(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/gallery/18693_08_09_16_3_19_00.jpeg)
Coroth Castle: home of the Dukes of Corwyn. A marvel of a medieval Castle built on a plateau on an ancient site of pre-byzantyun magic. Five towers in a perfect pentagon have been built up over five single granite slab foundations, inscribed with strange runes of the old tongue, which no one can decipher.
It is believed that the five towers represent the five Protocols of Orin. Each is attributed to a color: Green, Gold, Blue, Vermilion, and Black. In Alaric Morgan's time only the Green Tower is in use. The others have been locked up.
From the map of the Eleven Kingdoms image of Coroth, I extrapolate that the castle main gates face south toward the city and lead to the docks of the harbor in the southwest. The west edge of the castle is on a cliff over looking the bay. The green tower should be attached to the Keep, because Morgan moves within the walls from one to the other. We also know that the very center is an open garden in the courtyard called the Barrough, this is the site that an ancient chieftains tome was found. (Codex: Green Tower page 106). Now, I realized the walls between the towers do not need to be straight lines; they could move in and out, or up and down with the lay of the land, but for simplicity sake I have drawn it this way.
So, here is the question. Which towers do you think would best fit which colors? The green tower can only be 2, 3, or 4. Not one of the south towers.
Any ideas where best to put the Keep and the green tower?
I have been rereading key parts that have Coroth Castle mentioned. I have still much research to review, but so far this is my personal conclusion of what the layout for Coroth Castle may look like. Please pitch in if you have other ideas.
Codex Derynianus tells us there are five towers in a pentagon type formation.
The Eleven Kingdom map suggests the entrance is to the south and the natural bay is to the west with a river traversing into the bay from the North.
We know Castle Coroth is on a plateau overlooking the city and bay.
We know the Green Tower is the highest tower and can be seen from far and wide.
In chapter 3 of Deryni Checkmate we learn:
There is a long narrow room off to the side of the Great Hall called the Solarium that looks out over the garden below.
Alaric exits the Great Hall and sees the Forge and stables across the Courtyard.
He turns to the right to pass through a gate in a stone wall and enters the garden.
The Falcon Mews are next to the stables on the garden side of the wall.
Alaric walks away from the falcon mews, down a gravel pathway to a reflecting pond and then beyond that to the Grotto of the Hours: a tome for the first Corwyn Duke.
Thusly, I am going to conclude that the Black Tower is in the south next to stables and forge and then the Great Gate; that the Keep and Green Tower are in the North. The Blue Tower would be west next to the bay and the Gold Tower would be in the east with the rising of the sun. That leaves the Red Tower in the South East with the Barracks and implements of war.
Here is my Lay out of Coroth Castle.
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/gallery/18693_09_09_16_1_32_10.jpeg)
The positions of the colors make sense to me compared to the positions of the angelic presences and their symbolic colors in the Wards Major. (Green is a healer color, but it's also associated with earth/growing things, which makes it as suitable for Uriel's position as black, and IIRC the gold/red/blue colors are also in their proper positions for a Ward Circle. The black tower is sort of the odd one out in this configuration, but it makes sense to have the martial colors that represent war and death closest to the gatehouse designed to keep enemies out and allow warriors to enter and exit.)
The Green Tower being sheltered by the Keep makes a lot of sense; this would help explain why it alone of the towers did not lose all of its window glass when ap Norfal's spell went awry. In theory, all of the towers are connected to the Keep via the curtain wall (the outer wall of the castle), which would be extremely thick and likely to have passages running through it to the other towers. But in position 3, the Green Tower could be even more directly connected to the Keep if it is at the back of the courtyard, which would be the logical place to put a Keep (i.e., far enough from the gatehouse that it could be more easily defended if the enemy somehow managed to breach the outer gates).
Your outbuildings all look to be in logical positions to me. One thing I would change is the location of your solarium. Solarium is another word for a solar, which was typically placed on an upper floor directly overlooking the Great Hall, and usually positioned directly over the dais and high table. There was often a peephole known as a squint or a small window that could be used by the lord and/or his family to peek down into the Great Hall from the solar above. I don't recall if a minstrel's gallery is mentioned, but it was often over the opposite end of the hall, above the screens. (The screens is the partition between the entrance to the building and the main part of the room. It's usually a wood paneled wall with doorways in it, and having them there helps to keep the cold air from blowing directly into the great hall in winter.) So I would put your solar where your stairs and part of the kitchen are now, but on an upper floor overlooking the hall.
Kitchens in this time period were usually not directly connected to the main hall due to the danger of fire. (At Rhemuth Castle, KK says the kitchens are on the lower floor beneath the Great Hall, but that is an atypical arrangement. Bet it keeps Kelson warm in winter, though!) You could perhaps have them in a building beside the Hall (like the one the residences are in, with an adjoining door between them. And you wouldn't need a space that large to hold the stairs. Or simply switching out the solarium and the kitchen/stairs on the map might work. Often the stairs would be built directly into the wall, if you have stone walls, or there might be a small tower containing a spiral staircase. Or you could have a dedicated stairway space, I suppose, but it probably wouldn't be quite that large in relation to the main hall. Consider the size of that stairwell in comparison to the size of your chapel, for instance. If it's meant to be a showy Grand Staircase, then sticking it in the very back of the keep is an odd location for it, and if it's meant to be a regular staircase, then it's in a huge space for utility stairs. Personally, I'd assume the stairs are built into the thickness of your walls and just mark out where those stairwells are. Often on castle maps you'll see these marked inside a wall with something that looks like a round pie with a slice cut out of it. I will assume there are also garderobes in various locations (probably also in the thickness of the outer wall) so people can tend to Nature's call. ;D
I am going to assume that the residences are for Alaric's officers and their families, and other members of the household entourage. Generally the lord himself and his family resided in the solar (and possibly adjoining rooms). Historically, the solar wasn't just used as a lady's bower or a parlor, although it often served that purpose during the day. At night it also became sleeping quarters for the lord's immediate family and sometimes even his closest retainers. However, since KK's nobles seems to enjoy a little more privacy than the early 12th Century nobility of our own world, we can assume that he's got a private bedchamber that's perhaps adjoining the solar, or perhaps somewhere in the Green Tower closely situated to the solar. He may prefer that over sharing his sleeping space with both his new bride and Lord Derry! ;-) Once the kids come along, their nursery would probably be close by as well.
Also, your version looks more like an authentic medieval castle than Deal Castle in Kent, which is Colonial era, IIRC, but have a quick peek at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_Castle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_Castle). I love the aerial view of Deal Castle; to me, it looks like what you'd get if you allow hippies, or perhaps a gardener, to design your castle. LOL! But seriously, this is another way that you could have a multi-tower configuration for a castle. But this has the courtyard in one of the outer "petals" rather than more centrally located, so your configuration is a much more likely layout for Coroth. As Coroth moves from the medieval age to an age of artillery, however, I can see its outer defenses eventually being adapted and enlarged upon to make them more cannon-proof and allow heavy artillery defense of Coroth Bay.
Once cannon's are developed, I can see Coroth City building huge thick walls about the whole of the city. Even in Alaric's time I believe their would be walls about the city to keep out invaders. As for the castle I can see where the walls between the towers could be rounded and moved outward to give more internal space. I think the ground to the west side would be slopping slightly downward toward the bay. The Blue tower may be lower than the other towers even if it stands at the same height. KK says that Morgans private study at the top of the green tower is about 20 feet in diameter. So adding width for the inner wall, the circular stair going up, and the thick outer wall, I would well believe that each tower is at least 80feet across that the base.
As to the lay out of the inside of the keep and the residences, I have no idea. The word I put as "stairs" just meant I thought they would be at the back of the hall some where but ?. When Morgan Haldane was running around the castle chasing bad guys, did he have a good modern floor plan to run through?
In Chapter three of Deryni Checkmate, KK writes
"Lord Robert of Tendal looked up from the document he had been reading and frowned as he glanced across at his employer. The duke was gazing out the solarium window to the barren garden below, his thoughts miles away."
and on the next page
"Robert rolled his eyes heavenward in a silent appeal for patience, then waved dismissal with a gesture of defeat. Morgan jumped up and bowed with a certain ironic flourish, then turned on his heel and strode out of the solarium to the great hall beyond."
I am thinking that rather than a private solar, which would be part of the dukes apartments, that this particular room is equivalent to a withdrawing room or war room found on the main floor next to the great hall. Since we know the garden is on the right side of the keep than there has to be a window to look out.
Making an inner diagram of the keep is more than my mind can think on. Where is Shiral when I need her? ;D LOL
Keep the ideas flowing.
Quote from: Evie on September 09, 2016, 02:45:10 PM
The positions of the colors make sense to me compared to the positions of the angelic presences and their symbolic colors in the Wards Major. (Green is a healer color, but it's also associated with earth/growing things, which makes it as suitable for Uriel's position as black, and IIRC the gold/red/blue colors are also in their proper positions for a Ward Circle. The black tower is sort of the odd one out in this configuration, but it makes sense to have the martial colors that represent war and death closest to the gatehouse designed to keep enemies out and allow warriors to enter and exit.)
Evie, I am glad you pointed out that green is also suitable for Uriel. As I had trouble reconciling the north tower being the Black Tower. Since you have mentioned this, I feel even more secure that the green tower is in the North side of the Castle fortifications. Presumably this castle was built on the foundations of a Pre-Byzantyum architecture and was a place of high magical power. Interestingly they had five sources of power. Over the centuries, did the Deryni loose one source of power, leaving the four archangels, were there originally five?
Interesting. The solar was thus called because it was generally an upper story room with windows to let in light, so maybe the solarium (which does indeed seem to be on the same level as the great hall, if Morgan went directly from one to the other without going down stairs) also has a lot of windows that overlook the garden area. Or it could even have cloister-style arches or arched doorways leading into the garden courtyard, sort of like a covered porch/outdoor room space, though given Gwynedd's climate, I imagine a fully walled room is more likely. Either way, I imagine it has a lot of natural light coming in from somewhere if it's being called a solarium. I can see Richenda taking advantage of the light in that room to do needlework while Alaric does his daytime reading in the same sunny space. (If this were in a later century, I could even see a greenhouse style structure being called a solarium. I put a conservatory in Rhemuth Castle's gardens in Visionaries, but it's a tad anachronistic for this century. However, since Gwynedd's tech level tends to be a bit advanced compared to ours, it's vaguely possible Alaric might have one also. Possible, but unlikely, given that unless it's a recent build, the same explosion that destroyed the other tower window would have also blown a greenhouse building to smithereens, not to mention the prohibitive expense of that much glass being used to build a room off the Great Hall. No, an adjoining stone-walled or timber-framed room with lots of windows is far more likely, alas for my imaginings!)
Quote from: Laurna on September 09, 2016, 03:53:53 PM
Quote from: Evie on September 09, 2016, 02:45:10 PM
The positions of the colors make sense to me compared to the positions of the angelic presences and their symbolic colors in the Wards Major. (Green is a healer color, but it's also associated with earth/growing things, which makes it as suitable for Uriel's position as black, and IIRC the gold/red/blue colors are also in their proper positions for a Ward Circle. The black tower is sort of the odd one out in this configuration, but it makes sense to have the martial colors that represent war and death closest to the gatehouse designed to keep enemies out and allow warriors to enter and exit.)
Evie, I am glad you pointed out that green is also suitable for Uriel. As I had trouble reconciling the north tower being the Black Tower. Since you have mentioned this, I feel even more secure that the green tower is in the North side of the Castle fortifications. Presumably this castle was built on the foundations of a Pre-Byzantyum architecture and was a place of high magical power. Interestingly they had five sources of power. Over the centuries, did the Deryni loose one source of power, leaving the four archangels, were there originally five?
I think some magical traditions use five elements rather than four (or the four archangels), but I don't know what the fifth might customarily be. Spirit, I think. In the movie
The Fifth Element, that fifth element (besides Air, Fire, Water, and Earth) was Love, but that might not be the most authoritative reference for researching lost Deryni traditions. ;)
The fifth element in a lot of traditions is Spirit, and Camber actually referenced it at one point, I think when they were scrying for Ariella's battle plans/troop placement, but I could be mistaken about the exact time. I know he did make reference to Air, Fire, Water, and Earth being united by Spirit in one of his endeavours, though.
Good point DR.
Not long ago I recall reading one of the ritual magics, and duplicating it for a story where they mentioned the spirit as a 5th part, and I wondered about it not understanding the significants. When I get home from work I will look it up. Thanks.
Quote from: Evie on September 09, 2016, 03:02:57 PMAlso, your version looks more like an authentic medieval castle than Deal Castle in Kent, which is Colonial era, IIRC, but have a quick peek at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_Castle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_Castle). I love the aerial view of Deal Castle; to me, it looks like what you'd get if you allow hippies, or perhaps a gardener, to design your castle. LOL! But seriously, this is another way that you could have a multi-tower configuration for a castle. But this has the courtyard in one of the outer "petals" rather than more centrally located, so your configuration is a much more likely layout for Coroth. As Coroth moves from the medieval age to an age of artillery, however, I can see its outer defenses eventually being adapted and enlarged upon to make them more cannon-proof and allow heavy artillery defense of Coroth Bay.
I visited Deal a few years ago and it was originally a 16th century construction, I'm not sure if that would fit 'colonial' era but I'm the wrong side of the Atlantic for that to make sense to me.
Quote from: Laurna on September 09, 2016, 03:33:44 PMOnce cannon's are developed, I can see Coroth City building huge thick walls about the whole of the city. Even in Alaric's time I believe their would be walls about the city to keep out invaders.
Effective defenses against cannon require very extensive walls (low, thick and often with multiple moats).
Coroth Castle having five substantial towers would be an unusual feature in our history - usually the central keep would be
the tower, with perhaps the gatehouse and some very low towers along the wall (at most 1 storey higher). That's certainly not the impression I get of Coroth though.
It's also worth remembering that Coroth was home to the Kings of Mooryn for centuries. It probably encloses a considerable area.
I'd suggest turning the Great Hall so that one wall merges with the wall between the Green Tower and the Gold Tower. This would mean a simpler construction and the solarium would face south-east rather than east, meaning side windows would get sun through more of the day.
Also the walls connecting the towers are probably not the outer wall of the castle. If you look at this picture, remove the central square keep and have the five towers each part of the inner wall that surrounded it, then there's still the outer wall containing space for more extensive facilities for occasions when the castle needs to host a significant number of vassals and their soldiers.
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_jTDjh9lzrRU%2FTO0lBCLJAiI%2FAAAAAAAADyo%2Fm989xYSO5gA%2Fs1600%2Fdover%2Bcastle%2Bair.jpg&hash=1df67aab4df752b1955a2d5b06518f6dd2e9bc81)
And although you show a residence, I'd think the towers themselves would contain significant residential space (although an additional residential wing might have been added by the time of Morgan Haldane). Unless the towers are quite narrow, of course.
Thankyou Drakensis
Dover castle is a great example of what Coroth could look like as a castle by the sea. Love the outer walls traversing the hill sides. I wonder what KK used as a visual guide as she wrote our favorite novels. I am not sure that the 5 tower configuration came into being until a little later in the story arch when she starting devising Lewys Ap Norfal's spell gone awry.
Coroth itself is already a thousand years old, being that it is such a strategic natural bay between the Southern Sea and the Twin River deltas, I well imagine a lot of funds were spent on its defense from a very early age. For the Duchy of Corwyn to claim neutrality after the Haldane restoration, it had to be well fortified to not be swallowed by either Gwynedd or Torenth. That is until the battles of Rengarth. ;D Thus my interest in the lay out of the castle and court yard. ;)
I am playing with your notion of turning the keep to match the north/east wall. Unfortunately it then defies KK's description of Morgan walking out of the Great Hall and seeing the stables and forge across the courtyard and turning right to enter the garden through a gate in a wall that goes from the keep to the stable. This wall would then cut the entire castle grounds in half and make for a much smaller courtyard. Maybe that would work, but I am not yet happy with it. I am still playing with different ideas. If anyone has other quotes that I have missed please share them.
Thanks
Quote from: drakensis on September 10, 2016, 12:39:24 AM
Quote from: Evie on September 09, 2016, 03:02:57 PMAlso, your version looks more like an authentic medieval castle than Deal Castle in Kent, which is Colonial era, IIRC, but have a quick peek at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_Castle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_Castle). I love the aerial view of Deal Castle; to me, it looks like what you'd get if you allow hippies, or perhaps a gardener, to design your castle. LOL! But seriously, this is another way that you could have a multi-tower configuration for a castle. But this has the courtyard in one of the outer "petals" rather than more centrally located, so your configuration is a much more likely layout for Coroth. As Coroth moves from the medieval age to an age of artillery, however, I can see its outer defenses eventually being adapted and enlarged upon to make them more cannon-proof and allow heavy artillery defense of Coroth Bay.
I visited Deal a few years ago and it was originally a 16th century construction, I'm not sure if that would fit 'colonial' era but I'm the wrong side of the Atlantic for that to make sense to me.
Yes, it fits. "In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue" is the rhyme all schoolchildren of my generation were as familiar with as English schoolkids are with 1066 as a reference point. Our state (the former colony) of Virginia was founded in the 1500s and named for Elizabeth I, the Virgin Queen. And Jamestown was named for her successor, James I. We learn about Walter Raleigh and Francis Drake in our Colonial Period studies. So 16th C. falls smack dab in the middle of all that.
Quote
Quote from: Laurna on September 09, 2016, 03:33:44 PMOnce cannon's are developed, I can see Coroth City building huge thick walls about the whole of the city. Even in Alaric's time I believe their would be walls about the city to keep out invaders.
Effective defenses against cannon require very extensive walls (low, thick and often with multiple moats).
Coroth Castle having five substantial towers would be an unusual feature in our history - usually the central keep would be the tower, with perhaps the gatehouse and some very low towers along the wall (at most 1 storey higher). That's certainly not the impression I get of Coroth though.
It's also worth remembering that Coroth was home to the Kings of Mooryn for centuries. It probably encloses a considerable area.
Good points re: the walls. I imagine that the city was walled in addition to the castle having multiple walls (an outer bailey and an inner bailey) so if the outer gate is breached, the inner gate can still hold off attackers before they reach the keep.
Quote
I'd suggest turning the Great Hall so that one wall merges with the wall between the Green Tower and the Gold Tower. This would mean a simpler construction and the solarium would face south-east rather than east, meaning side windows would get sun through more of the day.
I agree. And Coroth Castle's builders would probably thank you, since it would save on stone cutting to have a shared wall on one side of the Keep. If Morgan turns right at the great hall door because he's heading for the garden gate, he'd still see the stable and forge across the courtyard from him as he's making his way to the garden, so I think it still fits the book description Laurna mentions. The shape of the garden needn't change, just the angle of the keep, making Morgan's walk to the garden gate just a little longer. Basically, pretend there's a pivot point at the rear of the Keep and pivot it on that axis until it's flush against the wall to the right.
Quote
Also the walls connecting the towers are probably not the outer wall of the castle. If you look at this picture, remove the central square keep and have the five towers each part of the inner wall that surrounded it, then there's still the outer wall containing space for more extensive facilities for occasions when the castle needs to host a significant number of vassals and their soldiers.
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_jTDjh9lzrRU%2FTO0lBCLJAiI%2FAAAAAAAADyo%2Fm989xYSO5gA%2Fs1600%2Fdover%2Bcastle%2Bair.jpg&hash=1df67aab4df752b1955a2d5b06518f6dd2e9bc81)
And although you show a residence, I'd think the towers themselves would contain significant residential space (although an additional residential wing might have been added by the time of Morgan Haldane). Unless the towers are quite narrow, of course.
Yes, the towers would definitely be used for housing as well as storage needs, and quite likely there'd be some sleeping quarters in the gatehouse as well for the off-shift guards posted there.
Mind if I go crazy for a moment.....!
My Kindle e-book version of Deryni Checkmate chapter three reads:
"Morgan scanned the courtyard automatically as he left the great hall. Far across the yard by the stables, he saw a stable boy running beside a handsome chestnut destrier, one of the R'Kassan stallions the Hortic traders had brought in last week. .... And to the left by the forge, Morgan's young military aide, Sean Lord Derry, was talking earnestly with James the blacksmith....
He reached a side gate to the right of the great hall and let himself through. .... He saw a man cleaning the falcon mews far to the left, close by the stable area..."
My Hard copy, real book, reads "...He reached a side gate to the left of the great hall and let himself through..."
Is one a typo? Is one changed on purpose? EECK! :o
I'd say pick a direction and call it good. It's probably an accidental error. Stuff happens, particularly when converting from one format to another.
Found this image for fun
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/bc/45/1b/bc451b363fcbaaab8fb8c68f5109fb22.jpg)
Well, silly me! :D I spent the afternoon doodling and came up with this.
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/gallery/18693_10_09_16_6_55_08.jpeg)
Looks cool! And the left/right door confusion doesn't look like it would be a typical scanning error ("deer" in place of "door" for instance). My guess is that KK has at least a rough sketch of Coroth Castle's layout in her notes, or some sort of partial one, and one version of the text is a correction of an error in the older version. It would be an easy mistake to make, as we tend to think in terms of what is left or right to ourselves when looking at a picture, but someone in that picture facing us would have their left on our right and vice versa. I know KK uses floor plan sketches for at least some locations, because she kindly sent me her floor plan for Duncan's study when I started trying to work out the layout of the room in hopes of making a diorama.
Does it specify anywhere that the towers are equidistant? Because if not, and if the tower is influenced by Moorish design/the Moorish threat, then it could be influenced by Castel Nuovo in Naples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_Nuovo
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@40.8386516,14.2517418,3a,75y,90h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAbPFbRIA2QVp7z787fsHkg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
On a related subject, does anyone know a good online resource for making castles accurate/believable for writing fiction/roleplaying?
I think I've seen such a site, but I can't think where at the moment. I'll see if I can look for it sometime tomorrow. I think I ran across it when trying to do a search for castle floor plans, if that helps.
Thanks Evie! There's no hurry for it (it'll be some time before I need it) but it'll be really useful, so am looking forward to seeing it :)
Quote from: whitelaughter on September 18, 2016, 10:16:15 PM
On a related subject, does anyone know a good online resource for making castles accurate/believable for writing fiction/roleplaying?
I'm not sure if this is the website I was vaguely remembering or not, but it looks like it might be useful for your purpose. If I happen upon others, I'll post them here also.
http://medievalcastles.stormthecastle.com/castle-floor-plans.htm (http://medievalcastles.stormthecastle.com/castle-floor-plans.htm)
Here is a site I have used a few times for details like how far a horse can go on different terrains, and what a shore line will look like. But I have also seen maps of castles and dungeons to name many other maps both fictional and non-fictional here. The trouble is there is so much information here that sometimes it is hard to find what you are looking for. But I like the sight for realism to details in writing fiction.
https://www.cartographersguild.com/content.php (https://www.cartographersguild.com/content.php) this is the main sight
https://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730 (https://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730) this is the thread on horse travel.
I search for castle floor plans and came up with several threads to search through.
Quote from: Laurna on September 22, 2016, 12:25:20 PM
Here is a site I have used a few times for details like how far a horse can go on different terrains, and what a shore line will look like. But I have also seen maps of castles and dungeons to name many other maps both fictional and non-fictional here. The trouble is there is so much information here that sometimes it is hard to find what you are looking for. But I like the sight for realism to details in writing fiction.
https://www.cartographersguild.com/content.php (https://www.cartographersguild.com/content.php) this is the main sight
https://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730 (https://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730) this is the thread on horse travel.
I search for castle floor plans and came up with several threads to search through.
Oh yes, I love the Cartographers' Guild! ;D
;D Thanks for links ;D
Good morning Whitelaughter!
You just reminded me I have not shared my last version of Coroth Castle layout. I don't imagine it is quite what KK had in mind. but it is as close as I can make it with the descriptions from the books.
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/gallery/18693_09_10_16_2_49_48.jpeg)
Very cool, Laurna!
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/aa/c5/be/aac5be1031e9ba1458c2e43b3735b658.jpg)
I came across this image of the Castle of Ghent and instantly thought of Coroth.
Imagine this--you are rafting down the Rhengarth River toward Coroth Bay, and come across the north/west Blue tower of Coroth castle.
The only change would be the center tower along the wall would be taller. Add to the image the tallest green tower on the very left edge of the image, make it a level or two above the main hall.
Ideas?
Lovely castle!
I like it, Laurna. All it needs is the Corwyn banner flying from the ramparts.
In my long search for the Protocols of Orin, I came across Shiral's essay on Shiral Crystals found here. ;D
The Uses of Shiral Crystals, by Melissa Houle http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,1946.0.html
In that essay I discovered this discription:
Quote
Lewys ap Norfal
There is one further use for shiral crystals that doesn't fall into any of the three categories. We the readers cannot know what Lewys ap Norfal hoped to achieve in his experiment at Coroth Castle, but surely his own disappearance wasn't it. It had to have been important to him, for he defied the Camberian Council of his day. There is a brief description of his procedure in the Codex Derynianus:
"At sunrise on the XXIst day of March in the year 1052 which is the Vernal Equinox, Lord Lewys conducted a magical working in the Barroughyard near the center of the Castle grounds, erecting a large shiral crystal there. As the light of the sun touched the windows of the Green Tower, it reflected into the garden, each subsequent Tower adding its light to the focal point as the sun continued to rise. When the last Tower, which had windows of black obsidian glass, was touched by the rays of light, the crystal suddenly flashed white, temporarily blinding all of the observers." Codex Derynianus, p.99.
All the observers could be sure of afterwards was that Lewys had disappeared and hasn't been seen or heard from since. If nobody knew that he was dead, he couldn't be said to be alive, either.
Shiral, may I ask if this is from the first edition Codex, because I am not able to discover this Quote in the soft cover Edition.
From this description, I am lead to believe that the whole castle will be turned about 45 degrees from what I have drawn. The green tower will be furthest North/east while the black tower furthest west. That would put the open gates instead of South, more in line with the harbor, facing South/West. and the Vermilion tower almost directly South.
Any Ideas?
I can tell you that passage is also in the 2nd edition of the Codex, since that is the version I have, although I don't know what page number I read it on. I found that passage when looking up information for my description of Coroth Castle in BoP. I think it might be under the Coroth entry, if not Lewis' entry.
OK! Found it!
Codex 2nd edition, Page 106, under the entry of "Green Tower"
Thank you.
I remember studying this early on, but forgot about the sun placement during Lewys's experiment.
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As you can see, I am still playing with what Coroth Castle could look like. To better match the description in the Codex about Lewys ap Norfal's experiment, I turned the gates to the south west facing the harbor. That aligns the south tower (the Vermilion Tower) with the calling of the wards much better. This then calls for a switch of the blue and black towers, making the blue tower in the west and the black tower in the north, where it should be according to the archangels. The Blue Tower is on the Cliff over looking the bay. The black tower is on the cliff next to the River as it cascades down a waterfall into the bay. The fifth tower then becomes the green tower. Green is for Healers and therefore can be associated with the Archangel Raphael in the East and green can also be associated with Uriel in the north. Therefore, the green tower is in the North/East. Also the green tower is much taller then all the other towers. The keep and the green tower would be on the highest part of the hill looking over the Harbor That is why it gets the morning light first. The black tower gets the light last because it is lower and furthest North/West. I hope this makes sense.
The only trouble I am having is that because Gwynedd is so far north of the planets equatorial line that the morning sunlight would never shine on the North side of the gold and vermilion towers which need to be lite by sunlight facing the inner courtyard for the experiment to work. So either Coroth is located around 23 Degrees Latitude North (the Tropic of Cancer) and it can only be performed on the summer solstice, or the sunlight must be magically transferred around to the inside facing tower windows, Maybe by mirrors, else-wise I do not see how this experiment would work. But it makes for a good story, anyway.
Quote from: Laurna on June 19, 2017, 02:21:55 AM
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The only trouble I am having is that the morning sunlight would only shine on the outside part of the gold and vermilion towers. Therefore, unless the light is magically transferred around to the inside facing tower windows, I do not see how this experiment would work. But it makes for a good story, anyway.
Remember that the curtain wall (that outer wall connecting the towers) would not be as high as the towers themselves, not to mention that the sun would be traveling much higher in the sky than any part of the castle structure; therefore, sunlight would still reach the towers on the opposite side of the castle, at least once the sun has risen enough for the light to clear the lower curtain wall.
I was playing around with my layout of Coroth Castle and I started to wonder what the Great Hall of Coroth would look like. It would be a combination of British and Mediteranian styles that showed high wealth, for Coroth is the center of trade routes in the Southern Sea to all the Eleven Kingdoms. I fell in love with Hampton Court's ceiling rafters and Monreale Cathdral, Italy's columns and plastered walls. Maybe this is a little too grand for 1127, but when I had played with the pictures and made them mesh together I feel in love with the place. Tell me what you think.
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/gallery/18693_11_07_22_6_33_09.jpeg)
I love that image of the great hall, and I love the diagrams of the castle!
I love it Laurna and I think the mixture of styles is just right for Coroth. A bit too fancy for Alaric I suspect, but like his elablorate ducal clothes he has to learn to live with it.
I love it, Laurna! What will we have to do to wrangle a dinner invitation?
I agree with the revision of the layout of Coroth castle, I think it fits really well. I also love the great hall but I agree that Alaric might have liked something a little less ornate. However, 1. he inheritied it and it certainly is impressive and 2. impressing visiting leaders would certainly serve an important purpose, especially if he was trying to negotiate an agreement. I would have liked to be able to see a little more detail, particularly of the high table. Were those tables along the walls of the hall or benches. I thought he might need more seating room there. Great job. I love it when you do these studies of the surroundings of the important settingss in the eleven kingdoms. Don't happen to have one for Rhemuth Castle do you?
Well that is certainly gorgeous! I don't mind admitting that I'd kinda like to live there. :)
Remember Coroth was the largest city in the Deryni Kingdom of Mooryn which formed from the Byzantyn Empire. The first king of Mooryn was declared in 561. The kingdom did not become a duchy of Rhemuth untill the end of the Rengarth wars in 983. The great hall at Coroth Castle would have been the thrown room for the Mooryn Kingdom, and later the ducal palace for Corwyn. I have no doubt the walls would have been painted in gold.
A agree that the great hall would have been far about what Alaric would have liked. he merely inherited this huge castle on the cliffs overlooking the Coroth Harbor. He just had to keep it from falling into ruin. Or more likely it was Duchess Richenda who made sure it stayed in good repair.
Oh that Great Hall is gorgeous! I would love more detail. I can imagine Alaric squirming through an official dinner there. I agree too ornate for him, but oh what a hardship...
We all love to see His Grace, Duke Alaric, squirm. Perhaps the ornateness of Coroth is what kept him leaving it so often and returning to Rhemuth. Love the idea of setting down to dinner with Alaric.
I agreed that Alaric would not have liked the last image. So, I spent the day redoing the great hall. I shouldn't get so focused on these things, but after spending the morning repairing horse stall plumbing, I had little desire to do any house work. So, I made this instead. Do you think Alaric would like His Great Hall renovations much better?
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/gallery/18693_03_11_20_2_08_22.jpeg)
Definitely. Though he would like to point out that he and Derry could have sorted your horse stall work out with no trouble
I think he would have liked it as it is lighter, a little less ornate, and appears larger. But first it was the throne room of the kingdom of Mooryn and I think it would have had more of the gold on the columns. Overall, I think Alaric approves.
I do like the lighter look; it appears much more spacious, and I like the stonework behind the high table.
I, too, like the lighter stonework as well as the lighter (maple?) wood of the ceiling. And I'm pretty sure either Alaric or Derry (or both) would be wondering why the horses get plumbing while they're still stuck with... not-plumbing.
Quote from: Bethane on November 03, 2020, 04:35:39 PM
I, too, like the lighter stonework as well as the lighter (maple?) wood of the ceiling. And I'm pretty sure either Alaric or Derry (or both) would be wondering why the horses get plumbing while they're still stuck with... not-plumbing.
HAHAHA! I love that, the horses get plumbing but the duke does not! LOL Honestly, neither Alaric nor Derry would have cared to play with my barn plumbing. It required digging in mud, replacing PVC and installing a new waterer. I am sure his grace has gardeners for such tasks.
Although, if that was the price for the renovations for Coroth's great room, Alaric just might have gladly paid it with his own bare hands. The lighter wood ceiling is due to a different photo of the same great hall of Hampton Court. Obviously taken with better lighting. I like that color better too. However, the new photo did not photo-shop as evenly as the first photo. I had to do a lot of cut and paste and resizing and even skewing a few parts to make it conform to the columns of the cathedral images. I was going to try to make the side upper walls look like stone blocks too, but that became too ornery to get right. I do prefer the matching light wood paneling on the dais rather than curtains.
I wish I understood 3d modeling. I would love to try and image the castle grounds on the cliff overlooking the harbor. There is a river that passes by the north wall of the castle that sends some of it's water down the Groto of the Hours and into the castle ponds. Four of the towers are the same in stone work height, however they are on uneven ground. So the blue tower appears shortest nearest the bay. The green tower is tallest because it must be taller than the roof of the great hall which is four stories up. The Great hall and the green tower also sit on the highest rock formation on the cliff side. It is said you can see the green tower from all four directions and even far out at sea. I would love to figure out how to draw that.
I looked at it again and I think Alaric definitely approves of the newer version.
I also think Alaric would have liked the second one better. It does look more spacious but maybe not with tables in it.
He would still squirm through a state dinner.
Definitely the second one. Thank you for all your hard work on this Laurn, helping us to visualise one of the eleven kingdoms key locations.
Alaric would squirm though a State Dinner. No matter where he was.
Thanks ladies.
I envision the thick stone South Wall above the great bronze doors to have a set of three arched windows to let the light in. The hall would be darkest in the morning as there are no east windows. The east side is the residents apartments. and then the highest curtain wall to protect against attack from the east. The hall would be brightest in the afternoon, letting in the afternoon sun through the clerestory windows on the west side. And of course the main floor Solar is on the west side with large windows that open up onto the garden. That is where KK has shown us that Alaric prefers to do most of his work. And likely where lady Richenda brings her ladies to do their needle work in the afternoon. The duke's apartments are also on the west side overlooking the garden, likely with loots of arched windows to catch the light.
So what would be in those other towers (the non-green towers)? Is that where guests are quartered or where servants live?
Not at all. The other towers have been boarded up since 1052 after the disappearance of Lord Lewys ap Norfal during a magical ritual he conducted there. His patron and friend the Duke Stiofan Anthony only left the Green Tower in tact. All the glass plates were taken out of the others and put into storage (presumably in the towers themselves.)
Such fun. I love the Green Tower and Lewys ap Norfal story.
Though I wonder how they used the other towers before the experiment went wrong. That's a lot of real estate.
Quote from: Bynw on November 05, 2020, 07:15:19 PM
Not at all. The other towers have been boarded up since 1052 after the disappearance of Lord Lewys ap Norfal during a magical ritual he conducted there. His patron and friend the Duke Stiofan Anthony only left the Green Tower in tact. All the glass plates were taken out of the others and put into storage (presumably in the towers themselves.)
Well then, were do the servants live and guests quartered? Where would they put K&A when the come to visit? They can't very well stay in the barracks...
I had considered that the rooms on the second floor east residence wing would be guest rooms. and the third and fourth floors would be rooms for the notable families of Corwyn when they stayed. Most of the servants of the castle would bed down on pallets in the Long Hall ( the large working hall adjacent to the Great Hall). I believe a majority of servants bed down in rooms around where they worked: In the kitchen, the artisan building, the barracks, and the smithy. Also the local clergy would have rooms next to the chapel.
What I had not considered, and thank you for reminding me, is having a guest room grand enough to house the king and queen. But I will guess that Alaric would have made some guest accommodation worthy of Royalty. There could always be a royal guest room in the green tower on the level of the second floor. but the room might have no more than one or two arrow slit windows, for the secret stair way goes up on the inside of at least half of that tower wall. Interesting consideration.
It seems a shame that no effort has ever been made to restore the other towers for use. Why would they be allowed to sit there empty and boarded up for centuries? Are they afraid of residual magic or of experiencing whatever effects resulted in the disappearance of Lewys? If the green tower remained in use, why none of the others? As someone commented, that's a lot of resl estate.
I wonder whether with de Nore, Loris and common the prowl they thought it best not to draw attention to Coroth. And there were a succession of regencies.
Sorry that should read and co on the prowl
The towers of Coroth are one of the great mysteries of KK's Eleven Kingdoms. They most definitely are a conduit of Magic. We know they are laid out as the points of a perfect five pointed star. We know they were built upon very large ancient Ruin Rune Stones that stand for the five Protocols of Magic. We know there is a crept in the very center of the grounds. Ap Lewys's experiment blew out the upper windows on the four unprotected towers. The green tower was saved, presumably by the Great Hall between it and the center where Ap Lewys stood over the crept. More information on the towers would have to come from KK or from fan speculation. And we do all like to speculate. That is the fun of it, YES?
Quote from: Laurna on November 06, 2020, 11:38:36 AM
The towers of Coroth are one of the great mysteries of KK's Eleven Kingdoms. They most definitely are a conduit of Magic. We know they are laid out as the points of a perfect five pointed star. We know they were built upon very large ancient Ruin Stones that stand for the five Protocols of Magic. We know there is a crept in the very center of the grounds. Ap Lewys's experiment blew out the upper windows on the four unprotected towers. The green tower was saved, presumably by the Great Hall between it and the center where Ap Lewys stood over the crept. More information on the towers would have to come from KK or from fan speculation. And we do all like to speculate. That is the fun of it, YES?
Speculation about these towers can be lots of fun. Do you mean Rune stones or Ruins stones? I was thinking rune stones with ancient writing on them related to the magic protocols. And did you mean a crypt in the center of the grounds? We know these towers are ancient, maybe even predating the Kingdom of Mooryn. I wonder if Orin may have visited there or even have spent time there, devising his protocols and overseeing the construction of the towers to guard their secrets, maybe held in the rune stones. It would be really amazing to be able to establish a direct link between Coroth Castle and its towers and Orin. We never did get to know what magical experiment Lewys was attempting. Wonder if he might have been trying to contact Orin or connect him with Coroth. You are right Laurna. THis is lots of fun.
This is a description of Alaric's great hall by Alkari that I found in her story "Legacy"
in the splendour. Daylight spilling from high-set windows was supplemented by torches set on some of the tall pillars. Rich wood panelling, some of it carved ornately – tapestries and colourful banners – heavy iron chandeliers, their candles as yet unlit – two large fireplaces to either side, also unlit in the mild autumn – and at the far end of the hall, the ducal dais.
I also looked at how Great Halls are used; for Ducal courts, for people gathering to eat, conducting the business of the court, even for sleeping. Question, should there be tables or benches set up in the hall or did they move, or remove and set up again for different functions? From what I'm reading, it was the main living space in the castle and had to meet a lot of different needs. France and others.
That is a nice description by Alkari. Thank you for providing that. I agree there should be torches and colorful banners across the upper walls And I should add large Hearths. I have tapastires hung over the second story walls. As to the tables I think those come and go with need. Nice additions, I am just not artistic enough to try to free draw those.
Oh and Yes, I meant Rune Stones, as in Magic glyphs drawn carved on large flat floor stones in the center floor of each tower. Good catch, I will edit that.
Playing the SIMs game lately(too much) but you can build castles on it. So This is my version of Coroth Castle. It is built on the largest lot available in the game. I imaginethat Coroth from the books is actually larger than this and not square. But here is the closest I can come to what I know of Coroth Castle.
(https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/gallery/18693_03_05_23_7_22_05.jpeg)
Amazing detail! I want to move in.