The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

FanFiction => revanne's FanFic => Topic started by: revanne on June 15, 2017, 03:45:01 pm

Title: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: revanne on June 15, 2017, 03:45:01 pm
Link to previous chapter
http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,2059.msg16665.html#msg16665


As the door closed, Kelson returned to his seat and gestured for Dhugal and Jatham to regain theirs. Serious now, he poured more wine, raised his cup in salute to Jatham and said softly, “Please give my heartfelt condolences to your lady, and tell her that she is always welcome back here at court.”
 
“Thank you, Sire. I will tell her so, and she will appreciate the kindness. She fears to be the subject of gossip, though I keep assuring her that there is no need.”
 
“Indeed not! And I will, of course, expect her to be at Christmas Court to help welcome my latest Earl.“
 
Jatham nodded acknowledgement of the King’s words without really registering what had been said. Then, realising by the King’s expectant pause that a further response was needed, he tried, without success, to make sense of what he had heard. Tired and emotionally overwrought, his usual careful deference left him, and he lacked the energy to hide his exasperation at what could only be an ill-timed jest.
 
“God damn it, Kelson, don't play games!” As he heard the words leave his mouth, he felt sick as he realised his breach of protocol. Not daring to look at the king for fear of the steely anger in those grey eyes which he fully expected to see and considered he deserved, he slid forward as though to go to his knees. “I beg your indulgence, Sire, I…” he was beginning but was stopped as Kelson reached across and took a firm hold of his wrist to keep him in his seat. Shocked into jerking his head up, he was confused to see that Kelson looked as apologetic as he felt - kings couldn't be in the wrong, could they? - but there was no doubting the compunction in Kelson’s voice.
 
“No, my friend, I beg your indulgence for giving you such a shock. But I think it is time you put the past behind you and learnt the true value I put on you. As king, there are few people whom I can entirely trust; you and this reprobate here are amongst them. I count you as a friend, and I truly would prefer it, if you would treat me as your friend when we are in private. Please believe me, there is no need for you to apologise.”
 
Jatham recognised that Kelson was speaking from his heart, but it was not so easy to lay aside Prince Nigel’s words to him when he had first begun to act as squire to the king. “He is a gentle Prince and will treat you kindly, but whatever he says to you, you must never, ever, forget that he is the King.” He looked at Dhugal for reassurance and guidance, but there was no help to be had there; Dhugal was gazing moodily  around the room, although whether he was angry with Jatham or Kelson or both, Jatham found it  impossible to tell.
 
Kelson had no such doubts.
 
Dhugal, if you don't stop scowling, how do you think Jatham will accept a word I've just said? Unless, of course, you'd prefer that I  explain that he has been the subject of a wager between us? A wager which you have just lost.
 
Dhugal was forced to accept that the rebuke was justified, although the satisfaction in Kelson’s mental tone in his final remark was infuriating. Slamming his shields down on his irritation at losing a wager on what  he had thought was a certainty, he did at least manage to stop glowering and added his reassurance.
 
“Aye, yon’s just jumped up a wee bit further, that’s all.”
 
I can see the ring in my mind's eye.  Purest Cassani gold, I think it was you said? A rather lovely red gold, if I remember rightly?
 
Hmph

 
Kelson knew that he would enjoy crowing over Dhugal in the coming weeks, just as Dhugal had done in other wagers that he had won, but what had begun as a light-hearted jest would be poisoned if Jatham remained distressed. The immediate priority must be to reassure him that offence had neither been committed nor taken. Smiling at Jatham as he released his wrist, he deliberately lightened his tone.
 
 “As a peer of the realm, it will be part of your role to question me, and I dare say that I deserve to be sworn at from time to time. Although the use of really bad language is reserved to my Dukes - well,  Alaric and Dhugal, and of course Graham, who was well taught by his father; Nigel generally reserves his epithets for pages and squires, as I daresay you remember all too well.”
 
“All too painfully. God knows what he would have said had he been present a few moments ago.”
 
“Sometimes I think that Nigel’s training is a little too thorough. But on this occasion, given that it’s more than ten years since you were my squire, you would have had nothing to fear. Nigel thinks very highly of you. I, though, would have been rightly roasted for my inept handling of what should have been a cause for celebration. I confess I sprang the news on you suddenly, but I thought you would take my meaning. Surely you must have realised, after all the glowing reports I have had from Duncan and Dhugal, that sooner or later I would make good my implication on your wedding day of restoring the Earldom of Kilshane.”
 
But, I'm not of noble blood, and you have already been more than generous to Janniver and me,  S…” Jatham just managed to bite off most of the honorific.
 
“This is not about generosity, it’s a reward for hard work and ability. Dhugal tells me that he already treats you as his deputy in your part of his Duchy, and it's only right to make that official. And at least in the short-term, I fear that it will increase your responsibility rather than your income. On a personal level it pleases me to be able to reward a friend, but that is not why I am doing this. I can't show anything which smacks of favouritism without provoking a hornets’ nest of resentment at court,  nor would I insult your honour and integrity in such a way.”
 
Jatham nodded his recognition of the truth of what the king was saying but still appeared dazed.
 
“Laying aside your personal worthiness for the honour, though that is not a negligible consideration, at least see the sense in my reasoning,” Kelson continued in measured tones, but then burst out. “Bloody hell, Jatham, you must be the only person at court who I would have to argue into an honour!” 
 
“If you two have finished swearing at each other, maybe it's left to me to talk some sense!.”
 
Ah, you’re back with us, Dhugal, I see.
 
Aye, but only to reassure Jatham. I still say you cheated and shocked him into it.
 
Impugn the honour of your king, would you?
 
When he cheats, aye!
 
I'll admit to misjudgement - I was trying to surprise him with some good news --but go ahead and think the worst of me, if it makes you feel better.
 

“I can understand how you feel, Jatham,” Dhugal continued as smoothly as if the outwardly silent interchange with Kelson had not happened. “I grew up expecting to be a human border earl, and then, for reasons that have little to do with any personal qualities, I find myself a Duke,  a Deryni, and with a bishop for my father. The truth is that Kelson needs you as much for what you are as who you are.”
 
“I wouldn't put it quite so bluntly,” interjected Kelson “but basically that's true. Two of the three non-royal Dukes in Gwynedd are now Deryni, and at least one prominent family in my service will sooner or later be revealed as Deryni - the fact that I'm telling you that is a measure of my trust. I need to show clearly that loyal, effective, human service to my crown will be rewarded. An end to persecution of Deryni does not mean a return to the abuses of the past. I need this to happen, but I want you to be happy about it too.”
 
“I am your loyal servant, Sire, and your will is mine. And it is no less than Janniver deserves.” Blinking away tears of emotion, Jatham suddenly smiled and added, “I trust that Janniver’s father will get to hear of her new rank?”
 
Kelson’s eyes narrowed, though he too smiled as he said, “You can trust me for that!” Pausing to savour the thought, he added, “There are a number of procedural issues that need to be sorted, but they can wait until the Autumn - and they mainly affect Dhugal and myself, so they are straightforward enough. Your allegiance will be owed directly to me rather than through Dhugal, but I see no reason why that should affect the way you work together. Your new rank will be ratified at Christmas Court…” but Kelson’s words were cut off as, very deliberately, Jatham rose from his seat and dropped to his knees before the king. Nothing could have been further from his panicked attempt to kneel just a short time earlier; though his eyes were shining with tears, his head was held proudly high. Kelson wisely held his peace and waited for Jatham to speak, shooting a warning glance at Dhugal.
 
“To serve my King faithfully is all that I’ve ever desired, to be counted his friend is more honour than I would have dared to dream. So, Kelson, my Liege, let me beg this favour.  This will be done with ceremony at next Christmas Court and on other occasions in the future, but for this first time let me give you my fealty, here in private and simply, as man to man.” So speaking, Jatham put his hands together and held them out towards his King.  Blinking back his own tears, Kelson leaned forward and enclosed Jatham’s hands in his, and they exchanged the formal words of fealty, knowing that they sealed so much more than Jatham’s new rank. As Jatham bowed his head to kiss the royal hands holding his, he was startled, but unafraid, to hear the King speak into his mind, Thank you, my friend, but the honour is mine. As Kelson’s mind touched Jatham’s, the simplicity of the other’s loyalty was like a draught of spring water purging his own pride.
 
Dhugal had risen quietly and gone across to stand looking out of the window, ostensibly to avoid intruding on this personal moment, but in truth because he too was moved. Waiting until he had heard Jatham rise and giving his two friends, with whom he had shared the ceremony of knighthood, a few moments more to embrace, he turned and walked the few paces across the room to himself enfold Jatham in a joyful bearhug.
 
Well, that’s humbled the pair of us, my lord King. You get your ring, but I’m thinking it’s Jatham that deserves it.
 
As he regained his seat and gestured Dhugal and Jatham to theirs, Kelson struggled to regain his train of thought. He was grateful when Dhugal broke the mood by saying to Jatham.
 
“He’s welcome to your fealty but he’s no’ having ma share of yon uisghe beatha”.
 
Kelson Sent to Dhugal, I reckon we could all do with some now if it’s as good as you say, then continued smoothly to Jatham,“Please assure Janniver that she need have no fear of tale-bearing tongues at court. She will be welcomed into the Queen’s personal quarters, and Araxie and Meraude between them keep a close eye on those they know to have malicious tendencies. Believe me, few choose to cross my lady more than once, for all she is so gentle.” Kelson made no attempt to hide his loving pride in his wife, and this glimpse of his obvious happiness gave real pleasure to Jatham, who had perforce been privy to the heartache of the King’s earlier years.
 
I do need to warn you, though, that Rory will take the opportunity to be after your services, with my reluctant permission, since his gain is my loss. He has been asking that I spare you to give him help with overhauling the vice-regal chancery in Meara, now that his authority is firmly established there. A hundred years of insurrection have, in his words, ‘Created almost as “bloody a mess in the chancery as it did on the battlefield!’”.
 
“Please tell his Highness that I would be delighted.”
 
“Somehow, I thought you might be. The frightening thing is that you actually mean it. And politically too, the support of a human Earl in the borders will be of benefit to Rory in Meara. Now…” Kelson rose to indicate that any discussion was finished, and Dhugal and Jatham rose with him. “Now, do please let Dhugal take you back through to Cassan, to set you on your way home. I’d feel much happier to know that you were with your wife, for the next few weeks at least. This is not an order, but it is a request from an old friend who cares deeply for you both.”
 
Jatham did not trust himself to speak but nodded acquiescence, then hesitated, unsure of how much formality to use in leaving the royal presence, but was rescued by Dhugal who jumped in good humouredly, “Ye’re no strictly speaking an earl yet, so ye’d best gi’e him a proper bow.” Jatham noted that for all his jocularity Dhugal’s own farewell bow combined respect with informality. Kelson nodded acknowledgement of their reverences and then went to open the door before ushering them through.”I’ll leave it to you and Dhugal to agree when you go, since I know that you will wish to leave everything in order here. Just don’t leave it too long. Go with God, my friend.” Thus saying, Kelson beckoned to Colin to come and clear away the wine and turned back into the inner room.
 
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Jerusha on June 15, 2017, 06:35:18 pm
A lovely conclusion.  Jatham deserves his honour, and Kelson has reinforced a loyal supporter.  And humans also need to rise within the ranks of Gwynedd, so all is well done.

There is more coming, yes?  :)
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: DerynifanK on June 15, 2017, 08:37:22 pm
I so enjoyed this chapter. I had a suspicion that Kelson was going to make Jatham an earl as he indicated he would  at their wedding. I loved his explanation  of his reasoning. I see the need to tread carefully as Deryni resume their full place in society. Am looking forward to  more of this story line, And I still  want to know  who the ghost is and who will be the new Scola students. Also enjoyed the glimpse of Araxie' s role in the court. More please 😊
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Laurna on June 16, 2017, 12:08:45 pm
Good chapter! I dare say Kelson's jest was a bit untimely, as poor Jatham had been emotionally on the edge for some time. But I love that Dhugal lost his Wager. I am thinking that Cassani gold signate ring will need an intricate engraving with the seal of The Earldom of Kilshane upon it, to be given properly to Jatham as it is he who deserves the reward for that bet. ;D

Question on alliances for baronies and earldoms that fall inside the lands of a duchy. Ultimately every one owes their fealty to the sovereign, but do they not look to the duke first as an inbetween to the king. Kilshane is on the coast between Cassan and Transha, does the earldom tithe goods or moneys to both duchy and kingdom? (not unlike paying local taxes, state taxes and federal taxes.) Or has this earldom just been made independent of Cassan?
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: DesertRose on June 16, 2017, 02:32:00 pm
Very nice epilogue, and I love the way Dhugal lost the wager!  (I suspected he eventually would, but I love the way it happened.)
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: revanne on June 16, 2017, 02:49:45 pm
Good chapter! I dare say Kelson's jest was a bit untimely, as poor Jatham had been emotionally on the edge for some time.

As I wrote the story (and I changed it quite a lot) I imagined that Kelson had been intending a gentle, mildly teasing way of surprising Jatham with the news of his Earldom, as a positive way of ending what was always going to be an emotionally difficult meeting for Jatham, with all the bad memories which talk of Janniver's father would inevitably bring up. And if he managed to surprise a "Kelson", out of him, so much the better. He had not allowed for the added trauma of the baby's loss - which of course he didn't know about until the start of the previous meeting. More importantly,  I don't think Kelson gets that it has not crossed Jatham's mind that the mention of an Earldom for him was in any way serious - if he remembers it at all, it's just something kind that Kelson said at his wedding but not within the realms of possibility. Born to assured status, it's an understandable blind spot with Kelson that he doesn't really understand those who are less secure, something which I think comes out in his mishandling of Conall, with much more tragic consequences.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: revanne on June 16, 2017, 03:16:04 pm

Question on alliances for baronies and earldoms that fall inside the lands of a duchy. Ultimately every one owes their fealty to the sovereign, but do they not look to the duke first as an inbetween to the king. Kilshane is on the coast between Cassan and Transha, does the earldom tithe goods or moneys to both duchy and kingdom? (not unlike paying local taxes, state taxes and federal taxes.) Or has this earldom just been made independent of Cassan?

That's a good question - Demercia thought the same as you. I'm not sure to be honest, although for dramatic purposes I chose to make the new earl owe allegiance directly to the crown. I think there are some good arguments as to why it might be set up in that way though. The only earldoms I can think of in canon are Marley and Derry, which appear to owe allegiance directly to the crown, and Kierney which is a title borne by the heir to Cassan. I couldn't think of another earldom owing allegiance to a Duchy. And it emphasizes the point of loyal human service being rewarded by the Crown. Kelson has had trouble in the past with disloyal border Barons (Brice amongst others), and even in Transha loyalty to the Crown was not a foregone conclusion. The historical movement in Gwynedd over the centuries has been bring allegiances more directly to the Crown.

The counter-argument is of course, as you say, that  Kilshane is entirely enclosed, as far as land borders go, by Cassan and that there would be a loss of revenue to the Duchy. I am sure that Kelson has discussed this fully with Duncan and Dhugal.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: DesertRose on June 16, 2017, 03:42:58 pm
Question on alliances for baronies and earldoms that fall inside the lands of a duchy. Ultimately every one owes their fealty to the sovereign, but do they not look to the duke first as an inbetween to the king. Kilshane is on the coast between Cassan and Transha, does the earldom tithe goods or moneys to both duchy and kingdom? (not unlike paying local taxes, state taxes and federal taxes.) Or has this earldom just been made independent of Cassan?

It seems like in the real world, there are a few families with multiple titles, as: Father is Duke or Marquess of [Estate A], Eldest Son is Earl of [Estate B], and sometimes Eldest Son's Eldest Son is Viscount or Baron [Estate C].  It seems like these families are usually either royal/related to the royal family or very wealthy or both.  I would think in most cases, probably fealty and taxes are generally owed directly to the crown, even in the cases of multiple titles within the same family, such as Kierney and Cassan (and now Transha) all being in the MacArdry McLain line.  Or possibly there are separate duties owed to an intermediate overlord/lady in addition to those owed to the crown?

But I'm just a Yank, no expert.  ;)
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: DerynifanK on June 16, 2017, 04:59:37 pm
I remember from KKB that Kelson intended to make Jatham an earl but Nigel suggested that he should be allowed to prove himself as a baron first. He has done much more than that and is more than deserving of the earldom. Kelson not only won his wager, Jatham actually said his name twice.
I also really like the balance of humans supporting the  education of deryni at the schola and deryni supporting the education of humans at Grecotha. I forsee a peaceful and happy future for Gwynedd. Wish we had a Kelson. A wonderfully constructed story. Loved it!
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Evie on June 16, 2017, 11:03:21 pm

Question on alliances for baronies and earldoms that fall inside the lands of a duchy. Ultimately every one owes their fealty to the sovereign, but do they not look to the duke first as an inbetween to the king. Kilshane is on the coast between Cassan and Transha, does the earldom tithe goods or moneys to both duchy and kingdom? (not unlike paying local taxes, state taxes and federal taxes.) Or has this earldom just been made independent of Cassan?

Cited from p. 35 of The Deryni Adventure Game:  "Counties are held as part of a dukedom or received directly from the king.  'Earl' is the typical title in Gwynedd, Meara,  and occasionally in Howicce and Llannedd,  while 'Count' is used in other kingdoms like Bremagne and Torenth.  County holdings range widely in size and influence."  The same page also says "Baronies tend to be smaller holdings, usually in fealty to either a duke or earl/count, but occasionally held directly from the king. Some areas, like Meara, are primarily made up of baronies."  It also discusses nobility who hold estates that have no inherent titles associated with them (Lords and Ladies who have no higher title than that), and says that anyone with the title of Lord or Lady holds at least the equivalent of baronial rank, even though they might not have the extensive lands attached to that title. 

So it appears that Kelson could have chosen to have Jatham's fealty continue to be through Dhugal, but he chose to receive it directly instead once Jatham becomes an Earl. And I'm sure a lot of discussion and careful deliberation took place behind the scenes before any final decision was reached about Jatham's transference of direct fealty.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: drakensis on June 17, 2017, 02:21:24 am
Transha and Eastmarch are counties owning fealty to the king (tenants-in-chief was the historic term in our world). Earl of Rhendall is a secondary title of the Duke of Claibourne, traditionally held by the Duke's heir. Culdi and Carthane are also counties owing direct fealty to the king, although slightly complicated in that by Kelson's time they're held by junior branches of the Haldanes.

It's very possible that the domains of a lord are made up of a number of estates that may not have continguous borders, as was the case in our world by the late medieval era.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: revanne on June 18, 2017, 01:25:29 pm
I had forgotten Transha, which was very foolish of me. But that is a very good model for Kilshane.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: revanne on June 18, 2017, 01:37:52 pm
I am working on the stories of some of the Schola students who will benefit from  the Kilshane Bequest, and who will be involved with the ghost at Valoret   So yes more to come but I am a slow writer.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Laurna on June 18, 2017, 11:37:20 pm
I am working on the stories of some of the Schola students who will benefit from  the Kilshane Bequest, and who will be involved with the ghost at Valoret   So yes more to come but I am a slow writer.
Oh yes, I am still very curious about Duncan's Ghost of Valoret.  Love, love to hear more. P.S. I am the master of slow writer's guild, you can happily join my guild at any time, to the frustration of the readers. LOL.

I have been giving some thought to the lay of the land, so to say. Who owes fealty to whom. Now you must know that this is only my own conclusions, I do not have much knowledge on real world peerages or how they line up. So please correct me if I am wrong.
 
In King Kelson’s early reign around 1128 (I am presuming he is going to have a very long successful reign),  I have accounted for eight Duchies of Gwynedd: Carthmoor, Cassan, Claibourne, Corwyn, Haldane, Laas(Meara), and Travlum.
The Duchies of Haldane, Carthmoor, Laas, Ratharkin and Travlum are held by members of the royal family.
 
I can find sixteen Earldoms of Gwynedd: Carcashale, Carthane, Cloome, Culdi, Derry, Eastmarch, Jenas, Kierney, Kilarden, Kheldour, Lendour, Marley, Pelagog, Rhendall, Transha, and Sheele.
 
Three earldoms are not current peerages in 1128: Kilshane in which the title became extinct in 948 and re-granted by King Kelson after 1128(Which is the subject of this wonderful story); Tarleton which was revived as barony after 948; and Fintan which was escheated to the crown in 983.
 
On the subject of an Earldom’s independence from a Duchy, as Evie has documented,  I am thinking that the earldoms all were originally independent lands, owing their fealty directly to the king. However, over time, as the dynamics of families change, with family lines ending and marriages changing the control of lands through dowries, I can see where the duchies begin to move the earldoms under their wider and wider spreading arms. It then becomes a question of how much land a family has the influence to successfully control.

I am correcting this list of the duchies of Gwynedd and their subsidiary titles in the year 1128 from the continued contributions of following posts. Thank you everyone.

Royal duchies:
Haldane
Carthmoor
Ratharkin
Travlum

Non royal duchies:
Cassan: Kierney, Transha
Clairbourne: Kheldour
Corwyn: Lendour
Laas: Kilarden
 
So yes, I do believe that when King Kelson upgrades Kilshane from a Barony to an Earldom that it will become independent of Cassan. This is indeed a huge step upward in the ranks of nobility for Jatham. It is no wonder that Jatham was completely taken back by Kelson’s jest.  Revanne, I love your explanation of Kelson thinking ahead of time to make it a “mild teasing” and “positive way of ending” their meeting.  And Jatham seeing it as an utter impossibility and surprise.
 
It means much that Duke Dhugal willingly sponsored the Baron of Kilshane to rise to the status of Earl. Regardless,  I am thinking Cassan will request some form of compensation from the crown for using what in modern terms would be considered a compulsory purchase (UK) or an eminent domain (USA) of the duchies land by the crown.  For the sake of maintaining and rewarding loyalties, I can see it happening.   

When you are ready, More Please!
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: drakensis on June 19, 2017, 02:24:30 am
Carthane is held independently of Carthmoor by a different branch of the Haldanes (and in current granting is the older title). The Pirek-Haldanes descend from Cluim Haldane's younger son, who renounced his claim to the throne of Gwynedd in order to wed a ducal heiress in Howicce. When he died, his titles in Gywnedd went to his younger son.

I was surprised to see Kheldour but you're right: the Earldom of Rhendall, which I thought was the heir's title, is actually a separate branch of the MacEwans and has been since 948, with Kheldour as the heir's title. (Eastmarch and Marley are held by MacEwan descendants but in the female line, thus Howell/Varian and Coris.

It's not clear if Cloome is subordinate to Laas - it seems unlikely. It's certainly not held by the Ramseys, as Laas and Kilarden are due to Kelson's grants.

It's an interesting note on Carthmoor while I think about it - it seems that this Duchy, but only this one, isn't inheritable through the female line. Araxie's father was Duke of Carthmoor, but on his death it reverted to the crown and was granted to Nigel, whereas Culdi went to Araxie's elder sister. This doesn't seem to be the case for other duchies - Cassan and Corwyn have both had succession through the female line twice - so it may be a peculiarity of House Haldane for 'royal' duchies (the same happened with Travlum) - which would make some degree of sense in order to keep the most powerful holdings of the royal family from entirely leaving the Haldane control.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Laurna on June 19, 2017, 12:20:42 pm
Thank you for the review Drakensis. Most of my study is from 983-5 so I may have missed a bit in the translation to  1125.

Four duchies stay in the royal family of Haldane and are awarded by the king and not necessarily by inheritance rights.
The Duchy of Haldane is held directly by the King.
The Duchy of Carthmoor is traditional held by the second son of the House of Haldane.  Prince Cluim was the Earl of Cathane which is why I was thinking it was associated with Carthmoor, but you are correct that Cluim's son, Rhys Michael Perek- Haldane made that a separate earldom.
The Duchy of Travlum was held by several sons of King Urien but then went into abeyance, until Kelson awarded the duchy to Prince Payne.
We all know the trouble with Meara and how Prince Rory became the Duke of Laas.

That leaves the three non-royal duchies that are held by inheritance (two of which are Deryni): Cassan, Corwyn, and Claibourne.

I am reading about the earldom of Rhendall. Codex says, it originally was a secondary title to the Duke of Claibourne, but after 948 the title went to a surviving granddaughter. She married Brion Traherne. I am thinking, from that time on, the Earldom has stayed independent of the duchy.

Revanne, see what interests your wonderful story has provoked.  ;D
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: revanne on June 19, 2017, 05:26:18 pm
Glad to have started something!

I have always assumed that the title of Duke of Carthmoor is the equivalent of the Duke of York in England i.e. the title of the second son of the monarch. The French equivalent in pre-revolutionary days was the Duc D'Orleans. If that is right then Araxie's father, Prince Richard, younger brother of King Donal, would not have passed the title on even if he had had a son, instead it would have reverted to the Crown on his death in order to be passed on to the next generation's second son, in this case Prince Nigel.

I don’t have my codex ready to hand but wasn't the Duchy of Laas revived in the first  instance to compensate Rory's troublesome mother-in-law for failing to win a king for her daughter (as indeed for herself) and would only go to Rory on his father-in-law's death. Sorry their names escape me, though I know she was a thrower of crockery.

Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Jerusha on June 19, 2017, 09:34:55 pm
That lady would be Oksana, thrower of crockery extraordinary. 
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: drakensis on June 20, 2017, 12:51:42 am
I have always assumed that the title of Duke of Carthmoor is the equivalent of the Duke of York in England i.e. the title of the second son of the monarch. The French equivalent in pre-revolutionary days was the Duc D'Orleans. If that is right then Araxie's father, Prince Richard, younger brother of King Donal, would not have passed the title on even if he had had a son, instead it would have reverted to the Crown on his death in order to be passed on to the next generation's second son, in this case Prince Nigel.
That might be the case, but it seems that it'll pass down from Nigel to Albin - although that might be Kelson's preference rather than required.

Duke of York doesn't automatically revert after the first generation, it's just that circumstantially it's repeatedly reverted back to the crown. Six dukes of York have become king (five times due to older brothers predeceasing their father, once through overthrowing the reigning king). Of the other two creations, one died young (one of the Princes in the Tower) and the last is still alive - although interestingly it seems the title may revert due to lack of a male heir rather than passing to his elder daughter. There's only one occasion where the title was passed down through a family line, the first creation which lasted through 4 generations.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: revanne on June 20, 2017, 02:58:01 am
I have always assumed that the title of Duke of Carthmoor is the equivalent of the Duke of York in England i.e. the title of the second son of the monarch. The French equivalent in pre-revolutionary days was the Duc D'Orleans. If that is right then Araxie's father, Prince Richard, younger brother of King Donal, would not have passed the title on even if he had had a son, instead it would have reverted to the Crown on his death in order to be passed on to the next generation's second son, in this case Prince Nigel.
That might be the case, but it seems that it'll pass down from Nigel to Albin - although that might be Kelson's preference rather than required.

Duke of York doesn't automatically revert after the first generation, it's just that circumstantially it's repeatedly reverted back to the crown. Six dukes of York have become king (five times due to older brothers predeceasing their father, once through overthrowing the reigning king). Of the other two creations, one died young (one of the Princes in the Tower) and the last is still alive - although interestingly it seems the title may revert due to lack of a male heir rather than passing to his elder daughter. There's only one occasion where the title was passed down through a family line, the first creation which lasted through 4 generations.

Thank you, Drakensis. I did wonder if I was correct and then thought that surely a title could not as consistently reverted. Being Duke of York is clearly not a good prospect for living a long and peaceful life surrounded by ones sons. So many hares have started in my brain now about a melodramatic and fantastical tale of how Henry VI of Lancaster, deposed and languishing in the Tower, cursed the House of York that had brought him to this pass. It would make a good story.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: drakensis on June 21, 2017, 02:12:53 am
On the contrary: many Dukes of York have lived long and successful lives: Edward IV, Henry VIII, Charles I, George V, George VI for example.

It's much more ominous to be the elder brother of a Duke of York!
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: DesertRose on June 21, 2017, 10:51:21 am
I think it's Duke of Gloucester that's the cursed title.  ;)
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Laurna on June 21, 2017, 11:44:04 am
I think it's Duke of Gloucester that's the cursed title.  ;)
I can understand why, DR.  After the above comments, I had to look up the story of the 'two princes in the tower'. This was the first time I had heard this story. It is unbelievable what an uncle will do for power. So it says, Richard, Duke of Gloucester was named the Lord Protector of the 12 year old King Edward and his 9 year old brother Prince Richard. The Duke of Gloucester housed the boys in the Tower of London away from their mother, where they were never heard from again, and then he took the throne for himself. WOW!

Just like the Haldane trouble with Regents after Cinhil's passing. How does one control Wanton Greed?
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: DesertRose on June 21, 2017, 11:53:05 am
Look up the title in general.  There have been a number of Dukes of Gloucester to meet early deaths.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Demercia on June 21, 2017, 04:14:30 pm
Though, laurna, that is one of the most contested events in English history.  A lot of people don't believe Richard did murder his nephews.  This Richard, btw, is the same whose body was discovered under a carpark in Leicester, where Revanne and I come from as it happens, a couple of years ago and reburied with great ceremony in the Cathedral there.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: DesertRose on June 21, 2017, 04:27:45 pm
Though, laurna, that is one of the most contested events in English history.  A lot of people don't believe Richard did murder his nephews.  This Richard, btw, is the same whose body was discovered under a carpark in Leicester, where Revanne and I come from as it happens, a couple of years ago and reburied with great ceremony in the Cathedral there.

I'm actually one of those who don't believe Richard murdered the Princes in the Tower or even ordered or requested someone else to do the deed.  The reason I don't believe it is that it proved politically ruinous for him, and Richard III was a lot of things but lacking in political savvy was not among them.  He would have known that killing those boys would be political suicide for him, and he wouldn't have done it for that reason, and he also, I think, would have had enough regard for the sons of his brother not to kill his own freaking nephews!

I read a novel that posited that Lady Margaret Beaufort, the mother of the eventual Henry VII, blackmailed someone into killing them to clear the path to the throne for her son, which is an iffy theory.  She was certainly ambitious for her son, but she might have been too religious/pious to condone and even order the murder of two children, even for the sake of her son's ascendancy.

In any case, I'd be inclined to look towards Richard III's political enemies for the parties responsible for the deaths of the Princes in the Tower.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Demercia on June 22, 2017, 01:24:05 am
I'm with you there, DR.  And there were sound political reasons for Richard to be anxious about having a minor on the throne.  Especially one whose legitimacy had been called into question.  Whatever the truth, Richard's character was written up after his death by his enemies. 
As a non serious footnote to Richard's reputation, it didn't go without notice in Leicester that the local soccer team, having always been mediocre, won the national soccer league at odds of 5000 to 1, just weeks after Richard was given the place of honour in the Cathedral.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: drakensis on June 22, 2017, 02:01:45 am
Those who've visited the Tower of London will have encountered a little display in the room where the two Princes were confined. There's one button you can press if you think Richard III killed them and one button if you blame Henry VII. The display shows how much each button was pressed - it's about equal.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Gilreth on June 22, 2017, 07:16:37 am
Laas will go to Brecon on Jolyon's death. Rory's duchy was Ratharkin so another albeit royal one. Interestingly most of the royal duchies seem to have no known subsidiary title although the four non royal ones (Clairbourne, Cassan, Corwyn & Laas) do. Ok in case of Cassan & Corwyn they have come from marriages of heiresses into line (or to be technically correct in Corwyn case marriage of Earl to heiress). Marley from memory is descended in male line from MacEwans (well Sighere) but Coris was nickname adopted as surname.

Yes as it stands the title of Duke of York will revert to crown on Andrew's death. Current Duke of Gloucester seems to be doing ok with heir & grandson. Interestingly, there is two extant English dukedoms that have passed through female line recently (and can do so). One is Marlborough where it passed through to Spencer family from Churchill's due to lack of sons of first Duke. Fife title has passed through female line but it was via granddaughters of Edward VII. The Norfolk title was recreated for female line descendent way back when but has not passed through female line. Of course most English titles cannot pass through female line although very different in with Scottish titles. The only English/British title that I am aware of with female line descent is Mountbatten of Burma for similar reasons to Marlborough......
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Laurna on June 22, 2017, 12:23:10 pm
Laas will go to Brecon on Jolyon's death. Rory's duchy was Ratharkin so another albeit royal one. Interestingly most of the royal duchies seem to have no known subsidiary title although the four non royal ones (Clairbourne, Cassan, Corwyn & Laas) do.

Thank you Gilreth for the correction.  I completely forgot about Ratharkin and messed up Laas. I will make a corrections  to my list above.
And isn't history fascinating? In both the real world and in fiction. ;D
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: LauraS on June 22, 2017, 02:41:53 pm
Laas will go to Brecon on Jolyon's death. Rory's duchy was Ratharkin so another albeit royal one. Interestingly most of the royal duchies seem to have no known subsidiary title although the four non royal ones (Clairbourne, Cassan, Corwyn & Laas) do. Ok in case of Cassan & Corwyn they have come from marriages of heiresses into line (or to be technically correct in Corwyn case marriage of Earl to heiress). Marley from memory is descended in male line from MacEwans (well Sighere) but Coris was nickname adopted as surname.

Yes as it stands the title of Duke of York will revert to crown on Andrew's death. Current Duke of Gloucester seems to be doing ok with heir & grandson. Interestingly, there is two extant English dukedoms that have passed through female line recently (and can do so). One is Marlborough where it passed through to Spencer family from Churchill's due to lack of sons of first Duke. Fife title has passed through female line but it was via granddaughters of Edward VII. The Norfolk title was recreated for female line descendent way back when but has not passed through female line. Of course most English titles cannot pass through female line although very different in with Scottish titles. The only English/British title that I am aware of with female line descent is Mountbatten of Burma for similar reasons to Marlborough......
   The Mountbatten title's succession is relatively unique in the peerage of the UK:  the first Earl's two daughters were in the succession, but after them, only their male heirs are.  So, on the death of Patricia, 2nd Countess last week, her eldest son Norton will become the 3rd Earl with the succession now solely through his male line and that of his brothers. If these lines fail, the male line from the younger daughter, Pamela Hicks, will inherit.  Failing that, the title goes extinct even if there are female-line descendants.  The Fife title is somewhat the same:  only the  the first Duke's daughters and their male-line heirs were/are eligible. The current Duke is the grandson of the younger daughter, HH Princess Alexandra of Fife, who married the Earl of Southesk. The succession is now the standard male-line primogeniture - the current Duke has three sons and the line ends with them.
Title: Re: Generosity: Epilogue
Post by: Gilreth on June 26, 2017, 03:45:29 pm
And from memory the Marlborough title is the same - female line descent in first generation and then normal male-line. Scotland has a completely different set of rules and there are a number of titles there that have passed through females - Countess of Sutherland and Countess of Mar spring to mind immediately. Looking up the Earldom of Mar (first creation - there are two due to complicated Scottish politics) it seems the next two holders will also be female :)

It is interesting to note in Gwynedd that some titles can pass through the female line whereas others cannot.... Both Corwyn & Cassan have of course passed through female line although the ladies in question were never Duchesses suo jure. Duncan's grandfather was Duke of Cassan on birth and we all know the story of Corwyn :D