lady de Corwyn
      Married Richenda
~Richenda Rayma Anisa, Lady Rheljan, Dowager Countess and regent of Marley, Duches of Corwyn.
      Daughter of Richard FitzEwan Baron of Rheljan and Michendra Princess of Andelon
      Married Bran Coris, Earl of Marly on June 12, 1116
      Children: Brandon later Earl of Marley,  Lady Rhiannon Ysabeau ( died at age 1)
      Widowed on July 2, 1121
      Married Alaric Anthony Morgan on May 1st, 1122
      Children: Countess Briony Bronwyn, Hereditary Duke Kelric Alain Earl of Lendour born May 3, 1125, Countess Sophonisba Alyca Richenda (also named Grania Marie Araxelle) Born April 12, 1129

Generation Eleven   (Birth   )
 
++  Countess Briony Bronwyn
       Born January 31, 1123

++  Kelric Alain Earl of Lendour Hereditary Duke of Corwyn
       Born May 3, 1125

++  Countess Grania Marie Araxelle
       Born April 12, 1129
   
Thank you Drakensis for inspiring me to search the Codex again.
If you find I am in error any where please let me know, Thank you.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 13, 2014, 02:28:37 am
Since I woke absurdly early today I finished some supplementary work for the fic and thought I may as well post it here. Pertinent in that pretty much all of this is information from the Codex, simply presented a little differently:

<snip>
Drakensis,

What program(s) did you use to generate these charts? They are very nice! Thanks so much for sharing with us!

Lenni

Honestly, it's nothing but Windows Paint.

What a day!
I was so happy I had answered this riddle that I went outside to play with my dogs. I got them all jazzed up. Apparently, too jazzed. We had been playing for about 30 minutes when I decided to go brush a horse. I guess the dogs didn't want me to go. They were dashing in and out of my feet, and in one step Jessa Mia was under my foot. Terrified I might hurt her if I stepped down, I  tripped side ways. Clunk!  I was on the ground with many dogy tongues licking my face. I went to work but my right foot swelled up. So after an x-ray, I have a broken foot.
I'm sorry to hear of your injury.

The only obstacle is the peculiar wording in the sentence I found.

Here is the entry:
"Tambert I Fitz - Arthur Quinnell, 1st Duke of Cassan. He was born in the IXth day of August in the Year of our Lord 916, being the eldest son and Heir of Fane Earl Fitz-arthur and Anne Quinnell Princess of Cassan, and grandson of Tammaron Earl Fitz-Arthur and Ambert last Sovereign Prince of Cassan. He intermarried with Adelicia Lady Of Horthness daughter of Rhun Earl of Sheele on the XXIst day of May in the year 929 and by her he had children: The hereditary Duke Tammaron II later Duke of Cassan; the Lord Flynn later Earl Derry; the Lady Eldona; the Lady Annetta.
Duke Tambert's eldest son, Tammaron Duke of Cassan, married Tiphane Lady Ainslie on the XVIIth day of August in the year 950, and by her he had children: The Lady Swynbeth, who intermarried with Cluim King of Gwynedd; the Hereditary Duke Fane, later Duke of Cassan who intermarried with Ardana Lady de Courcy; The Lady Nerina, a twin to her brother, who intermarried with Sir Andrew McLain, father of Sir Roger McLain."

My only concern here is that Andrew McLain had not been married previously. That Roger is indeed Nerina's son and not a son from a different marriage. KK and Robert would not do that to us, Would they?  There is no evidence of Andrew McLain being married before he married Nerina, so I am using this as fact.
Oh my. That's not the connection I'd found, but it confirms the one point of uncertainty I had. It all looks correct to me, but I had a different generation five and generation six, tracking the succession through Nerina's brother Fane - his son Tambert II was the father of Adelicia, who married Arnall McLain. My only doubt was some of Tammaron's children might be from another marriage.

Roger McLain may have had two marriages since Tairchell McLain inherits Leanshire and his younger brother Arnall inherits Kierney in 1033 - presumably on his mother's death - while Tairchell McLain would still be alive until 1060. Could I ask your source for Tairchell and Arnall's dates of birth? My own theory was that Arnall was the elder and Tairchell was specifically deeded Leanshire rather than it defaulting to the eldest son (only for it to revert to Arnall when Tairchell had no living heirs). Or maybe there's some specific requirement to separate the titles - otherwise the McLains of Leanshire should probably have inherited Kierney since they're descended of the last MacLean Earl whereas the title actually went to the daughter of the last Earl's brother and thus to the MacInnis family.

(also, you list Roger as born on or after 990 - I think you mean 'before')

It's an excellent chart though!


Edit: found the dates of birth on the timeline, which also states Tairchell was Earl before Arnall. That makes more sense than the list of Earls which doesn't mention Tairchell and lists Arnall directly after their mother.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 13, 2014, 10:34:20 am
Quote
(also, you list Roger as born on or after 990 - I think you mean 'before')
Oops! Roger was married in 990. He was likely born between 968 and 972.
Thanks.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 14, 2014, 07:00:31 pm
Camber --- Alaric and Duncan  from Generation Four

~Tammaron II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell     x    ++Tiphane, Lady Ainslie
           Born: April 29, 934                              Born:in or after 930
                        /                                                        /
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                       /                             /                                           /
++Lady Swynbeth               ++ Lord Fane                           ++Lady Nerina
                                      Born December 15, 952 (twin)         Born December 15, 952(twin)
 x ~Cluim Haldane          x  ~Ardana, Lady de Courcy              x~Andrew McLain                                                                         
                      /                              /                                          /
      Haldane Heirs                       /                                          /
                                                     /                                          /
                                    -----------------------------            -----------------------
                                                     /                                          /
                ++Tambert II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell                      ++ Roger Lord McLain
              x   ~Married unknown                                                  x
                                               /                                          ~Glorian Lady MacInnis
                                               /                                             later Heiress and Countess of Kierney
                                               /                                                             /
                                      ----------------                             --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      /                                                /                                             /                                              /
                 ++Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell                ++ Lord Tairchell McLain         ++ Lord Arnall McLain             ++Ayn, Lady McLain
                     Heiress of Cassan                                born December 27, 990             Born April 18,992                             x
                                /                                             (*see Lissa McLain below)                   /                                  ~Lord Loren Kincaid     
                                /                                 x                                                                   /                                    Earl of Kilarden(997-1027)
                     ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                                /
                        /                                                      /                                                           /                                ---------------------------
++,++Andrew McLain, Duke of Cassan   ++,++older daughter Unknown           ++,++Madonna Lucinda McLain                    /
             Born: December 1, 1034                                                                                           x                             ++Rhiryd, Earl of Kilarden
          x ~Jesma Lady McLain                                                                                ~ Kai  Anthony Morgan                        (1027-8/8/1045)
                       /                                         * ++Lissa McLain                                                 /                                                x
                       /                                       x  ~Fergus MacFaolan King of Howicce                     /                                              m1041
              -----------------                            -----------------                                        -----------------------                    Annalind Quinnell,
                      /                                                   /                                                                /                                   Princess of Meara
 ++,++ Jared McLain Duke of Cassan       ++Princess Aude Howicce                 ++,++  Kenneth Kia Morgan                   1/23/1008-8/8/1045
               and Earl of Keirney                                  x                                                             x                                                 /
           Born September 15, 1064                           (**)                                                                                                 ------------------
          x  ~Elaine Lady MacInnis               ++Judhael III Quinnell Kincaid                    ~ Alyce de Corwyn                 ++Judhael III Quinnell Kincaid     
               /    x  ~ Vera Howard de Corwyn            /                                                       (Twin to Vera)                                 (**)
              /            /    (twin to Alyce)                    /                                                                /
         ------        ---------------                    ----------------                                       ------------------------------
             /             /                                            /                                                    /                               /
++,++Kevin   ++,++ Duncan McLain      ++,++Caitrin Quinnell              ++,++Alaric Morgan       ++, ++Brownwyn
      McLain
       

 I give here my interpretation of the Codex .       

This makes Alaric's statement from the Bishop's Heir is mostly correct.
"Neither Duncan's father or his grandfather had any brothers, but his grandfather had two sisters. The younger, my paternal grandmother, produced one son, my father. The elder sister also produced one son, however: and he married the Princess Annalind of Meara."   
I have not checked out Caitrin Quinnell's line yet.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 15, 2014, 03:53:38 am
Code: [Select]
Jolyon II Quinnell = Urracca Faucon                          Tairchell McLain = ??
                   |                                                          |
              Annalind Quinnell = Rhiryd Kincaid     Fergus MacFaolan = Lissa McLain
                                |                                     |
                                Judhael III Quinnell = Aude of Howicce
                                                     |
                              Sicard McArdry = Caitrin Quinnell = Derek Delaney


So it seems Tairchell McLain did have a child, providing the link to the Quinnells. Possibly Lissa renounced her inheritance rights to Kierney to marry into the MacFaolans (Haldane children marrying outside Gwynedd are generally required to do this, so it's plausible other families may do the same), or maybe it's the usual Eleven Kingdoms aversion to succession through a female line that left Kierney being inherited by Tairchell's brother Arnall. I'd expect King Malcolm would have been quite firm that a powerful Earldom wasn't going to pass into the control of Howicce.

Interesting points:
1. Faolan MacFaolan's paternal grandmother was King Cluim Haldane's eldest daughter. Three of Cluim's children married into Howiccean families. Another was Jolyon II Quinnell's first wife.
2. This gives Caitrin's sons a claim on Kierney but not on Cassan - Tairchell's nephew Andrew was the first McLain Duke of Cassan. They can claim Cassan should have reverted to the Mearan Quinnells in the 920s when Ambert Quinnell had no male heirs, although since they've since had two occasions with no male heir themselves that's as shaky as the Festil's decrying the Haldanes for Cinhil I being absolved of priestly vows.
3. Alaric Morgan is a bit rusty on his paternal family tree.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: revanne on November 15, 2014, 07:18:21 am
"Alaric Morgan is a bit rusty on his paternal family tree."

Given how reluctant he is to engage with any sort of calculation - see DC- he would probably look at the complexity of this and think - "No I have a serious rival to my Duchy? No. Do I need to know the details of this? No!"

Maybe, too, he is more inclined towards his mother's side because he lost her so young and also because as far as he knows that's where his Deryni inheritance comes from.

I stand in awe of your powers of concentration  :)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: revanne on November 15, 2014, 07:19:28 am
Sorry - should read "Do I have...!

can't even type now!
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on November 15, 2014, 11:00:55 am
Given that Kenneth Morgan died when Alaric was quite young (around 8-10, perhaps? I suppose we'll find out in a few weeks when the next book comes out), and Kenneth's sisters (the others most likely to know a complete or mostly complete genealogy) are older than Kenneth and have less regular contact with young Alaric, it's quite likely that all the older Morgans would have died off by the time Alaric is old enough to take a keen interest in the details of his genealogy, and so his memory of what he's been told is sketchy at best, despite Deryni normally having very keen memories. Add that to the natural tendency for most people to know very little about who their ancestors were beyond their grandparents' or great-grandparents' generation, and to be unaware of the side-branches in the family tree any further back than that, and it's hardly surprising if he is unaware he has a Camberian lineage on his paternal side or gets a few branches tangled in his mental family tree. After all, the Camberian Council seems completely unaware of his and Duncan's Camberian heritage (or maybe just thinks the Deryni bloodline has become too diluted on that side of the family to have any bearing on things), and if anyone would have had reason to keep up with such things, it would be that lot of meddling busybodies.  ;D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 15, 2014, 12:16:04 pm
Quote
So it seems Tairchell McLain did have a child, providing the link to the Quinnells.

This is too much fun!

Codex page 202 "Quinnell....The Principality of Cassan split from Meara in the year 762 during the war of Succession,... a treaty signed by representatives of both branches of the House of Quinnell... which agreement also provided that, in the event of the extinction of one branch of the family, the other would have succession rights to the other territory.  The House of Quinnell of Cassan became extinct of the male line on May 21 921."
Thus  Ambert Quinnell, Princes of Cassan (909-921) passes away,  and instead of Cassan going back to Meara an agreement is made with Gwynedd for Tambert I, Ambert's grandson to become Duke of Cassan. The fight over Cassan is that old.
A hundred years later Tambert II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell has no surviving male heir, but he does have a daughter. You can imagine the fear he and the King of Gwynedd must have that Cassan will be lost to Meara when he dies. But Tambert II has a cousin by his father's twin sister, Roger McLain. Roger just happens to have two eligible sons. What does he do?

Perhaps Tairchell is not of the right temperament to run Cassan. Perhaps Tambert II did have a son who died before maturity and Tairchell being the Earl of Kierney had already married. We do not know the story, but for some reason, Roger's younger son Arnall is chosen to keep the blood line in the family and out of Meara's grasp. Adelicai and Arnall's marriage was not a love match, but a match of necessity.

Revanne and Evie,  I agree with both of you that this is quite a convoluted family tree. But I suspect nobility was often intertwined to keep the wrong members of a family from gaining family lands. Without the documentation of family trees in say the family bible, which can be lost, it would be hard to remember it all. Especially if you were a child when it was told to you. That the Camberian Council lost the info must have meant that the they had a great lose of members at once ( ie 948), and that the surviving members did not consider the diluted line of any interest. They still had the MacAthan line as pure Deryni from Camber.

Nothing like being in a leg cast to have so much time to study this.  Silly me!
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 15, 2014, 05:06:39 pm
You're right, Tairchell does provide a successor.

Of course, to complicate all this it's almost certain that Tambert II, last FitzArthur-Quinnell Duke of Cassan and Jolyon II Quinnell died within six weeks or so of each other, neither leaving a male heir of their body. This is happening in 1025 after all and quite a lot of dynastic plans blew up in people's faces that year. (The Torenthi plan was to have the King of Torenth's next oldest brother as Prince of Meara by right of marriage to Roisian Quinnell while Annalind got consolation via marrying the next oldest brother of the Festillic Pretender (who would have been Duke of Eastmarch if the Festils had won).)

We're talking about a year in which essentially every all but four nobles holding titles of Earl or higher in Gwynedd died. (the exceptions were the Duke of Corwyn (died the next year), Duke of Rhemuth (who inherited Gwynedd), Duke of Carthmoor (who was also Earl of Culdi), Earl of Carthane). And in several cases not only the titleholder but a substantial swathe of the succession died out.


There's also a fascinating historical what-if that arose that year. King Malcolm's younger brother Jaron married Salentina, the next in line to the Festillic claim. 'Fortunately' they had only one daughter who has no known children. If they'd had a son that would have theoretically neutralised the subsequent Festillic Pretenders (who were definitely of a junior line) but have created a potentially serious rival within Gwynedd.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 15, 2014, 06:27:31 pm
All this info leads to the "Road of Killingford".  The new novel that KK announced she has begun writing. I am intrigued. I wonder how far back she will start? Do you start with Arnall and Adalicia's wedding in 1022 which pre - ensures that Cassan will stay in Gwynedd when Tambert II dies? Does this event send Meara into War mode to get Cassan back? Is this the catalyst that starts a war which then encourages Torenth to invade while Gwynedd is weakened. In the end almost no on survives!
I will definitely be reading that account when it is done.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 16, 2014, 12:29:13 am
The McLain family tree has a couple of problems with it. Rebecca Davis discussed them with Rob Reginald (of Codex Derynianus I and II fame). Here is a link to Rebecca's Web site where she discusses the problem and possible solutions (based upon comments from Rob) - http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/mclains.html.

Codex II seems confused about Tairchell McLain and Arnal McClain. In some places, Tairchell inherits Kierney from Glorian MacInnis and then passes it on to Arnal McLain, his brother. In other places, Arnal McLain inherits from Glorian MacInnis.

I think that:
Tairchell should be added back in to all of the lists as Earl of Kierney and Arnall, Lissa, and Madonna should be listed as his children.
Or
Tairchell should be added back in to all of the lists as Earl of Kierney and Arnall should be listed as his brother. Andrew, Lissa, and Madonna would be Arnall's children.
I think if Ayn could hold off marrying Loren Kincaid (say 5 to 10 years) and having Rhiryd Kincaid until she was a little older, things (dates) would be OK.

Of course, there are still problems figuring out the MacFaolan's!


Based upon information from Rebecca, Rob, and Codex I and II, here is the family tree as I see it (although Ayn and the Kincaids have dates as listed in Codex II's Ordo Temporum):
Roger McLain
sp. Glorian MacInnis (Heiress of Kierney), *b. 963, *m. 11 Feb 990, *d. 11 Nov 1033
  + #@Ayn McLain, ?b. 27 Dec 990?
    sp. Loren Kincaid, *b. 977, *d. 18 Jun 1027
        + Rhiryd Kincaid, *b. 999, *d. 8 Aug 1045
          sp. Annalind Quinnell, *b. 23 Jan 1008, *m. 15 Sep 1041, *d. 8 Aug 1045
              + Judhael Quinnel-Kincaid [1], *b. 19 Jun 1042
                sp. Aude MacFaolan [2], *m. 22 May 1060
                    + Caitrin Quinnell [3], b. 28 Dec 1065
        + Danvan Kincaid, *b. 1001, *d. 18 Jun 1027
          sp. ?
              + Robert Kincaid, *b. 1025, *d. 8 Aug 1045
                sp. ?
                    + Robard Kincaid, *b. 1045
  + Tairchell McLain, *b. 27 Dec 990, *d. 14 Sep 1060
    sp. Rhetice MacEwan, *m. 17 Jun 1014
        + Arnal McLain, b. 18 Apr 1015, *d. 9 Jan 1076
          sp. Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell (Heiress of Cassan), m. 20 Feb 1034
              + Andrew McLain (Duke of Cassan), *b. 1 Dec 1034
                sp. Jesma McLain, *m. 18 Jul 1059
                    + Jared McClain (Duke of Cassan), b. *15 Sep 1064
                      sp. Vera (de Corwyn) Howard
                          + Duncain McLain
        + %Lissa McLain (!2nd wife)
          sp. %Fergus MacFaolan
              + Aude MacFaolan [2], *%m. 22 May 1060
                sp. Judhael Quinnel-Kincaid [1], *b. 19 Jun 1042
                    + Catrin Quinnell [3], *b. 28 Dec 1065
        + Madonna McLain,
          sp. Kai Morgan
              + Kenneth Kai Morgan, *b. 7 Oct 1046
                sp. Alyce de Corwyn (Heiress of Corwyn)
                    + Alaric Morgan


The dates following an asterix (*) are from Codex II's Ordo Temporum section. It really is quite handy and sometimes has things that are not found in the main section!
The dates/relationships following a pound sign/hash (#) are from Rob Reginald.
The dates/relationships following an at sign (@) are from Rebecca Davis.
The dates following a percent sign (%) are from the Codex 2 entry of Judhael (III) Quinnell-Kincaid, Caitrin's father.
The comments following a bang/exclamation point (!) are from comments by Rob Reginald.

######################################
# Comments from Rob Reginald
Rebecca Davis (according to emails from Rob Reginald):
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/mclains.html
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/usenet.html
Well, Rob further explained in the same article:

"Duke Alaric did make one misstatement, confusing one of the triple descendants (sic) of Ithel from the House of McLain, which is understandable. Loren Kincaid's wife was Ayn Lady McLain, eldest child of Sir Roger McLain." (alt.books.deryni, February 7, 1999)
######################################
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Rebecca Davis makes the following comments about Ayn McLain (Loren Kincaid's wife and Caitrin Quinnell's ancestor):
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/mclains.html
Unfortunately, the dates still don't work for Ayn McLain; she can not be Roger McLain's eldest child:
1)      Roger McLain and Glorian MacInnis were married on February 11, 990. Their eldest child, Tairchell, was born December 27, 990.
2)      Even if she were Tairchell's twin, Ayn would be, at most, barely 9 years old, when Rhiryd Kincaid was born in 999.
3)      Ayn can't be the daughter of Roger by a previous marriage; the claim for the Earldom of Kierney is through Glorian MacInnis, not Roger McLain.

I think that this would work out if:
1. Ayn were Tairchell's older twin.
2. Ayn held off marrying Loren Kincaid until she was a little older (say 1004 at the earliest)
3. Rhiryd Kincaid birth were held off a little, say 1005 at the earliest.
So, this:
  + #@Ayn McLain, ?b. 27 Dec 990?
    sp. Loren Kincaid, *b. 977, *d. 18 Jun 1027
        + Rhiryd Kincaid, *b. 999, *d. 8 Aug 1045
          sp. Annalind Quinnell, *b. 23 Jan 1008, *m. 15 Sep 1041, *d. 8 Aug 1045
Could be this:
  + #@Ayn McLain, b. 27 Dec 990
    sp. Loren Kincaid, *b. 977, @m. 1004, *d. 18 Jun 1027
        + Rhiryd Kincaid, @b. 1005, *d. 8 Aug 1045
          sp. Annalind Quinnell, *b. 23 Jan 1008, *m. 15 Sep 1041, *d. 8 Aug 1045
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% Codex 2:
Judhael (III) Amyas Jolyon Quinnell-Kincaid, Prince and Pretender of Meara, Earl of Kilarden.
"... He intermarried with the Princess Aude daughter of Fergus King of Howicce and Lissa Lady McLain, elder daughter of Tairchell Earl of Kierney, on the XXIInd day of May in the year 1060 at Sirhowy, and by her he had children: ..."
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
! Comments from Rob Reginald
Rebecca Davis (according to emails from Rob Reginald):
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/mclains.html
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/usenet.html

In said article, Rob confirmed Madonna's attribution, backing up everything one generation. However, he added that Tairchell McLain's elder daughter was not the wife of Loren Kincaid, but the second wife of Fergus, King of Howicce.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 16, 2014, 12:32:08 am
All this info leads to the "Road of Killingford".  The new novel that KK announced she has begun writing. I am intrigued. I wonder how far back she will start? Do you start with Arnall and Adalicia's wedding in 1022 which pre - ensures that Cassan will stay in Gwynedd when Tambert II dies? Does this event send Meara into War mode to get Cassan back? Is this the catalyst that starts a war which then encourages Torenth to invade while Gwynedd is weakened. In the end almost no on survives!
I will definitely be reading that account when it is done.

Ooooh! Goody, goody! I hadn't heard about this. I hope that she starts "Road of Killingford" right around 927 or so (just before Joram, et al. die). ;-)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 16, 2014, 02:57:06 am
Quote
Codex II seems confused about Tairchell McLain and Arnall McClain. In some places, Tairchell inherits Kierney from Glorian MacInnis and then passes it on to Arnall McLain, his brother. In other places, Arnall McLain inherits from Glorian MacInnis

I agree that there appears to be an error in the Kierney list of Earls. Tairchell needs to be added as Earl from 1033-1060. Actually sense he is human, Tairchell should have the title of Earl from birth. So the listing should read 990-1060 With Glorian as regent until he comes of age.  And then Arnall becomes Earl in his later years from 1060-1076. When Arnall dies, his son Andrew II Duke of Cassan should gain the title, but he gives the title of Earl of Kierney directly to his son Jared in 1076. In two places Tairchell and Arnall are named as brothers, their father being Roger McLain. (Codex page 175 House McLain) and in the time line (Codex page 306).  And Codex page 140 states Lissa Lady McLain is the elder daughter of Tairchell Earl of Kierney and is married to Fergus King of Howicce. Lissa and Fergus's daughter is Princess Aude.  On Codex page 146 Madonna Lady McLain is stated to be the second daughter of Arnall. Therefore Lissa and Madonna are cousins and not two sisters as Alaric mentions.

I have found no reference in this edition that Tairchell and Arnall were father and son. Unless the first Codex stated it differently  than the second Codex.  You should know that I have used the Deryni genealogy charts on Mindspring.com for years. And this possible error might be the reason I had so much trouble connecting Alaric to Camber. I did not do my own research as I am doing now.

I can find no information on Ayn Mclain. If anyone has seen her name in print within the Codex, I would love the page number and heading. I have missed it so far.

The trouble with the Codex is that so many people that you want to look up, do not have a listing of their own. Information about people are in obscure areas, often under parents, grandparents, or names of places. You have to read everyone and everything related to the person of interest to get the facts you need. And occasionally there are typos or errors that don't correlate making it harder to decipher. Putting together an atlas of this magnitude must have been daunting. I really do hope a new edition will come out with all the new info, but I can see where that will be a lot of work.

Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 16, 2014, 04:07:08 am
In said article, Rob confirmed Madonna's attribution, backing up everything one generation. However, he added that Tairchell McLain's elder daughter was not the wife of Loren Kincaid, but the second wife of Fergus, King of Howicce.
That fits with CodexII.

Ooooh! Goody, goody! I hadn't heard about this. I hope that she starts "Road of Killingford" right around 927 or so (just before Joram, et al. die). ;-)
I think you mean 948 there.

And that would probably require a new trilogy - one book for each of the three major invasions. Not that I'd complain if they all got books, but that seems unlikely.

I agree that there appears to be an error in the Kierney list of Earls. Tairchell needs to be added as Earl from 1033-1060. Actually sense he is human, Tairchell should have the title of Earl from birth. So the listing should read 990-1060 With Glorian as regent until he comes of age.  And then Arnall becomes Earl in his later years from 1060-1076. When Arnall dies, his son Andrew II Duke of Cassan should gain the title, but he gives the title of Earl of Kierney directly to his son Jared in 1076.
Adding Tairchell from 1033-1060 would be correct. He wouldn't be Earl from birth since his maternal grandfather Richard MacInnis didn't die until 1025 (having been Earl since 948 - almost 80 years!). It's possible he could be Earl from then or his mother might be Countess in her own right, depending on how the title's entailed. The 'celtic fringe' of the Eleven Kingdoms seems more permissive of female succession than the Byzantahn-influenced central regions and Kierney is pretty clearly part of the former not the latter, so I'd lean towards Glorian being Countess from 1025-1033.

Andrew passing the title down to Jared follows the example of Claibourne in creating an Earldom for the ducal heir. Alaric did the same, declaring Kelric Earl of Lendour from birth.


I may as well admit at this point that the fanfic I'm working on is covering 1025 - starting from Marek II Festil being girded as King of Gwynedd and hopefully running up to Malcolm Haldane's marriage to Roisian Quinnell. It probably won't be as good as Road to Killingford but it should be ready to be posted sometime around the end of the month.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 16, 2014, 02:38:17 pm
Ooooh! Goody, goody! I hadn't heard about this. I hope that she starts "Road of Killingford" right around 927 or so (just before Joram, et al. die). ;-)
I think you mean 948 there.
Sigh! Yes and no. I really meant 947. I'd like to see a little peace (!?) and learn about families before we get into the whole 948 thing. :-(

And that would probably require a new trilogy - one book for each of the three major invasions. Not that I'd complain if they all got books, but that seems unlikely.
A new trilogy?! YAY! I can always dream.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 17, 2014, 03:29:35 am
Quote
Adding Tairchell from 1033-1060 would be correct. He wouldn't be Earl from birth since his maternal grandfather Richard MacInnis didn't die until 1025
Yes thankyou. that part had sliped my mind. Do to the treaty with Meara Cassan was not supposed to pass the title down through a woman. Although the did find a way around that issue twice.   Kierney would not have had that restriction and I can see where Glorian might have held the earldom in her own right. However by 1025 Tairchaill would have been 35 years old. I doubt if Glorian would keep the title of Earl away from her son of that age.
Quote
at this point that the fanfic I'm working on is covering 1025
I am intrigued. It will be interesting to follow that time period, but exceedingly sad at the end.
The same with 948. Both time periods will be hard to read without a box of tissues.

If Codex 3 ever goes to digital format, imagine how much easier this will be. Just search for a name and find every reference to that name in the book.  I would love that. I would only have to keep separated the generations that have a tendency to repeat family names.  ;D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Elkhound on November 17, 2014, 07:31:57 am

Revanne and Evie,  I agree with both of you that this is quite a convoluted family tree. But I suspect nobility was often intertwined to keep the wrong members of a family from gaining family lands.

They say that two things that Royalty and Rednecks have in common is marrying their cousins.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 17, 2014, 03:22:13 pm
The Furstan family tree is... rather convoluted in that regard. Particularly the Furstan-Arjenol and Furstan-Festil branches.

(the royal families of Europe really weren't any better though).
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Elkhound on November 17, 2014, 09:04:44 pm
The Furstan family tree is... rather convoluted in that regard. Particularly the Furstan-Arjenol and Furstan-Festil branches.

(the royal families of Europe really weren't any better though).

Sometime look at the pedigree of the Spanish Hapsburgs.  Not so much a family tree as a family tumbleweed.  http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uBesB6jGdow/UHLum-_jMiI/AAAAAAAAAtE/VaKIrj5t_UE/s1600/Spanish.gif

And, rather later, World War I was called by some historian whose name escapes me, "The nastiest family quarrel ever."  The King of Great Britain & Ireland and the Emperor of Germany were first cousins, both being grandsons of Queen Victoria.  There is a series of telegrams between the Emperors of Germany and Russia trying to stop the conflagration signed "Cousin Willi" and "Cousin Nikki."  Prince Rupert of Bavaria, one of Kaiser Bill's generals, was the heir to the Stewart claim to the British throne--which meant that not a few Scottish officers resigned their commissions, on the ground that having sworn to fight for 'king and country' they were in danger of having to choose to violate one clause or the other of that oath.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: revanne on November 18, 2014, 03:12:01 am
Not to mention the fact that Queen Victoria could be regarded as responsible if not culpable in another way. She was a carrier for haemophilia which through her was transferred to the Tsarevitch, which is how Rasputin got his hold over the Russian Imperial family.

Also look at photos of Tsar Nicholas II and George V - didn't stop the British government from refusing to give the Russian royal family refuge though. Just another of those little things we don't really mention...
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 18, 2014, 02:06:16 pm
Another chart I drew up for my project: take a look at the prolific descendants of Sighere of Eastmarch!

(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/drakensis/Deryni/MacEwan_zps5fde256b.png) (http://s1004.photobucket.com/user/drakensis/media/Deryni/MacEwan_zps5fde256b.png.html)

A Duchy, three Earldoms, three Baronies - not bad!

Richenda was a FitzEwan while of course we've encountered bad apples among the Howell and Coris families in Kelson's day.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 18, 2014, 02:12:21 pm
Wow!  Drakensis, Great job.
I did not know that about Richenda's father.
Keep up the hunt. This is fun!
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: NavaWazr on November 19, 2014, 10:51:01 pm
It's here! It's here!! It's here!!! I have a copy of Codex II in lovely condition! (happy dance)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on November 19, 2014, 10:59:56 pm
Congratulations!  :)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 20, 2014, 01:23:59 am
NavaWazr  Good Hunting!

I know I've been a bit delinquent about reading The Bastard Prince, but I am into it now. Since I did the genealogy, a lot of the names now have meaning for me. I have a question about one of the families. We get a full background of Etienne de Courcy, King Javan's secretary. And I remembered Fane Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan (994-1016) marries Ardana, Lady de Courcy. I am not able to prove a genealogy between Etienne and Ardana except for family name and about 100 years difference. But can this mean Ardana is Deryni? The de Courcy family were all Deryni in Cambers time.

Here is all the info I can find on family "de Courcy"
 *  Etienne,Baron De Courcy Deryni Lord King Javan’s Confidential secretary
        Born November 22 873, Died May 20 922
        Son of Leopard Baron de Courcy and the Duchess Cygnette Lady Duc du Joux
        Married Kenza Lady Stiofan on June 23, 891
        Children: Lord Guiscard, Lord Huon, Lady Elvienne, Lady Fleurette
        Etienne guarded the Rhemuth Portal. He saved Hearler Oriel’s wife and daughter when Javan was killed. His powers were blocked by   Tieg, and he returned to Rhemuth only to be tortured and killed.
 *  Oldest son Lord Guiscard de Courcy Sir   Deryni Lord
        Born March 4 892, Died May 11, 922 at King Javan’s side
        Married Jael Lady Coanuy June 14,919, Children Sir Alphard and Lady Shellyn
 *  Oldest grandson, Lord Alphard, was given the Barony of Stanzar in lieu of de Courcy after 929.
        Lord Alphard married Bethany Ainslie who was daughter of Rhysel Thuryn
 *  Ardana, Lady de Courcy marries Fane Duke of Cassan
        No proof has been yet found, But can Ardana’s great grandfather be Etienne? and her grandmother be Rhysel Thuryn?
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 21, 2014, 02:08:55 am
I haven't found anything so far regarding Ardana or her heritage. Timing-wise it seems possible she's a daughter or grand-daughter of Bethany Ainslie. As Fane would be the child of Bethany's younger sister the former's more likely depending on when their respective children are born.

If she is Bethany's daughter, marrying Fane would mean she was marrying her own first cousin and if she's Bethany's grand-daughter she's marrying a first-cousin once-removed. That's still marginally closer than Kelson's kinship to Araxie (first cousin once-removed but through a half-sibling) so some dispensation would be needed either way.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 21, 2014, 11:45:39 am
I will agree that first cousin is a bit too close.
In keeping with the de Courcy name and the only members of the family that we know of, it is also possible that Ardana is the granddaughter of Lord Huon, second son of Etienne de Courcy. She would not be an decedent of Camber, but she would be Deryni. At least 1/4 Deryni, possibly more. A definite push for the old human Dukes of Cassan lineage to be more lenient toward Deryni.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 21, 2014, 02:21:14 pm
If Codex 3 ever goes to digital format, imagine how much easier this will be. Just search for a name and find every reference to that name in the book.  I would love that. I would only have to keep separated the generations that have a tendency to repeat family names.  ;D

The likely thing for this would be a dedicated wiki as many fandoms have these day - in this the Codex was ahead of its time in having a record of all this information. Hotlinks to move from one family member to another, etc.

Of course that takes a lot of work from dedicated fans - particularly to build up to the detailed information level provided by the Codex.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 21, 2014, 06:58:33 pm
I know I've been a bit delinquent about reading The Bastard Prince, but I am into it now. Since I did the genealogy, a lot of the names now have meaning for me. I have a question about one of the families. We get a full background of Etienne de Courcy, King Javan's secretary. And I remembered Fane Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan (994-1016) marries Ardana, Lady de Courcy. I am not able to prove a genealogy between Etienne and Ardana except for family name and about 100 years difference. But can this mean Ardana is Deryni? The de Courcy family were all Deryni in Cambers time.

There are LOTS of de Courcys running around that can't be linked together. :-( The "circa" dates are my guesstimates, usually based upon when parents were married or when children were born. I include them as a sorting mechanism - which child is the eldest?!

There are the de Courcys in Javan's time as listed by Laurna.
Léopard de Courcy, d. 9 Oct 901
+Cygnette Buyenne, m. before 873
└── Étienne de Courcy, b. 22 Nov 873, d. 20 May 922
    +Lady Kenza Stiofan, m. 23 Jun 891
    ├── Guiscard de Courcy, b. 4 Mar 892, d. 11 May 922
    │   +Lady Jael Coanuy, m. 14 Jun 919
    │   ├── Alphard de Courcy, b. circa 920
    │   │   +Bethany Ainslie, b. circa 929, m. circa 949
    │   └── Shellyn de Courcy, b. circa 922
    ├── Huon de Courcy, b. circa 894
    ├── Lady Élvienne de Courcy, b. circa 896
    └── Lady Fleurette de Courcy, b. circa 898


And then there is a random de Courcy from a later time:
Ardana de Courcy
+Fane Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, b. 15 Dec 952, m. circa 979, d. 1016
├── Tambert II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, b. circa 980, d. 1025
. . .


And then more random de Courcys from a later time - one of Alarics's great-great grandmothers:
Lady Javana de Courcy
+Sir Stiofan Anthony de Corwyn, b. 7 Apr 985, m. before 2 Jan 1011, d. 11 Oct 1068
├── Airlie de Corwyn, b. 2 Jan 1011, d. before 1051
│   +Grania d'Oriel, b. circa 1022, m. before 1041, d. 1068
│   └── Stevana de Corwyn, b. 18 Oct 1042, d. 17 Aug 1075
│       +Keryell Cynfyn, b. circa 1030, m. 25 May 1069, d. 8 Nov 1086
│       ├── Alyce Leslyn de Corwyn, b. 2 Feb 1070, d. 29 Dec 1095
│       ├── Vera Thamar de Corwyn, b. 2 Feb 1070, d. 31 Jan 1115
│       ├── Ahern Jernian de Corwyn, b. 1 May 1071, d. 7 Nov 1090
│       └── Marie Stephania de Corwyn, b. 1 May 1071, d. 2 Sep 1088
└── Tayman de Corwyn, b. 22 Jul 1012, d. before 11 Oct 1068



These de Courcy's are from the Childe Morgan trilogy. Michon de Courcy is one of the Camberian council and the father-in-law of Sieffany MacAthan, one of the daughters of Jessamy (Lewys ap Norfal's daughter).
Guiscard de Courcy, d. 20 Nov 1056
+Lune MacGregor
└── Michon Étienne Estèphe de Courcy, b. 11 May 1030, d. 30 Oct 1097
    +Sylphe MacAthan, m. 1 May 1055
    ├── Charolys de Courcy, b. circa 1056
    ├── Aurélien de Courcy, b. circa 1058
    │   +Sieffany MacAthan, b. before 1068, m. circa 1078
    │   └── Barnabé de Courcy, b. circa 1079
    ├── Jéhoram de Courcy, b. circa 1060
    ├── Micheline de Courcy, b. circa 1062
    ├── Fénelon de Courcy, b. circa 1064
    └── Chablys de Courcy, b. circa 1066


These de Courcy's are from Alaric's childhood. We'll be seeing the murder/burning of Fr. Jorian de Courcy in the upcoming book.
Alcime de Courcy
+Guinimande Dembrun
└── Jorian de Courcy, b. 26 Dec 1083, d. 11 Nov 1104
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 21, 2014, 07:01:27 pm
If Codex 3 ever goes to digital format, imagine how much easier this will be. Just search for a name and find every reference to that name in the book.  I would love that. I would only have to keep separated the generations that have a tendency to repeat family names.  ;D

The likely thing for this would be a dedicated wiki as many fandoms have these day - in this the Codex was ahead of its time in having a record of all this information. Hotlinks to move from one family member to another, etc.

I believe that elsewhere in the the forum (maybe in this topic - I just got my copy), someone mentioned that Ms. Kurtz is planning (hoping?) to come out with Codex Derynianus in a digital format.I certainly hope that is the case! :-D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on November 21, 2014, 10:06:41 pm

I believe that elsewhere in the the forum (maybe in this topic - I just got my copy), someone mentioned that Ms. Kurtz is planning (hoping?) to come out with Codex Derynianus in a digital format.I certainly hope that is the case! :-D

That was the plan before Rob Reginald's death. KK would still like to do the project, if she can get all of Rob's file from his widow and find someone else with the tech savvy to pull together that project for her. At Dragoncon she hinted that she may seek help from people in this forum to help her keep the details straight.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: lenni on November 21, 2014, 10:09:35 pm
That was the plan before Rob Reginald's death. KK would still like to do the project, if she can get all of Rob's file from his widow and find someone else with the tech savvy to pull together that project for her. At Dragoncon she hinted that she may seek help from people in this forum to help her keep the details straight.
Fingers crossed!! I'm sure that many would be willing to pitch in, myself included! :-D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 22, 2014, 12:47:54 am
Oh Poor, Jorian de Courcy, I had forgotten about him. I know we will not forget him when Kings Deryni comes out.
The genealogy site has him as a descendent of Alphard de Courcy and Bethany Ainslie. Sad. :'(

The one thing I see from the lists which Lenni has given seems to prove that all the de Courcy's are Deryni. Therefore, in the noble family of Cassan a lot of Deryni blood has been added over the generations which few if any seem to be aware of: Tiphane Lady Ainslie, Ardana Lady de Courcy, and Vera Howard de Corwyn. Added to the fact that Adelicia who is about 1/2 Deryni marries her cousin, Arnall who is 1/4 Deryni, I'm surprised none of them were actually showing Deryni traits. It must have been passed down as the Highland Sight.     
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 22, 2014, 02:56:58 am
And let's throw in that the McLains are a branch of the same Deryni MacLeans that ruled Kierney under the Festils so they brought a little Deryni blood into the family too.


(I worked out a while back that Ithel, Llewell and Sidonie MacArdry-Quinnell were at least 1/64th Deryni (by descent from Rhysel through the McLain and Haldane marriages into the MacFaolan royal line of Howicce as discussed previously). While it's very unlikely they were aware of it I was contemplating an alternate Llewell who not only was aware but was also much more cynical and pragmatic than the rest of his family and would eventually channel his dislike of Loris into throwing that into his face: "I'd ask how much Deryni blood it took to be condemned in your eyes, Loris, but I already know: enough to have powers you yourself lack. Alas for myself I don't merit your spite in that fashion.")

(I see Loris as motivated mostly by power and motivated by spite against those who have power he lacks and those who choose to resist the exercise of the powers he does have - thus his hatred of Deryni in general and of Morgan, Duncan and Kelson in particular.)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Elkhound on November 22, 2014, 09:35:21 am
(I see Loris as motivated mostly by power and motivated by spite against those who have power he lacks and those who choose to resist the exercise of the powers he does have - thus his hatred of Deryni in general and of Morgan, Duncan and Kelson in particular.)

I've always thought that he might have had some unpleasant encounter with a Deryni in his childhood or youth that frightened and traumatized him badly.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Evie on November 22, 2014, 10:05:38 am

The one thing I see from the lists which Lenni has given seems to prove that all the de Courcy's are Deryni. Therefore, in the noble family of Cassan a lot of Deryni blood has been added over the generations which few if any seem to be aware of: Tiphane Lady Ainslie, Ardana Lady de Courcy, and Vera Howard de Corwyn. Added to the fact that Adelicia who is about 1/2 Deryni marries her cousin, Arnall who is 1/4 Deryni, I'm surprised none of them were actually showing Deryni traits. It must have been passed down as the Highland Sight.     

Maybe they carried the trait but it was not expressed, since the Deryni trait is recessive, IIRC. Or they may have been untrained or even unaware they were Deryni. Without training or knowledge of their Deryni heritage, I can see them passing some innate skills like Truth-Reading off as just an uncanny knack for catching people in a lie (after all, some humans are good at that too, just usually not with 100% accuracy), and a power such as creating hand fire, while easy enough for a Deryni child who knows she is Deryni to learn, might remain undiscovered by a child who has no idea she has potential power. And yes, some abilities might have been confused with things like the Second Sight already known and trusted in the borders.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 25, 2014, 08:20:32 am
My research continues and now I'm looking at a family that intermarried with the Haldanes: the MacFaolans. Some of this is a little theoretical.


Gosbert MacFaolan = Tiphanelle Haldane (daughter of Cluim Haldane & Swynebeth FitzArthur-Quinnell, grand-daughter of Tammaron FitzArthur-Quinnell & Tiphane Ainslie) with issue: Carlus II MacFaolan and Bresal II MacFaolan, each in turn kings of Howicce.

Bresal II MacFaolan has issue: Fergus MacFaolan, king of Howicce

Fergus MacFaolan = Lissa McLain (elder daughter of Tairchell McLain, grand-daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis) with issue: Colman I MacFaolan, king of Howicce, and Aude MacFaolan, who marries Judhael Quinnell-Kincaid (son of Rhiryd Kincaid & Annalind Quinnell, grand-son of Jolyon II Quinnell and Urracca Faucon)

Colman I MacFaolan = Gwenael Gruffud with issue: Illann II MacFaolan-Gruffud, king of Howicce, and Richeldis MacFaolan-Gruffud, who marries Donal Haldane (son of Malcolm Haldane and Roisian Quinnell, grand-son of Jolyon II Quinnell and Urracca Faucon) and Cormac MacFaolan-Gruffud (who married Melovee of Calam)

Illann II MacFaolan-Gruffud = Celestine Faucon (daughter of Ursion Faucon & Maisie Alberic, grand-daughter of Charibert Faucon) with issue: Ronan IV MacFaolan-Gruffud and Colman II MacFaolan-Gruffud, each in turn kings of Howicce, and Gwenlian MacFaolan-Gruffud


So through the MacFaolans there's actually a second line of kinship between the Quinnells and Haldanes: Brion and Nigel Haldane's mother and Caitrin Quinnell are first cousins, thus Kelson and Sidonie were second-cousins once-removed through Fergus MacFaolan/Lissa McLain as well as third cousins through Jolyon Quinnell/Urracca Faucon.

Also this McLain connection makes Dhugal and Kelson fourth-cousins through Roger McLain/Glorian McInnis.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on November 25, 2014, 11:54:58 am
What a web we weave!
I think Roger McLain needs his own entry in the Codex. He seems a pivotal player in the genealogy line.
I am following you. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on November 28, 2014, 11:18:48 am
An interesting year emerges as I continue to read through the Codex: 1067

First mention appeared under the Ordo Voc Dei as their Grand Abbot, Michael of Kheldour was instrumental in restoring the old synod to power following the 'rebellion of Theophylact'

Theophylact doesn't have an entry but he appears under the list of Archbishops of Valoret for 1067 and is marked as (Usurper). Neither of the other Sees (Rhemuth or Valoret) changed hands that year so what happened?

Under 1067 we find that Theophylact was an Itinerant Bishop who deposed the sitting Archbishop (who died imprisoned) and was elected by a minority vote as Archbishop and Primate! He wasn't ousted for five months - what in the world was going on!?
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on February 07, 2015, 10:28:07 am
Quote
Fergus MacFaolan = Lissa McLain (elder daughter of Tairchell McLain, grand-daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis) with issue: Colman I MacFaolan, king of Howicce, and Aude MacFaolan, who marries Judhael Quinnell-Kincaid (son of Rhiryd Kincaid & Annalind Quinnell, grand-son of Jolyon II Quinnell and Urracca Faucon)

Drakensis  I just discovered Ayn McLain. She is listed in the Codex page 168 under Malcolm Haldane.
Ayn McLain is a daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis.  Ayn marries Lord Loren Earl of Kilarden(997-1027). Ayn and Loren's son is Rhiryd Kincaid, Earl of Kilarden(1027-1045). Rhiryd marries Annalind Quinnell and have a son Judhael Quinnell- Kincaid, earl of Kilarden (1045-1109).
Kilarden is said to be on the Northern border of Meara with Cassan.

The web is weaving tighter and tighter! ;D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Elkhound on February 07, 2015, 01:30:52 pm
Marrying one's cousins is something royalty and rednecks have in common.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on February 08, 2015, 03:08:02 am
Quote
Fergus MacFaolan = Lissa McLain (elder daughter of Tairchell McLain, grand-daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis) with issue: Colman I MacFaolan, king of Howicce, and Aude MacFaolan, who marries Judhael Quinnell-Kincaid (son of Rhiryd Kincaid & Annalind Quinnell, grand-son of Jolyon II Quinnell and Urracca Faucon)

Drakensis  I just discovered Ayn McLain. She is listed in the Codex page 168 under Malcolm Haldane.
Ayn McLain is a daughter of Roger McLain and Glorian McInnis.  Ayn marries Lord Loren Earl of Kilarden(997-1027). Ayn and Loren's son is Rhiryd Kincaid, Earl of Kilarden(1027-1045). Rhiryd marries Annalind Quinnell and have a son Judhael Quinnell- Kincaid, earl of Kilarden (1045-1109).
Kilarden is said to be on the Northern border of Meara with Cassan.

The web is weaving tighter and tighter! ;D

Thanks Laurna, It is indeed!
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Aerlys on February 17, 2015, 01:30:46 pm
Marrying one's cousins is something royalty and rednecks have in common.

Yep. 'Cause nuthin' sez lovin' like marryin' yer cousin.  ;D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on January 30, 2017, 04:20:13 am
I've gone back into the Codex to look at House Festil's efforts to reclaim Gwynedd in 948 and 983-5.

While the latter is a relatively well-detailed as a major military conflict, the events of 948 are very poorly detailed - something that may be deliberate in-universe.

We know:
* The Festil-Haldane conflict appears to last only 2-3 months and there's no mention of any battles taking place.
* A plague swept through Rhemuth (the Black Death) but it's not clear how widespread it is. We know Deryni are blamed and there's at least one major riot as a result.
* The Earls of Carthane and of Tarleton are killed and the titles attainted, which implies treason on the part of the two Earls (both descended from members of the cabal that ruled Gwynedd under Alroy, Javan and Rhys Michael).
* Secorim (another legacy of the regents) becomes Archbishop of Valoret during the same 2-3 months and dies in the same period. And while earlier in the year, it took just under a month to replace the Archbishop of Rhemuth, it's around another 2-3 months before the vacancies (the new Archbishop of Rhemuth also died) are filled.
* The Kheldour lords seem to be quite hard hit. The Duke of Claibourne, his heir (Earl of Rhendall) and the Earl of Marley all die over the summer, leaving the Howells of Eastmarch the only branch to be unscathed. Whether the cause of death was plague or violence isn't clear.
* In addition to the (assumed) traitors and the Kheldour lords, the only other lords mentioned as dying are the Earl of Kilshane (whose line goes extinct), Duke Tambert of Cassan, and both Iver and Hobard MacInnis (father and brother to Prince Uthyr's bride) with Kierney passing to the (very young) Richard MacInnis and Culdi passing to Hobard's sister Grania MacInnis Haldane. This seems to suggest there wasn't widespread warfare.
* The extended MacRorie family are also significantly depleted - Joram, his nephews Ansel (along with wife  Fiona and brother-in-law Camlin) and Tieg (along with his wife Karis). This leaves the family reduced to Ansel's son Stuart 'MacAthan', Rhysel Thuryn Ainslie and Jerusha Thuryn Drummond (and their descendants). With the Ainslies and Drummonds present at court and the male line renaming themselves MacAthans it seems that this may be the period that the period of them using hidden strongholds ends and the Camberian faction henceforth are hiding in plain sight as ostensibly human families.

The last point seems to shift into speculation, which is really what we're left with.

House Haldane remains very small in size here. Only Owain and Uthyr (and their wives) at the start of 948 and only Uthyr and his son Nygel at the end. It makes sense that Marek Festil might feel they could be easily removed or that an internal attempt might be made to reduce them to figureheads.

It would seem unlikely that the human Earls of Tarleton and Carthane would have allied with the Festils, although they might have been deceived. It seems more possible though that two separate schemes are taking place though.

Marek had seen Rhys Michael's power but his memories had been altered at his own request. Even if they were later restored, it's plausible he doesn't have a grasp on the Haldanes' magic - and of course he's not even dealing with Rhys, but Owain and Uthyr. Owain has likely been prepared since the start of his reign to use his magic very judiciously but ably. The younger prince's magic is hard to guess at since his potential was activated more or less by accident when Owain's magic was activated in The Bastard Prince. It makes sense that Marek might underrate the Haldanes.

Meanwhile, if the Haldanes have gone north (to their Cassan and Kheldour allies) to wait out the plague and riots around Rhemuth it's not impossible that there could have been an attempt to take control of Rhemuth and of the synod by those who look back on the regents with warm feelings. If this is happening alongside a Festillic attempt on the Haldanes then it becomes a dangerous one-two punch.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on January 30, 2017, 01:39:38 pm
Quote
"in the year 948 the King Owain was killed during the invasionof Gwynedd by Marek I pretender of Gwynedd, He was XXIV years of age at his death and was succeeded by his younger brother, the Prince Uthyr.
Codex page 198
Quote
The Prince Uthyr...succeeded his brother, the King Owain, in the year 948, and shortly thereafter defeated the Festillic pretender, Prince Marek I. He was crowned King of Gwynedd by Bertrand de Tolbert Archbishop Primate of Valoret and All Gwynedd on the XXIXth day of September following.
Codex page 253

We do not have the exact date of Marek I's attack on Owain or how long it took for Uthyr to defeat Marek I. I did not look up to see if the Death of Marek is documented, but it will likely be in the summer. Was the plague also in the summer months when the rats and flees were at their most abundant?

I believe you are right about Marek underestimating Uthyr's magic potential. Do you consider that Jorum and Tieg died at the same time as Owain, attempting to protect him, or perhaps failing that, succeeding in protecting Uthyr and his wife and son, Nygel?

Your speculation is intriguing. I presume much is left open by KK so that she could some day fill in the gaps with a grand novel.

Non-the-less a little fan-fic story on your part, drakensis, would be fascinating.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: revanne on January 30, 2017, 04:14:31 pm

 With the Ainslies and Drummonds present at court and the male line renaming themselves MacAthans it seems that this may be the period that the period of them using hidden strongholds ends and the Camberian faction henceforth are hiding in plain sight as ostensibly human families.


I am fascinated by the unrecorded years between the death of King Javan and the events of The Bastard Prince. Something is said somewhere in a conversation between Joram and Queron, which I cannot now locate, which led me to wonder whether it was in those years that the secret location of St Kyriell's was founded.

Rhys Michael is, still, as far as anyone knows, the headstrong Prince whose marriage enabled the betraying of his brother to his death and is entirely the puppet of the Regents. His personal grief at Javan's death would not necessarily be known. If it is in this atmosphere, where the hopes of the Deryni have been crushed once again due to a Haldane Prince, that the Servants of St Camber find their refuge, then that would explain, at least in part, the hostility to his Haldane status experienced by Kelson when he and Dhugal encounter the hidden community.

So maybe... Joram and Queron were responsible for a double approach. Hiding in plain sight, yes, but also with the Servants of St Camber living a secret existence. The Codex tells us that the date of Queron's death is not recorded only that he wore himself out in the service of others in the plague season and thus died. It is possible, then, that both he and Joram died in a time of trauma - even possibly both in 948- and that the secret of St Kyriell's died with them, whether intentionally or not.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on January 31, 2017, 03:40:45 am
We do not have the exact date of Marek I's attack on Owain or how long it took for Uthyr to defeat Marek I.
I've done a little more digging and Marek's entry indicates that 'battle was joined' in Eastmarch in May and Owain died shortly thereafter, but Uthyr defeated Marek's Tolani army. The entire incident is mentioned as taking place between May and July.

I did not look up to see if the Death of Marek is documented, but it will likely be in the summer.
Well, he didn't die then, interestingly. He survived and lived until 981.

Was the plague also in the summer months when the rats and flees were at their most abundant?
The plague appears to have begun in very late March.

I believe you are right about Marek underestimating Uthyr's magic potential. Do you consider that Jorum and Tieg died at the same time as Owain, attempting to protect him, or perhaps failing that, succeeding in protecting Uthyr and his wife and son, Nygel?
It's certainly entirely possible (although Nygel was a package deal with Grania MacInnis at the time, not being born until after the crisis).
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on January 31, 2017, 11:58:18 am
The plague appears to have begun in very late March.
Quote
Owain...Intermarried with Anne Lady Fitz-Arthur Quinnell on the IInd day of May in the Year 947 and by her he had one child:  the Princess Marina, dead at the age of 1 week of the flux. Codex page 198
Then I will say that Owain's daughter died of the plauge in the spring of 948. i wonder if Lady Anne survived or if she too succummed to the sickness.

I've done a little more digging and Marek's entry indicates that 'battle was joined' in Eastmarch in May and Owain died shortly thereafter, but Uthyr defeated Marek's Tolani army. The entire incident is mentioned as taking place between May and July.
That might explain why Owain, heartbroken, went heedlessly into battle with Marek in May of 948.


I believe you are right about Marek underestimating Uthyr's magic potential. Do you consider that Jorum and Tieg died at the same time as Owain, attempting to protect him, or perhaps failing that, succeeding in protecting Uthyr and his wife and son, Nygel?
It's certainly entirely possible (although Nygel was a package deal with Grania MacInnis at the time, not being born until after the crisis).
If Grania was heavily pregnant with the only possible Haldane Heir after Owian's death. Than I can fully understand why Jorum and Tieg did everything in their power, even giving up their lives, to be certain that Prince Nygel and Lady Grania survived. That is the culmination of everything they and their families had stood for all their lives.
Interesting to note that Tieg's children had to go into hiding because of this. What ever happened would not have been looked upon too favorably by the human kings council or perhaps the church.

Well, he didn't die then, interestingly. He survived and lived until 981.
Interesting! This would then explain why Imer II the new Pretender as of 981 gathered his forces and attacked Marbury in the summer of 983. He was a middle aged man by then, making his bid for the Gwynedd crown when it was at last his turn to do so.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on January 31, 2017, 04:46:02 pm
Princess Marissa is described as dying of the Flux almost a month before the Archbishop of Rhemuth is noted as being among the first victims of the plague. Which is strange, IMHO. A plague whose first victims include one of the most prominent men in the kingdom? Suspicious.

While losing his first child would likely have hurt Owain, the unfortunate fact is that these things happen. He would have been aware that royal blood was no defense against losing children and he'd have had his mother and uncle, not to mention his brother and his apparently close friend and brother-in-law Tambert of Cassan as support.

Lady Anne's fate doesn't seem to be mentioned so it seems likely she died at the same time although it must have been a hard time for her: losing her daughter, her husband, her brother (Tambert Fitz-Arthur Quinnell) and her father (Fane Fitz-Arthur) in rapid succession.

(Ironically, Queen Dowager Michaela Drummond survived both of her sons and two of her three grandsons, dying in 989 early in the reign of King Cluim. One suspects she was a quiet centre of strength for the Haldanes for years - in several ways. Given my assumption in fanfiction that Cluim hadn't been primed to carry the Haldane magic, this would likely suggest she was in a reduced capacity by the mid-980s - to be fair, she'd be in her 70s at that point - Rhysel died in 974 which could have severed the last direct connection to the Camberian Council).

Marek had already got King Arion's brother killed in 928 and now Arion's son and heir Karoly lost his arm (and the Patriarch of Torenth died!) in 948. I think it's fair to say that Marek was not the King of Torenth's favorite person and I doubt he was welcome in Beldour until Arion died in 972, passing the crown of Torenth to his grandson Malachy. It was Malachy's oldest son Nimur who was the advocate of the Festils of Tolan in the 980s (which cost him his life, then that of his father and the next brother in line).
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: r2005 on February 10, 2017, 03:06:53 pm
The time  line in the back of The Deryni Archives offers either another hint to 948, but definitely a confusing wrinkle.

Under the 948 there are two lines:

Quote
Mark, son of Imre and Ariella, attempts to retake his throne.

In the century, Rolf MacPherson, a Deryni lord, rebels against the Camberian Council.

The first note has already been well discussed. The second, I really can't speculate on because I don't own the Codex.

I'm pretty sure that Rolf MacPherson was mentioned in passing in one of the Kelson era books. I don't remember which one off the top of my head, and that it was only a name drop.


ETA: I found the line in High Deryni.

Quote
There were and had always been renegade Deryni like Lewys ap Norfal, Rhydon of Eastmarch, Rolf MacPherson of the previous century - men who had rejected the Council's authority, or been expelled from its ranks, or even risen in outright rebellion.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on February 11, 2017, 06:32:13 pm

ETA: I found the line in High Deryni.

Quote
There were and had always been renegade Deryni like Lewys ap Norfal, Rhydon of Eastmarch, Rolf MacPherson of the previous century - men who had rejected the Council's authority, or been expelled from its ranks, or even risen in outright rebellion.

I am glad you found the quote, that gives a little more light on the subject than the Codex does.  I tried to quote the codex last night but apparently my post was lost.

Quote
Codex page 220 "Rolf MacPherson, Lord.  ...born [April 3, 862]... second son of Jamie Baron MacPherson and Ellie Lady Godwin. He never married. This Deryni Lord of the Xth century is said to have rebelled against the authority of the Camberian Council on  [ May 11, 950]*. he died at an unknown date during the persecutions of the Deryni in Gwynedd, reportedly a bitter man, and is buried we know not where."

So, I am afraid this gives little information about 948 unless he was working with the CC in that year and then rebelled against the new members of the CC (since many of the original members had died in 948) two years later. I gather that because he was a Lord, he had inherited some land, but it does not state that he was the Baron as his father was. So his older brother must have carried on the family Barony.

* sorry, I had the wrong date. It was XI[11] day of May,  not IX; my dyslexia is showing. lol
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: r2005 on February 11, 2017, 09:23:03 pm
Quote
Codex page 220 "Rolf MacPherson, Lord.  ...born [April 3, 862]... second son of Jamie Baron MacPherson and Ellie Lady Gdwin. He never married. This Deryni Lord of the Xth century is said to have rebelled against the authority of the Camberian Council on  [ May 9, 950]. he died at an unknown date during the persecutions of the Deryni in Gwynedd, reportedly a bitter man, and is buried we know not where."

So, I am afraid this gives little information about 948 unless he was working with the CC in that year and then rebelled against the new members of the CC (since many of the original members had died in 948) two years later. I gather that because he was a Lord, he had inherited some land, but it does not state that he was the Baron as his father was. So his older brother must have carried on the family Barony.


For many years, I thought that the rebellion against the CC was just another layer to the chaos that happens in 948 based on the information I had. Now having the Codex date, it does make sense that the rebellion comes a bit later. I agree that there has to be some sort of power vacuum in the CC after losing so many important members.

Rolf being a member of the CC could go either way, in my opinion. Since there's so little information about him, I really can't made an educated guess in either direction.

I'm sure like the Lewys ap Norfal stuff, KK has kept the Rolf MacPherson stuff under wraps just to keep us interested and guessing. :)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on May 12, 2017, 02:07:01 am
We do not have the exact date of Marek I's attack on Owain or how long it took for Uthyr to defeat Marek I.
I've done a little more digging and Marek's entry indicates that 'battle was joined' in Eastmarch in May and Owain died shortly thereafter, but Uthyr defeated Marek's Tolani army. The entire incident is mentioned as taking place between May and July.
One more nugget of of information found: Prince Karoly's arm was amputated after the Battle of Laxalt, although it's not clear when or where this was.

Given what happened to Rhys Michael with an infected arm-wound 20 years before, one suspects Marek was sweating that he might have killed off Arion's son (in which case he might have been wisest never going back to Torenth). Still, Karoly presumably had a healer on hand almost immediately.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: DesertRose on May 12, 2017, 04:46:48 am
I'm sure like the Lewys ap Norfal stuff, KK has kept the Rolf MacPherson stuff under wraps just to keep us interested and guessing. :)

That, or the characters haven't yet told her what happened. ;)
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on May 12, 2017, 12:17:14 pm

One more nugget of of information found: Prince Karoly's arm was amputated after the Battle of Laxalt, although it's not clear when or where this was.

Given what happened to Rhys Michael with an infected arm-wound 20 years before, one suspects Marek was sweating that he might have killed off Arion's son (in which case he might have been wisest never going back to Torenth). Still, Karoly presumably had a healer on hand almost immediately.

I love it when you discover tidbits, Drakensis. So Karoly Furstan lost his arm after the battle in 948 "when rot set in." Knowing how royalty is not immune from "rot", considering the circumstances that killed King Rhys Michael Haldane, Karoly willingly let them amputate his arm. But it says he was afflicted in the bowels from this campaign, which gave him much trouble though his life. He may not have had a Healer then. He may have survived on his own forbearance.

Considering how much the Furstans lost time and time again. It is amazing that they continued pursuing Gwynedd's crown for the full two centuries. They were a stubborn family who surely like to keep the Haldanes from getting too comfortable.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on May 14, 2017, 02:51:30 am
Some of the Furstans cared more than others and there are several different motivations.

The Festils (and the princes of Kheldour) were technically vassals of their Torenthi cousins, so their overthrow meant half the Furstan's empire had broken away from them. Having a secure flank to the west (and possibly calling on troops from Gwynedd) may have helped them with their easterly expansion: between 892 and 904, Torenth expanded considerably, adding Lorsal, Vorna and Vechta to the kingdom (collectively those three regions half the size of 9th century Torenth), and reducing Arjenol to a vassal state.

Nimur I was the king of Torenth at the time and likely viewed the death of Imre much as Kelson later felt about the death of Henry Istelyn: a trusted viceroy murdered and a valuable province in rebellion under the leadership of a branch of the previous rulers that has questionable legitimacy. It's no surprise that he backed Ariella or gave sanctuary to Marek. Ariella's defeat not only failed to reclaim Gwynedd, it forced Nimur to look at his western defenses, which had likely been neglected. This may have contributed to Arjenol's attempt to assert its own independence in 916 which led to their full annexation.

If Nimur hadn't died in 917, the same year as Cinhil, it's likely he would have backed a strike during the regency. Fortunately for Gwynedd, his heir was much more cautious. Arion was focused more on consolidating his father's conquests and the annexation of Jandrich (a long term vassal state brought into Torenth by treaty not invasion and the last major expansion of the kingdom we know of), which he was very successful at.

A consideration here is that Festil I not only conquered Gwynedd but also expanded it at the expense of Southmarch and Cassan, but died before he could consolidate and Festil II was less able which contributed to later instablity. Here the conquering king was followed by an able administrator who seems to have laid the foundations of Torenth as a powerful state between the west of the 11 Kingdoms, the east of Byzantun's hegemony, the south of the Moorish kingdoms and the north, in the form of the Norselands. His appointment of Marek as Duke of Tolan may have had more to do with trying to stabilise his northern provinces than providing a foundation for reclaiming Gwynedd.

In any case, Gwynedd didn't look like a soft target. Cinhil had added Kheldour to the kingdom and whatever else might be said of  the regents they incorporated Carthmoor and Cassan into the kingdom, which leaves the two kingdoms of relatively equal size and strength. There was also the uncertainty of how dangerous the Haldanes were. For all Arion knew, an invasion could run into three 'super-Deryni' princes in the form of Alroy, Javan and Rhys. This was less of a concern after 922 with two of the princes dead and a Deryni purge very much in evidence. Deryni refugees likely added to Marek's faction and raised concern for the fate of Deryni who remained in Gwynedd, leading to the probe in 928... but once again  Arion backed away after this failed.

It wasn't until 948 with Arion at the height of his reign, Gwynedd suffering from plague and presumably the concern that with both Owain and Uthyr wed and producing children that the Haldanes would have secure succession in the future that Arion agreed to let Marek and Imre II (of an age with Uthyr) make a serious attempt at Gwynedd. Although his son Karoly went along, Arion was very careful to always act at one remove and when it failed he was ruthless about cutting his losses and making peace with Gwynedd.

Unfortunately for this policy, the Festils of Tolan seem to have remained close with Karoly and later his son Malachy II, who succeeded Arion in 972. Plausibly they may have blamed Karoly's wounds on the Haldanes, thus Malachy's full participation in the war between 983 and 985, leading to the deaths of Malachy and then his son Karoly. This left Karoly's brother Kyprian II determined to avenge the previous losses of his family and made the feud personal for him - leading to a second full-scale attempt in 1025. It likely would have been much sooner if he'd not been quite young and then facing an invasion of Norseman for much of his reign.

Although 1025 was just as devastating a failure as 984 had been, this time the new king of Torenth wasn't a child, but instead a grown man who may have seen the Festils as rivals within the court. Arkady II had actively dethroned his father to halt the support of the Festillic cause (the Festils themselves were now extinct in the male line) and this abruptly ended Torenth support for further western adventurism. It probably helped with this that Malcolm and Donal Blaine were both focused on keeping Meara under control so they weren't about to push against Torenth.

Arkady seems to have been much like his great-great-grandfather Arion in focusing on stabilising his kingdom and rebuilding. After his death in 980 there's a string of kings who seem to have been relatively ineffectual: Nimur, Karoly and then Aldred. Nimur married into the Festil's remaining female line though, which must have been permitted by Arion and thus laid the ground for his nephew by marriage Hogan of Marluk to make his modest bid in 1105. Probably there was no personal stake in it by Nimur who felt that testing the young King Brion would be a low risk endeavour - in fact it refocused Haldane attention on their eastern border.

However, after this there's Wenzel (Wencit) who seems to have both admired and liked Charissa (he offered to marry her even though there were very poor odds of her giving him a male heir). Even if he didn't like her, 1120 was a win-win situation for him. If she succeeded (with very little investment from him) then Gwynedd returned to the fold since Wencit was her heir. If she failed then he inherited the claim and could make an attempt himself or not once he'd had a chance to see how Gwynedd responded to her. As it was, it led to Kelson's support from Deryni being made very public and with Loris fomenting actual rebellion, Gwynedd looked like a very soft target for Wencit who undoubtedly came as close as anyone to bringing Gwynedd back into the Torenthi Hegemony - if Wencit won then it's very likely that Nigel would have honoured the agreement and become a vassal king, which would be much more palatable to Gwynedd's people than re-establishing the Festils. That, of course, is not how it happened...
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on May 14, 2017, 12:56:40 pm
Wonderful summation of the growing Furstan Empire that almost was.  Had it not been for the certain murder of a certain son of a high Deryni Lord in Gwynedd, the Torenthi Empire might have really been. I had not read up on Torenth's expansion to the east. Very interesting. 

I see where in the late eighth century and early ninth century Torenth sent multiple strikes into Eastmarch. These culminate in the full invasion of Gwynedd  and the Coup of the Haldanes in 822 by Prince Festil I, second son of Kalman II King of Torenth. In 826 Prince Festil II, heir to Festil I of Gwynedd, marries the heiress of Mooryn thus breaking up that old empire and attaining it for their own. That frees up Torenth's whole western border allowing them to venture into the East.  I had not thought of it in that way. It makes for a fuller version of the history.

Thanks Drakensis, I bow to your Torenthi Studies.  ;D
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: Laurna on May 14, 2017, 02:06:50 pm
I am surprised King Nimur and then after him, King Arion of Torenth, did not use more of their influence on Corwyn to be a stepping stone to recapture Carthmoor. Until 917, Carthmoor had been a duchy ruled by lesser members of the Festilic line. Of course the Reagents of Prince Alroy quickly put an end to that line.  So by right of heredity, the 'bastard Prince' Merek or later his son Imre could have reclaimed that title as a starting point for reclaiming Gwynedd. All they had to do was use their influence over the interdependent duchy of Corwyn (the Festils had made Corwyn independent after all.) It makes me wonder just how tenuous the relationship was between Torenth and Corwyn. Did King Arion know it would anger the Dukes of Corwyn if he allowed Merek and then Imre to use Corwyn to regain the west? Did the King of Torenth not dare to let the Festils injure his relations with Corwyn. This is a subject I have much interest in for the year 985 (Something I have already speculated on in fanfiction form).
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: drakensis on May 15, 2017, 02:59:50 am
I don't have any specific mention but I suspect that there was reasonable concern that it would spark full-scale war with Gwynedd - something that hadn't gone so well with Ariella. This would have likely required drawing men from the garrisons in the east needed to secure the conquests there, endangering the realm.

In addition, the Dukes of Corwyn are a cadet branch of the House of Buyenne, the Dukes of Joux, which was an independent duchy through the 8th and 9th centuries. Given their positions, an alliance between Joux and Corwyn would have a controlling situation, including possibly strangling Torenth's one outlet onto the Southern Sea. And Duc Reynard III had no sons, so the possibility that Duke Taysan of Corwyn could inherit Joux may have been a serious concern.

The alternative candidate for this was Nimur II's brother Duke Pal of Arkadia, who was married to Duc Reynard's elder daughter. This seems to have been a pretty complex situation because Tralia (between Joux and Torenth) was also a factor and they had a long border with Torenth's new southern provinces.

The resolution worked out in 931 was that Joux was divided with Pal (known locally as Paulard) as the new Duc d'Joux but renouncing Arkadia and becoming a vassal to Tralia. The rest of Joux became Thuria (the name of a independent county Joux had overrun in 812), which was ruled by Reynard's younger daughter who was married to the king of R'Kassi. Presumably Thuria would have looked first to R'Kassi but within a year or two, a coup forced King Rhoupen out of R'Kassi and he took shelter in his wife's lands under Tralian protection. (This seems to mark the beginning of the Forcinn states as satellites of Tralia).

There would also have been what to do if Marek died - he was just an infant when Ariella died after all. It wouldn't have surprised anyone if he died young. In that case the Festillic claim would have reverted to the Counts of Fathane (descended of Festil I's third son). Previously House Festil-Furstan had penned in Corwyn on three sides: Gwynedd proper to the north, Carthmoor to the west and Fathane to the east.

Historically, while the Festils had been vassals to their cousins, it had been a somewhat uneasy relationship: no small part of Lajos I's decision to let Festil make a play for Gwynedd had been to give him something to focus on other than watching his brother's throne avariciously. If Marek died then any prospective renewed Festillic realm through Corwyn and Carthmoor (up to 917) would have elevated the Counts of Fathane to a very strong position on the north coast of the Southern Sea. Gwynedd would have found that hard to ignore and been forced to intervene in what was already a sensitive situation, very probably with Corwyn supporting them rather than Torenth. Nimur had already had to ransom many Torenthi lords after the Battle of Iomaire in 905 so the prospects of another Gwynedd war probably wasn't one he relished.

It's entirely probable that between 905 and 985 that Corwyn was very carefully avoiding any commitment to the Haldanes or the Furstans, with neither kingdom willing to risk pushing the strategically placed duchy into the other's arms.
Title: Re: I just got my copy. . .
Post by: revanne on May 15, 2017, 03:22:09 pm
Though I don't have anything like the knowledge of Laurna and Drakensis - I bow in awed homage of your grasp of historical detail - it makes sense to me that the Furstans would not want to risk driving Corwyn fully into the Gwyneddian camp. That would strengthen Gwynedd's eastern border to a dangerous degree and potentially mean that Gwynedd could pose a serious threat to Torenth, and that would be the case whether Gwynedd was ruled by Festils or Haldanes. As a matter of historical fact it was the support of the Deryni Duke of Corwyn which enable both Brion and Kelson to withstand a renewed Festilic attack and led to Torenth becoming, albeit only temporarily a vassal of the Gwyneddian crown.