The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => The Legends of Camber of Culdi => Topic started by: Marko on March 25, 2018, 06:22:07 pm

Title: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: Marko on March 25, 2018, 06:22:07 pm
Recently I've been rereading the Deryni books and currently I'm reading Camber the Heretic.  One of the things I've wondered about Cinhil is what would have happened if he used the Truth Read ability.  With his continuing vocation to the Priesthood and his revulsion of magic after he killed Hywel of Erne using magic after Hywel had "cursed" him, one might understand why he stopped using his powers.  However, what if he had considered the Truth Read ability to be benign and continued to use it?  Would he have caught Murdoch, Rhun, Hubert and Tammaron lying to him?  Of course the biggest weakness of Truth Reading is knowing the right questions to ask, but with those four being so sure of themselves, I think that at least one of them would have been caught in a lie or two.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: Bynw on March 25, 2018, 06:39:50 pm
It's quite possible he would have caught them in lies. And unfortunately would have caught Camber/Alister as well.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: Marko on March 25, 2018, 07:02:30 pm
Quote
And unfortunately would have caught Camber/Alister as well.
Not sure about that.  Remember that Stefan Coram / Rhydon of Eastmarch had fooled Wencit of Torenth for about 7 years and Wencit had no qualms about using his powers.

Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: DesertRose on March 25, 2018, 08:02:36 pm
Recently I've been rereading the Deryni books and currently I'm reading Camber the Heretic.  One of the things I've wondered about Cinhil is what would have happened if he used the Truth Read ability.  With his continuing vocation to the Priesthood and his revulsion of magic after he killed Hywel of Erne using magic after Hywel had "cursed" him, one might understand why he stopped using his powers.  However, what if he had considered the Truth Read ability to be benign and continued to use it?  Would he have caught Murdoch, Rhun, Hubert and Tammaron lying to him?  Of course the biggest weakness of Truth Reading is knowing the right questions to ask, but with those four being so sure of themselves, I think that at least one of them would have been caught in a lie or two.

It's quite possible he would have caught them in lies. And unfortunately would have caught Camber/Alister as well.

IIRC, in Deryni Magic, KK says that Truth-Read is a passive ability; one knows whether or not someone is telling the truth, but it would not reveal something like Camber's or Stefan's alternate identities unless someone asked a direct question about that, which isn't terribly likely in either circumstance.

It seems from the way Cinhil's son Javan discovered his abilities that Truth-Read just sort of happens; it doesn't seem to require active use or at least it doesn't always require that the Truth-Reader be trying to do so.

It would have been better for rather a lot of people, including but not limited to Alroy, Javan, and Rhys Michael, if Cinhil had deliberately used (or paid attention to) his Truth-Reading ability, though!
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: whitelaughter on May 22, 2018, 06:22:35 am
While it wouldn't help the human lords, the obvious way to trick Wencit is to bury memories; Stefan Coram may have spent a large part of those 7 years unaware that he wasn't actually Rhydon.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: drakensis on May 24, 2018, 01:01:02 am
Truth Reading also depends on what is being asked.

Why would Cinhil ask 'Alister' if he was really Camber? Barring direct questioning a matter of careful phrasing could avoid this.

Deryni courtier: "Your pardon, your eminence but I do not know your name."
Camber: (dry voiced) "You might know me as Alister Cullen, the bishop of Grecotha."
Deryni courtier: (truthreading) *Seems legit.* "Thank you, your eminence."
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: whitelaughter on May 24, 2018, 06:55:26 am
It gets even better:

"But is that your real name?"

IIRC Camber took an additional name when he was made Bishop, openly taking the religious name from when he was in training to be a priest. So he can answer, incredibly truthfully, to his true name: which sadly I can't remember. Kyriel, maybe?
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: DesertRose on May 24, 2018, 08:50:39 am
Kyriell, yes.  It was the name Camber had used when he was in seminary in his youth (Anscom remembers that bit when he's trying to figure out what in the world the abbot of St. Foillan's is talking about regarding Benedict's/Cinhil's disappearance), and he added it to Alister's name during Alister's consecration as Bishop of Grecotha.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: revanne on May 24, 2018, 10:05:54 am
It seems to me that truth reading only really works if one has reason to suspect that the other person is lying and with a rough idea what about. Cinhil had no reason to suspect that Alister Cullen wasn't anything other than he said he was and certainly not Camber.

In the case of Jebediah it was the prior closeness of his friendship with Alister, and his hurt and confusion at Alister's sudden apparent coldness towards him which ultimately triggered the crisis where Alister/Camber had either to take the risk of confiding or kill him. It had little or nothing to do with Jebediah's ability to truth read.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: whitelaughter on May 26, 2018, 07:42:10 am
Kyriell, yes.  It was the name Camber had used when he was in seminary in his youth (Anscom remembers that bit when he's trying to figure out what in the world the abbot of St. Foillan's is talking about regarding Benedict's/Cinhil's disappearance), and he added it to Alister's name during Alister's consecration as Bishop of Grecotha.

Thanks for that! So yes, that is his true name. And since Anscom knew who he was and made him Bishop of Grecotha, the title is True as well. That should be pretty solid. Heck, Camber's 'true' name arguably *was* Alister Cullen, given that the highest religious authority in the land had used it in such a holy ceremony; it would be a lot stronger than a modern deed poll.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: Bynw on May 26, 2018, 07:48:00 am
It seems to me that truth reading only really works if one has reason to suspect that the other person is lying and with a rough idea what about. Cinhil had no reason to suspect that Alister Cullen wasn't anything other than he said he was and certainly not Camber.


That is true. Truth Reading has only been used during a questioning time. When one would think that your subject might lie.

I did say that if Cinhil used it he might have caught Camber/Alister. It would depend on what transpired. Since Cinhil would have acted differently than he did in the books had he used his powers more. It would make for an interesting alternate history.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: DesertRose on May 26, 2018, 08:59:07 am
It seems to me that truth reading only really works if one has reason to suspect that the other person is lying and with a rough idea what about. Cinhil had no reason to suspect that Alister Cullen wasn't anything other than he said he was and certainly not Camber.


That is true. Truth Reading has only been used during a questioning time. When one would think that your subject might lie.

I did say that if Cinhil used it he might have caught Camber/Alister. It would depend on what transpired. Since Cinhil would have acted differently than he did in the books had he used his powers more. It would make for an interesting alternate history.

It seems like that isn't always true, that Truth Reading is only used during questioning.  Prince Javan tells Tavis that he just knows when the Regents (and assorted others attached to the court) are lying, even though Javan is not only not questioning them but not really involved in the conversation at all, merely present for it.

That being said, Javan is clearly more sensitive to the Haldane potential than either his father or his brother; Cinhil appears to have actively eschewed the powers, and Alroy is kept too heavily sedated to be able to use them.

But yes, I think had Cinhil had a reason to suspect that Alister was really Camber (at least, before he found out in the last few minutes of his mortal life) and had he been more inclined to use the Haldane powers, he might have figured out the ruse.  Probably best he didn't in that case, but it would have been a lot better for his sons and Gwynedd in general had he applied Truth Reading to the Regents.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: Bynw on May 26, 2018, 09:35:33 am
You dont have to be the one asking the questions in order to Truth Read. Even when Kelson and Dhugal were found by the group of mountain Servants of Saint Camber after digging out through the graves. They were being questioned by several and also being truth read by others.
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: DesertRose on May 26, 2018, 09:48:35 am
You dont have to be the one asking the questions in order to Truth Read. Even when Kelson and Dhugal were found by the group of mountain Servants of Saint Camber after digging out through the graves. They were being questioned by several and also being truth read by others.

That's true.  :)
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: Shiral on May 26, 2018, 03:06:38 pm
While it wouldn't help the human lords, the obvious way to trick Wencit is to bury memories; Stefan Coram may have spent a large part of those 7 years unaware that he wasn't actually Rhydon.

An interesting idea. However,I don't get that impression of Stefan Coram from the information we get in High Deryni. I think Coram, much like Camber, took advantage of a unique opportunity to impersonate someone else, and accepted the risks as well as the advantages that came with it, while always retaining the consciousness of his true identity.

Melissa
Title: Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities?
Post by: Bynw on May 26, 2018, 05:51:48 pm
While it wouldn't help the human lords, the obvious way to trick Wencit is to bury memories; Stefan Coram may have spent a large part of those 7 years unaware that he wasn't actually Rhydon.

An interesting idea. However,I don't get that impression of Stefan Coram from the information we getin High Deryni. I think Coram, much like Camber, took advantage of a unique opportunity to impersonate someone else, and accepted the risks as well as the advantages that came with it, while always retaining the consciousness of his true identity.

Melissa


If only Susie were here to comment on that. I'm sure she would have a lot more to say. Someday, on the otherside we will get to hear her thoughts on this subject.