The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

Off Topic => Fan Projects => Topic started by: revanne on April 11, 2014, 03:37:19 pm

Title: Help
Post by: revanne on April 11, 2014, 03:37:19 pm
I haven't written anything at all other than essays and sermons ( except articles for the Parish magazine which don't quite count as fiction) since school days and I feel very unsure of even trying given the standard on this board. But you are all so nice - so some help please.

Firstly how do I get Joram out of my head - you'd have thought that a Priest would know better than to harass a fellow member of the clergy in the run up to Easter, but will the man stop mithering me? No!!!

What I want ( he wants me??) to explore is what happens from the deryni point of view between Javan's murder and TBP ( BTW why does no-one ever point out to Rhys Michael that it was his fault.. Sorry just needed to get that out). I think I understand that it is ok to use a canonical character ( courtesy of Katherine's generosity) providing you stay within appropriate bounds of characterisation - so Joram would not engage in any form of sexual inpropriety, neither can I see him denying his priesthood. I can feel a lot of unexpressed angst though and am fascinated from a spiritual point of view as to how he copes with all that has happened?

Also how far is it ok to make links that are not there in the book - e.g. supposing that the Servants of St. Camber (QFSC) are not just a lucky survival but a planned underground community.
I just wanted to check out the limits before I even think of putting pen to paper ; if I ever do -and it will take forever - I will arrange for a whope shipment of red pens for Evie
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Shiral on April 11, 2014, 03:54:16 pm
Maybe Joram doesn't realize it's almost Easter in 2014?  ;)

 I know how you feel about Rhysem--I often wanted to smack him during KJY. Then I softened in Bastard Prince, because he FINALLY figured out Regents=BAD. He paid a heck of a price for his obtuseness, And he was the one who loosened their choke-hold on the Haldane dynasty.

I've never been a fan of slash fic, and I'm pretty sure Joram would disapprove, too.  Easy enough  to write good fanfic without it. And it would definitely be more true to KK's characters.

Melissa
Title: Re: Help
Post by: revanne on April 11, 2014, 04:41:17 pm
Totally agree about slash fic, characters have to be true to themselves otherwise they are not the characters as written. Which ties in with another recent thread about television adaptations and the dangers of sensationalising KK's stories.

Sort of agree about Rhysem I just hate what happens to Javan


Title: Re: Help
Post by: Jerusha on April 11, 2014, 04:47:49 pm
I would LOVE to read a Joram fanfic - so please, write on!

You can be true to KK's characters and the world of the Eleven Kingdoms, but still explore interesting plot lines and introduce new twists and turns.  That's what makes playing in KK's sandbox fun.  That and knowing you have the support of this incredible forum.

I've never sent Evie a bunch of red pens, but I've sent her lots of extra commas!   ;)
Title: Re: Help
Post by: DesertRose on April 11, 2014, 05:09:33 pm
Here are the rules for writing fanfiction if you want to post it here.  http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,442.0.html

Pretty simple, really.  I don't think KK minds you drawing connections that aren't in canon as long as you don't go too far afield.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Evie on April 11, 2014, 06:20:02 pm
Here are the rules for writing fanfiction if you want to post it here.  http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,442.0.html

Pretty simple, really.  I don't think KK minds you drawing connections that aren't in canon as long as you don't go too far afield.

I think the rules in the link above are fairly self explanatory, but what I also found helpful is to consider the level of violence and sexuality in KK's books, and then use that as a guideline for my own boundaries.  In US movie terms, that put most of my stories anywhere between what would be a PG-13 to possibly a very mild R rating (for the level of still mostly implied violence in "Possessed"); translate into your country's terms as needed. 

And yes, do keep the characters' actions believably in character consistent to how they acted in the books, although of course the situations you put them in may vary quite a bit from anything KK put them into.  Joram wouldn't show up at a Camberian Council meeting dressed in drag and doing the hula.  For that matter, even if he's in a Doctor Who crossover story (to pick a wildly non-KK-universe option just for kicks and grins), he should still remain true to his character.  He might wear a black shirt with a clerical collar, or even just a regular T-shirt and jeans, in a Deryni time travel story that has him somehow ending up in modern-day Gwynedd, for instance.  That wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine.  If, however, he's cruising the London night scene crashing parties dressed like Lady Gaga....no, I don't think so.  Readers' disbelief suspended by the neck until quite dead.    :D  I wrote one story in which I deliberately set out to break every rule in that link above.  Just one, just for kicks and grins, and to give DesertRose heart failure, because I'm a sassy puppy that way.  And no, it's never seen the light of day on this forum (or anywhere else besides private email) and it never will, because I don't want KK to kill me!   ;D

I'd love to see your story, and I promise not to eviscerate it with my pens, red or otherwise.  I'm a teacher at heart, not a torturer.   :)  Just be careful, because this quote...

Quote
I haven't written anything at all ...since school days and I feel very unsure of even trying given the standard on this board....

...reminds me very much of Annie when she started posting her first stories here in fear and trembling, and now she's working on Changers of Chandris Book 3.  Be careful what roads you start down; you never know where they might lead you!   ;D
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Shiral on April 12, 2014, 02:01:24 am
I'm all for experimentation in fan fic. I've even read some slash fic.  When it's written with some skill and when enough attention is paid to the storyline so that it's half-way believable that the romantic pair would in fact meet and have romantic feelings for one another and the time and sufficient motive to have a tryst, I don't mind it. What makes me roll my eyes about slash fic is if  the entire story turns into a complete logic-tormenting and unbelievable saga to force very unlikely and completely incompatible people out of character and "into one another's arms"  for no other reason than the fan author wanted to make it happen. 

    I'm always intrigued by the relationship of Jebediah and Alister Cullen. It suggests to me that the two could have been at least platonic lovers. There's a built in risk because if discovered, it would cause a huge scandal in the Order--the Michaelines ran a well-disciplined house.  Either Jebediah or Alister or both of them could have been thrown out of the Order in disgrace. To say nothing of the nature of their religious vows and genuine piety on both their parts. All of which could have been enough to keep their friendship on the entirely blameless level of two brother knights in a fighting Order.    I also like it that KK never really  confirms or denies the nature of their relationship, so it's possible to think  "Yes they were". And also "No, they weren't." A slash fic portraying the two of them would actually make a bit of sense, because they're already a sympathetic and intriguing pair often thrown together, but forbidden a more romantic form of attachment because of the times their non-permissive society, and the celibate life they've both chosen.

However...that's not a story I'd plan to write.

Melissa
Title: Re: Help
Post by: AnnieUK on April 12, 2014, 03:49:22 am
Revanne, I felt physically sick the first time I posted on here. Honestly, I was just ridiculously scared.

But beware. It is as addictive as crack. And honestly, if I'd known *how* addictive, I don't know if I'd ever have written that first short story!

If you want to bash ideas around, Evie, Alkari, and I used to meet in chat quite frequently to talk plots. I'm sure Evie and I could do the same with you, if you want.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: revanne on April 12, 2014, 11:46:50 am
"even if he's in a Doctor Who crossover story"

now that's a thought. Don't know how much Dr. Who you get your side of the water but the Dr Who before last David Tennant was quite repressed angstie which is how I see Joram - wrong air colour though. He wore black a lot as well, though I have to confess not a clerical collar. I saw David Tennant earlier this year in Richard II - quite wonderful after he has fallen from power - now I can't get that out of my head either. So if the story about how Joram copes with the destruction of all that he has worked for has overtones of Doctor Who, it's not my fault.

Have a couple of weeks holiday coming up early May, so if I'm feeling really brave might try pen to paper then.

Thank you all for helpful advice

Have a blessed Easter
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Evie on April 12, 2014, 12:55:18 pm

 I'm always intrigued by the relationship of Jebediah and Alister Cullen. It suggests to me that the two could have been at least platonic lovers. There's a built in risk because if discovered, it would cause a huge scandal in the Order--the Michaelines ran a well-disciplined house.  Either Jebediah or Alister or both of them could have been thrown out of the Order in disgrace. To say nothing of the nature of their religious vows and genuine piety on both their parts. All of which could have been enough to keep their friendship on the entirely blameless level of two brother knights in a fighting Order.    I also like it that KK never really  confirms or denies the nature of their relationship, so it's possible to think  "Yes they were". And also "No, they weren't." A slash fic portraying the two of them would actually make a bit of sense, because they're already a sympathetic and intriguing pair often thrown together, but forbidden a more romantic form of attachment because of the times their non-permissive society, and the celibate life they've both chosen.

There is an author on Fanfiction.net who has written a couple of stories in which the Arilan/Cardiel bond is implied to be stronger than best friends, yet due to their religious vocations and commitment to their vows it hasn't crossed over to anything overtly physical.  (Or if it has, that isn't actually portrayed in the stories; they're deliberately ambiguous enough to let the reader decide if they've ever acted on those feelings or not, though given how both are portrayed in canon, my personal tendency is to not read things going that far between them, especially in bonfire-happy Gwynedd!) I think they were posted before there was a KK section of the site, so you have to search for the characters by name to find them.  One of the stories deals with Arilan turning to Cardiel for comfort after Kelson's apparent death, and the other deals with Cardiel's reaction to the rapes and pillaging at the convent in Meara. In both stories, the slash element is subdued enough that the stories can be read as being from the point of view of a grieving man wishing for the comfort and good counsel of his closest confidant and nothing more than that, though the love between the two men is portrayed in such a way that it's clear that, whatever bond they share, it goes well beyond the average friendship.  The stories work because they are deliberately ambiguous. It's left to the reader to decide if they're just exceptionally close friends or have crossed over to something more.  I tend to read then in canon as just very close friends myself, but these two stories are so sensitively written, and capture the heart of these men so well (especially Arilan's grief over Kelson), that I consider them favorites even though slash is normally not my cup of tea at all.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Evie on April 12, 2014, 01:03:49 pm
revanne, we're up to the twelfth Doctor here, my daughter has a David Tennant poster on her bedroom door, and Tardis keychains and other Doctor Who knickknacks scattered all over the place. I think you could safely say we've mostly caught up, though I think you get to see new episodes before we get them here on BBC America or Netflix.

I've even got little Tardis earrings.   ;D
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Laurna on April 12, 2014, 01:11:38 pm
I would love to read a Joram story, Revanne. Though I fear it would be a sad one after the devastation of KJY. The idea that he helped start the Servant of Saint Camber is a sound one. It is possible that in 200 years they lost their beginning charters and only kept their ideals; Lendour is known to be a harsh land. I always felt that was the Servant's origins from the first rooms in which Dhugal breaks into with the real shiral crystal nets over the tomes.
Also I am an avid Dr Who fan and I love David Tennant. I don't know if I would cast him as Joram(I have not seen Richard II) but definitely helping Joram in his time of greatest need after KJY would be his thing. Perhaps a dream like visit to King Kelson's time to prove that all his troubles have purpose. Though after the trip the Tartis would make Joram think it was all a dream.
Have a blessed Easter and then enjoy the world of writing.
Like Annie said, it is an addiction. A good one.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: derynifanatic64 on April 12, 2014, 07:15:04 pm
I've been a fan of Doctor Who since 1980 when it first aired in the US.   I just bought "The Day of the Doctor" with Matt Smith, David Tennant, and John Hurt today.  I would love to take a trip in the Tardis.  I have books, VHS tapes, and DVD's.  Doctor Who was a question on Jeopardy last night.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Aerlys on April 12, 2014, 08:11:12 pm
I hate it when threads get away from me. (Oh well, got a lot of housework done.)

Please write a Joram fanific, though I won't promise to read it until my own is done, LOL! Joram really is one of my favorite characters, and he reminds me of priests I have known and admired. Tavis captures my imagination, as well, though I'm far from ready to write much with him...yet.

My own Camber-era fanfic started out many years ago as a private writing exercise for my own enjoyment. Since it was non-canonical (alternate timeline), I revisited it after coming to the boards, and began revisions. Annie is right -- talk about addictive! Now it barely resembles the original storyline, and there's a whole lot that needs to happen before I even get to Joram. I found myself researching everything from Vikings, to the Faroe Islands, to the architecture of round churches, to Medieval ships. Before I knew it, my characters started taking over; some are even demanding that I tackle their backstory before finishing what is supposed to be my main story.

Unfortunately, I have no one near me I can toss ideas around with. And, quite frankly, I'm such a big chicken (and a perfectionist) that I'm not even sure I could share my rough drafts without tossing my cookies.

**Sigh** Done venting now.

So long as you're not as neurotic as I am, you should be just fine.  ;D

Meh, duty calls.  I'll add my own two cents about he relationship of Jebediah and Alister Cullen when I have more time...

.

Title: Re: Help
Post by: AnnieUK on April 13, 2014, 04:23:16 am
Aerlys, same goes for you. I love plotting (one reason mine always end up so darn complicated!), so I'm always ready to toss ideas about.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Aerlys on April 13, 2014, 08:36:05 pm
Thanks, Annie. If I can ever squeeze in chat time during the week.

(Brush up on your Norse history, in the meantime.)
Title: Re: Help
Post by: revanne on April 14, 2014, 06:43:34 am
Er...Aerlys I may just wait until you have posted :D Goodness how do you find the time to research with your fulltime job as Mum to seven.
Sounds as though you are several years ahead of me - but I'll be brave despite being quite seriously neurotic!! Not that I've actually written anything yet ..

Re Jebediah and Alister, I really can't see Alister going outside the rules on sexual activity given how reluctant he is to do anything "grey" in the area of deryni activity or even to breach his own self imposed standards of disciplined action. Bells were ringing for me with a real life religious called Aelred of Rievaulx from the 12th century. Having looked him up on Wikipedia I wonder whether he was in KK's mind. I think maybe other eras were more comfortable with the idea that intense friendship was not necessarily sexual in a physical way. Partly because of the dangers of illicit sex but also maybe a different understanding of the possibilities of friendship, the sort of thing Evie beautiful explores between Helena and Duncan but same sex.

Incidentially living up on a little peninsula sticking out into the Irish sea (called the Wirral it's sometimes missed off maps of the UK and it's quite disconcerting to see where you live cease to exist) there is evidence of quite a lot of Viking/Norse history around here. Various place names and even a Viking boat found in a pub car park.

I would love to make chat sometime but by midnight on Sunday I am shattered and have a team meeting at 8.30 on Monday morning. Maybe when Joram lets me know a bit more clearly what's on his mind...
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Evie on April 14, 2014, 09:49:02 am
Er...Aerlys I may just wait until you have posted :D Goodness how do you find the time to research with your fulltime job as Mum to seven.
Sounds as though you are several years ahead of me - but I'll be brave despite being quite seriously neurotic!! Not that I've actually written anything yet ..

Nooo, don't wait for Aerlys to post hers first, or we'll never see either story!   ;D

Quote
Re Jebediah and Alister, I really can't see Alister going outside the rules on sexual activity given how reluctant he is to do anything "grey" in the area of deryni activity or even to breach his own self imposed standards of disciplined action. Bells were ringing for me with a real life religious called Aelred of Rievaulx from the 12th century. Having looked him up on Wikipedia I wonder whether he was in KK's mind. I think maybe other eras were more comfortable with the idea that intense friendship was not necessarily sexual in a physical way. Partly because of the dangers of illicit sex but also maybe a different understanding of the possibilities of friendship, the sort of thing Evie beautiful explores between Helena and Duncan but same sex.

I think that's spot on, and even in this century there are some cultures that are more comfortable with relational intimacy in a non-sexual sense than in the US and UK.  Western culture and our entertainment media too often fosters the idea that if you love someone, the only possible way to express that is to have sex with them.  Not to mention there are also cultures in which a kisses and/or hugs are standard forms of greeting even between people with no romantic or sexual interest in each other, and which are just more physical overall in terms of showing affection, so sexual attraction or intent can't necessarily be read into their body language, at least not by someone unfamiliar to that culture's particular non-verbal cues.  Hand-holding between men, for instance, can't be assumed to be a sign of same-sex attraction in the Arab world, since there aren't the same (often unspoken) cultural taboos against open displays of affection between men in that part of the world as there are here in the US, where most straight men I know wouldn't be caught dead holding hands, but they might engage in back-slapping or a brief "man-hug." I read somewhere recently that a visitor to an Elizabethan English home would kiss the lady of the house on the cheek as a matter of courtesy, which to me sounds more current Latin American custom than current English custom.  And I've also read that in the Middle Ages, the Biblical injunction to "greet one another with a holy kiss" was taken quite literally, and may even have been a lips-to-lips kiss.  If that was indeed the case, then our Deryni clergy may well have kissed quite a few men and women in their day, though always in what would culturally be a chaste and acceptable way for their era.  (Chaste and culturally acceptable, guys, not a sixty-second lip lock!  Don't go hog wild in your plastic storage containers, my little Deryni clergy! ;D )

Quote
Incidentially living up on a little peninsula sticking out into the Irish sea (called the Wirral it's sometimes missed off maps of the UK and it's quite disconcerting to see where you live cease to exist) there is evidence of quite a lot of Viking/Norse history around here. Various place names and even a Viking boat found in a pub car park.

If your peninsula regularly ceases to exist, maybe you live in Brigadoon.  Do customs and clothing styles outside your area seem to leap forward by about 200 years every time you venture out of your immediate neighborhood?   ;)

Quote
I would love to make chat sometime but by midnight on Sunday I am shattered and have a team meeting at 8.30 on Monday morning. Maybe when Joram lets me know a bit more clearly what's on his mind...

We are also sometimes to be found in the chatroom on weekday evenings/nights (your time) or afternoons (US time), so if you know you will be available to chat some evening, just send a PM or put a notice in the shoutbox at the top of the man page saying that you plan to pop into the chatroom and wait for a bit to see if anyone else shows up.   A PM works well for me, since I've got mine set to send my messages to my email Inbox, which I check several times a day.  There are a few people who tend to lurk in there but are often away from the computer at the moment, so if you enter and say something and no one replies, don't worry.  They're not deliberately ignoring you, they're simply not there at the time.  But just stay there a bit, perhaps do a bit of writing at the same time...hint, hint!...and someone may turn up in a few minutes.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Aerlys on April 14, 2014, 12:59:55 pm
"Eros will have naked bodies. Friendship naked personalities."  C.S. Lewis

My own $0.02:

Honestly, this discussion about Jeb and Alister reminds me of the same speculations people have about Frodo and Sam in LOTR, though Tolkien, as a devout Catholic, never intended their relationship to be sexual. We live in a world so saturated with sex and shallowness that this creates the tendency to interpret these literary relationships according to our modern mindset.

Maybe it's my traditional Catholic upbringing, but I never saw Jeb and Alistair's friendship as anything other than philae, or brotherly love, which C.S. Lewis described as "the happiest and most fully human of all loves; the crown of life and the school of virtue.  Truly, this sort of love is much more elevated  and freer than eros, not being burdened by the physical, and appealing to the higher, spiritual side of our nature. In battle, this philetic love can even be raised to the level of agape, where one may be wiling to risk his life for his friend. Such, I think, is the basis for Jebediah and Alister's relationship.

Sadly, today's culture lacks the moral foundation to really understand it. How many people have even learned about "The Four Loves" as expounded by Plato and explored by C.S. Lewis?

BTW, here's a couple of articles somewhat related to this that some of you might enjoy:

http://tolkien.umwblogs.org/2013/02/12/tolkien-and-ordered-friendship/ (http://tolkien.umwblogs.org/2013/02/12/tolkien-and-ordered-friendship/)
http://www.councilofelrond.com/content/tolkien-friendship-and-the-four-loves-2/ (http://www.councilofelrond.com/content/tolkien-friendship-and-the-four-loves-2/)

So, yes, I wholeheartedly agree with both Revanne and Evie. on this matter, especially the point regarding Allister's reluctance to venture into "gray" areas.
 

Nooo, don't wait for Aerlys to post hers first, or we'll never see either story!   ;D

LOL. That's just what I was going to say! Definitely, DEFINITELY do not wait for me! I simply don't have the freedom to write when I want to. I also tend to get sidetracked by other pursuits that catch my eye, whether it's Lenten devotions, revisiting favorite essays on Tolkien and  C.S. Lewis (see above), the collection of 34 works by Chesterton that I found for under two dollars, or reading up on my son's autism spectrum disorder.  Not to mention housework, ferrying kids around, and spending way too much time reading and composing posts on this forum.  ;D

So, be brave and write on, Revanne (drat, almost typed DD's name again). We will all devour it when it's posted. There really isn't enough Camber-era fanfic on the boards, IMHO.

Title: Re: Help
Post by: Evie on April 14, 2014, 03:31:55 pm
I love that C. S. Lewis quote! I've not heard that one before, but oh so true!  Or on a similar note, I like something my son quoted on his Facebook page once.  It went something like "A boy wants to see a beautiful woman without her clothes on.  A man wants to see her without makeup."  That's shorthand, of course, for the deeper idea that as one matures from an hormonal adolescent view of relationships to a more disciplined adult view, that growth of character should lead to desiring to know a person one is attracted to as they truly are, and not just focus on what they can do to make you feel good.  But a lot of "boys" never grow up to be "men."  (And the same holds true for girls/women.)  And is that really surprising, given how many messages we receive from today's media that happiness is only to be found if one is getting it on with someone as often as possible, and if you're not having sex, looking for sex, or pining for sex, you're either a loser or something's wrong with you?  It's certainly not that people didn't have sex drives before the era of movies and television.  They just weren't in perpetual overdrive on the subject!   ;D

I think modern society both overemphasizes sex and devalues emotional intimacy, or at least tries to conflate them by insisting they're one and the same, when really they're not.  Sex is one way to express love, but it isn't love.  One can express sexual urges in the total absence of love.  One can also love with every fiber of one's being without having sex, or even having the desire to express that love sexually.  But Western culture seems to have forgotten that latter point.  And to confuse matters, I think there's a modern tendency to confuse acquaintance with true friendship.  Friendship in the deepest sense is about more than just sharing drinks and a few laughs now and then, or otherwise having a good time together (though of course hopefully it includes that).  And it's certainly not about how many names you can collect on a Facebook list or your Google+ circles.

Now granted, the human sex drive being the strong force that it is, and given people's tendency to take the path of least resistance and be at least somewhat self-centered rather than selfless and other-centered, emotional intimacy can become a lot more complicated when two people who are biologically pre-disposed to be physically attracted to each other attempt to form a deep friendship.  It is certainly possible to do this; the waters are just trickier to navigate.  Personally speaking, there are four people currently in my life with whom I share that deep level of friendship that Lewis and Tolkien could have related to.  I'm married to one of them, one is a woman I've known for nearly twenty years, one was my best friend from high school, and the other is a man I've known since before my daughter was born, so that's nearly 17 years.  These are people I can share my deepest struggles and fears with, and also my greatest joys, and if I'm full of crap I know I can count on them to call me on it.  But for these friendships to work, there are certain boundaries that have to stay in place, especially in my male friendships, to reduce the danger of a phileo relationship starting to slip toward an inappropriate level of eros.  Certain of my struggles are more appropriate to share and work through with my husband or another woman rather than with a male friend.  I won't allow myself to have a close friendship with a man who doesn't respect and support my marriage or, worse, tries to lure me out of it.   But deep friendship, like marriage, requires nurturing.  And I think too few people nowadays have developed the self-discipline needed for the sustained effort that a long-term relationship requires.  Therefore, it's easier to devolve to the formula of "sex = love and love = sex," and when the giddy feelings of infatuation/surface-level friendship come to an end, and/or the sexual desire ebbs, then the relationship fades because there was no solid foundation beneath all those intense feelings that were roiling on the surface and obscuring the lack of substance beneath.

So yes, I see the Jebediah/Alister relationship (as well as Alaric/Duncan, Kelson/Dhugal, and Arilan/Cardiel) to be primarily of the phileo sort, growing steadier into agape as their relationships continue to mature over their lifetimes. I also see Duncan's relationship with Helena the same way, for the most part, though in that case since they are navigating those more treacherous waters of trying to balance their intellectual attraction to each other with the biological impetus of physical attraction, there are some hints of eros as well, though hopefully maintained on the healthier end of the spectrum.  Self-discipline and mutual respect helps keep that aspect of their attraction in bounds so that it doesn't slide over into inappropriate action, though it's a delicate balancing act at times.  Attraction is a normal, healthy human response, and in strict moderation it adds zest to a relationship.  When allowed too free a rein, though, it can grow into something unhealthy for the context of the relationship, becoming lust.  Relationships aren't always easy, and a vowed celibate has to walk a more slender tightrope than most, but by that definition my son once posted in his Facebook status, Duncan is a man, not a boy.   :)

I actually have a story started that explores some of these themes, if I can ever get around to finishing it....  *sigh*
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Aerlys on April 15, 2014, 12:02:39 am
Beautifully put, Evie...as always. Just what I wanted to say, had I not been distracted by a rather charming young man who was gazing at me adoringly with his twinkling blue eyes, begging me to join him in his bedroom to play mega blocks and build a castle for Thomas the Train.  :D

I'm such a pushover for 3 ft. tall redheads!

Title: Re: Help
Post by: revanne on April 15, 2014, 06:03:13 am
So happy to have found a forum where people write what I am thinking and quote CS Lewis and Tolkein and give links to Gregorian Chant (smiles blissfully).
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Evie on April 15, 2014, 09:22:36 am
Beautifully put, Evie...as always. Just what I wanted to say, had I not been distracted by a rather charming young man who was gazing at me adoringly with his twinkling blue eyes, begging me to join him in his bedroom to play mega blocks and build a castle for Thomas the Train.  :D

I'm such a pushover for 3 ft. tall redheads!

I would be too, if they have mega blocks and want to build castles!   :D

So happy to have found a forum where people write what I am thinking and quote CS Lewis and Tolkein and give links to Gregorian Chant (smiles blissfully).

One thing I like about this forum is that even though there is a fairly wide variety of worldviews here, covering the whole spectrum from traditionalist Christian, liberal Christian, neopagan, agnostic, atheist, and possibly other religions/philosophies, the maturity level here is such that I've never seen a discussion turn into an argument.  Disagreement at times, sure, and occasionally even strong ones; that's to be expected in a group this diverse.  But I think any group of people drawn to the types of stories that KK writes is bound to have some unity of thought in what appeals to their psyches as readers, even though the particular elements that draw them into her story world may differ.  For me, the respectful treatment of faith in the Deryni novels was a huge draw.  I don't expect every person in every story who professes a belief in some sort of faith to automatically be a good guy, but on the other hand it's refreshing to find stories in which they're not automatically assumed to be the villain either, and in KK's story world--like in real life--there are both good guys and bad guys in the Church.  For that matter, even in "enemy" Torenth, there are good guys and bad guys.  And even the good guys do the occasional wrong thing.  (Do any of the bad guys ever do the occasional indisputably right thing?  I can't remember at the moment, although I think they mostly do what they honestly believe to be the right things, even though readers rooting for the Deryni would disagree wholeheartedly.)  For me, that's also a draw.  Even in a battle between Light and Darkness, most things and people in the real world are not absolutely good or absolutely evil, so I appreciate that it's not so starkly delineated in the Deryni universe either.  And the fact that it's set in a fictional Middle Ages that's close enough to the real thing to be relatable, yet different enough to keep my curiosity piqued, certainly helps captivate my interest as well.

Now for other readers, of course, the treatment of faith in the novels may make little to no difference for them.  For them, the magic system is the primary draw, or the medieval history aspects, or the coming of age of a boy king, or Sexy Alaric in his dark riding leathers.  :D   (I'll admit that last draw is pretty darn attractive, even though my heart lies elsewhere....  ;-)  ) 
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Laurna on April 15, 2014, 12:34:57 pm
I have to say my main draw, even back when I first read Deryni at the age of 16, was the healing abilities of the tall, handsome, god-like, golden haired, black-clad loyal knight of the realm. Who by the way could make a whip from a mean guard turn on its owner in the opening scene. I was hooked. Then came Rhys, healer and nice man trying to make a world better for all, not just the rich and powerful. I found the stories more about the abuse of power both in the secular and religious aspects, with men and women who were in positions make a difference attempting to over come the abusers and build a society that everyone could live in. Unfortunately it is a never ending battle, you get rid of one abuser and another steps in.

I don't know if it was the healing aspects of this story that influenced my career choice or if it just enhanced it. I wanted to be a veterinarian. When that was more schooling than I could survive, I found Ultrasound. Not quite healing, but it feels like a type of scientific magic in an attempt to discover what ails the patient. I love the quest to uncover the problem so others can do the healing.

I think people are drawn to KK's stories because they are good people and want a better world, no mater what aspect they chose to work in. That is why this is a mature forum and people here are good to each other. I have been here a year and a half and I have found wonderful people here that I call friends.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Aerlys on April 15, 2014, 02:46:16 pm
  For me, the respectful treatment of faith in the Deryni novels was a huge draw.  I don't expect every person in every story who professes a belief in some sort of faith to automatically be a good guy, but on the other hand it's refreshing to find stories in which they're not automatically assumed to be the villain either, and in KK's story world--like in real life--there are both good guys and bad guys in the Church.  For that matter, even in "enemy" Torenth, there are good guys and bad guys.  And even the good guys do the occasional wrong thing. 

I, too, have always appreciated KK's respectful treatment of faith. (I get so sick of faith-bashing.) If someone is a bad guy, be they priest or prince or layman, it's because of their behavior, not because of their faith. It's not all black and white, and that's what adds dimension and realism to her writing.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: revanne on April 16, 2014, 06:21:54 am
I first read the Deryni novels thirty years ago while staying for a week in a friend's house and she, knowing my religious leanings, introduced me to them and tolerantly understood while I disappeared behind the pages of the books. What stayed in my mind was the recognition they give to faith, not in itself weird nor sinister nor, at the other extreme, saccharine sweet.

A generation on and thanks to Amazon I have remade their aquaintance and discovered that Katherine has kindly written more books in the meantime. What draws me in now: -

Still of course the recognition given to faith and finding the description of faith realistic. I also have fellow feeling with Duncan, although at least no one threatens to burn women priests.

As someone with a background in history who is liable to become embarassingly vocal at historical bloopers in films (my children would not come to see the Da Vinci Code with me, forget the theology it was the history that upset me!!) I love the fact that KK's characters live in the world in which they are set, and are not just modern visitors in fancy dress. So Richenda has to bear with Alaric's refusal to deal with the situation in Coroth and it is resolved by her bearing him a son not by her single handedly defending the castle from Torenthi attack, preferable though that scenario might be to modern sensibilities.

The books work because they are true myths and like all true myths they help us to deal with the world around us. I hate JKV - how can she do that to him and to us  :'( but such things happen and the characters then have to learn to deal or fail to deal with harsh reality. I respond to that as I respond to Gandalf telling Frodo "all we have to do is decide what to do with the time that we are given" (quote from memory).

For the books are about the virtues...faith, love, hope and maybe it is that which gives this forum its respectfulness.

They are also great stories and lets face it men do look gorgeous in medieval costume...

Alaric - sorry too much like hard work, definitely to be gazed at from afar.
Duncan, gorgeous but off limits and I have developed an allergy to bishops
Rhys now, handsome, clever, compassionate, principled. Don't fancy fighting Evaine for him though. A girl can dream....
Title: Re: Help
Post by: revanne on April 16, 2014, 06:37:59 am
or indeed KJY  :-\
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Evie on April 16, 2014, 10:01:25 am
I first read the Deryni novels thirty years ago while staying for a week in a friend's house and she, knowing my religious leanings, introduced me to them and tolerantly understood while I disappeared behind the pages of the books.

LOL! That sounds familiar!  A friend lent me the two Kelson trilogies and the first three Camber books when I was in grad school but on Christmas break.  I devoured them in about a week and a half, and avidly collected the others as they came out, though after she moved on to the Adept series I got tired of waiting for new Deryni books and eventually gave up looking for them.  (I've read the first few Adept books, but since it's the history and characters of the Deryni series that draw me in far more than the magic, I never got that much into the other series.)

Then one day, I'm wandering though a SF convention and there's this huge poster announcing the release of KKB.  I nearly attacked it.  Imagine Garfield the Cat launching himself onto a pan of lasagna and you've got the general idea.   ;D

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As someone with a background in history who is liable to become embarassingly vocal at historical bloopers in films (my children would not come to see the Da Vinci Code with me, forget the theology it was the history that upset me!!)

One of my friends is the daughter of a man who taught archeology at Wheaton College for years.  She grew up traveling from dig to dig in Israel, Greece, Egypt, and various other parts of the world.  She loves "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and "The Mummy," but her enjoyment of those films is as much due to the unintentional humor of the archaeological and historical bloopers as it is to the stories themselves.

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I love the fact that KK's characters live in the world in which they are set, and are not just modern visitors in fancy dress. So Richenda has to bear with Alaric's refusal to deal with the situation in Coroth and it is resolved by her bearing him a son not by her single handedly defending the castle from Torenthi attack, preferable though that scenario might be to modern sensibilities.

True. Though I suspect that Richenda and the other ladies of Gwynedd are meant to be modeled after Norman ladies, not Celtic or Scandinavian ones, else the Torenthi attackers might have had a Gwenllian ferch Gruffydd to cope with.  Though considering how that castle defense turned out for poor Gwenllian, that's perhaps for the best in Richenda's case.  Let's hope Richenda's beheading never needs to serve as a catalyst for a Corwyn uprising against Torenth!  Given the other heartbreaking events in KK's books, maybe I should just strike that last sentence out altogether so she won't get any more bright ideas.....  ;)

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The books work because they are true myths and like all true myths they help us to deal with the world around us. I hate JKV - how can she do that to him and to us  :'( but such things happen and the characters then have to learn to deal or fail to deal with harsh reality. I respond to that as I respond to Gandalf telling Frodo "all we have to do is decide what to do with the time that we are given" (quote from memory).

Yes. Which is why senseless deaths like Rhys slipping and getting a mortal head injury at the worst possible time sometimes occur in the books, leading to many tears and loss of sleep for the reader at 3:00 am on a workday....    But I've forgiven KK for that, really I have.  Really.  ;D

Quote
For the books are about the virtues...faith, love, hope and maybe it is that which gives this forum its respectfulness.

They are also great stories and lets face it men do look gorgeous in medieval costume...

Alaric - sorry too much like hard work, definitely to be gazed at from afar.
Duncan, gorgeous but off limits and I have developed an allergy to bishops
Rhys now, handsome, clever, compassionate, principled. Don't fancy fighting Evaine for him though. A girl can dream....

ROFL!!!

Yes to all of those, aside from the bishop allergy, since I haven't had sufficient exposure to real life bishops to develop one.   ;)  Unfortunately KK persists in sticking most of the Deryni men I find fascinating into those dad-blasted cassocks, so what's a poor woman to do?  Well, there's Kelson and Dhugal, who both have their charms, but they're more my son's age, and I'm not into cradle-robbing either.  *pout!*
Title: Re: Help
Post by: Laurna on April 16, 2014, 11:24:06 am
Quote
Yes. Which is why senseless deaths like Rhys slipping and getting a mortal head injury at the worst possible time sometimes occur in the books, leading to many tears and loss of sleep for the reader at 3:00 am on a workday....    But I've forgiven KK for that, really I have.  Really.  ;D

Wait! I'm supposed to be generous enough to forgive KK for this horrid event.  UMMM!  NO! Never! Some things are just not forgivable.  I stopped reading Deryni for 10 years because of this. I had fallen in love with Rhys, And I will never read that scene again. :'( To this day, I deny its existence.

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Let's hope Richenda's beheading never needs to serve as a catalyst for a Corwyn uprising against Torenth!  Given the other heartbreaking events in KK's books, maybe I should just strike that last sentence out altogether so she won't get any more bright ideas...

Dear woman, Your Killing Me! >:(