The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => The Childe Morgan => Topic started by: Lochiel on May 22, 2016, 11:07:10 AM

Title: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 22, 2016, 11:07:10 AM
Greetings friends!  I am a long time Deryni reader from the early 1980's, and it still is my favorite fantasy series.  I am currently rereading the Quest For Saint Camber and the Kelson series after rereading the Childe Morgan series after FINALLY, buying and reading the Kings Deryni.  Now Stefan Coram has long intrigued me as conspiring from within the Camberian Council to redirect the Council back to its lofty goals (this is what I believe) and it looks like Jamyl Arilan is also a conspirator in this from snippets from the King's Deryni. Does anyone else concur or have alternative ideas or information to the contrary?  I am also curious as to why Jamyl disappears from the series.  Does Stefan also have abilities and or powers not accessible to other high Deryni?   
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: DesertRose on May 22, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
Not sure about Stefan's powers.  Per Codex, Jamyl dies of injuries sustained in battle under King Brion against the Mearans in 1107.

If you can, you are invited and welcome to join us in chat this evening around 7pm US Eastern time; Ms. Kurtz generally joins us in the chat room and will entertain your questions, although an actual answer is her prerogative.  :D
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 22, 2016, 11:17:48 AM
Thank you for your reply, I forgot to check my Codex for Jamyl (yikes).  But Stefan and to some extent Jamyl (and maybe others?) seem to be working outside the CC who has to some extent fallen from their lofty goals of its beginnings.  I thank you for your response and I will try and make the chat. Having Miss Kurtz in chat would certainly be a honor and treat! 
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: DesertRose on May 22, 2016, 11:58:41 AM
She shows up most Sundays, using her initials (KK) to sign in.  She's awesome, but the chats themselves are not always Deryni-oriented.  A lot of times we wander quite far afield topic wise, frequently discussing pets (particularly cats but sometimes dogs and other pets) and various projects and things that are going on in people's lives.  If you do join us (and I hope you can/will) and someone says or does something you don't understand, just ask if no one offers a spontaneous explanation.

When she joins us, we post a log of the chat for the time she is present under Chat Logs here on the forum; if you want to get a feel for what chat is like, feel free to check out the logs.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 22, 2016, 06:41:29 PM
My last cat was named Ansel, and my present dog is named Camber (rescue dog) that is a german shepard/border collie/corgie/beagle mix and she is super smart!  So the animal friend chatting is cool! I hope I make it tonite or another one! Thanks again for welcoming me!
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Demercia on May 23, 2016, 06:48:44 AM
Hi Lochiel, good to have you on board.  I am a bit of an irregular poster, due to pressure of work, but I am an accomplished forum lurker and try to make it to early chat - which is very kindly two hours earlier every first Sunday of the month to accommodate those of us on the east side of the Pond.  Your name took me back to my teens, "the flight of the heron" was probably the first book I fell in love with, not to mention its hero😀
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: DesertRose on May 23, 2016, 08:48:37 AM
Quote from: Lochiel on May 22, 2016, 06:41:29 PM
My last cat was named Ansel, and my present dog is named Camber (rescue dog) that is a german shepard/border collie/corgie/beagle mix and she is super smart!  So the animal friend chatting is cool! I hope I make it tonite or another one! Thanks again for welcoming me!

Mixed-breed dogs, in my experience, make the best pets.  :)

BTW, if you have a photo (or several) of Camber (or Ansel), you are welcome to upload any photos to the Gallery under Fur Kids, where there are many photos of the various pets of forum members.  KK's pets have their own gallery category, if you want to see the cats and dogs who share Ms. Kurtz's home.  (She has several of both species.)
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on May 23, 2016, 10:10:04 AM
Hi, good to have another Deryni-ite on the forum.

Fascinating topic you raise - there are some hints are that very powerful Deryni who still manage to survive in persecution era Gwynedd. Jamyl is one and Michon de Courcy is another who is mentioned and who fascinates me. So much backstory still to explore.

And yes - Lochiel is a name to bring back adolescent crushes.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Demercia on May 23, 2016, 01:05:27 PM
Oddly enough I have just seen a heron flying across from the local pond
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 24, 2016, 08:30:03 AM
Thank you friends for the kind replies.  Another question on Stefan Coram from the High Deryni book, is how does he know Duncan's very secret Deryni heritage from his mother's side?  And he has some high deryni abilities that seem to be equal or close to equal of Camber & Co.  I'll have to ask KK this on a future chat, and my belief that him and others may be working outside the CC for their own agenda which seems to be a return to the CC's original goals.  My user name has always held a special meaning to me.  I'm sure we will be seeing Lochiel in future Outlander episodes
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Laurna on May 24, 2016, 12:27:44 PM
My guess is that Stefan had learned about Duncan's heritage from Denis Arilan. There are two questions unaswered.  Did Denis tell Stefan in private or did he tell all the CC members.  I suspect all the CC members knew. And the more important question is how did Denis discover Duncan's secret way back in Duncan's teen years, when no-one but Duncan, Alaric, Alice and Vera knew the truth? 
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 24, 2016, 07:32:00 PM
I like your guess, perhaps Dennis was told by Duncan during confession?  And since Denis is the brother of Jamyl who seems to be involved in a conspiracy with Stefan Coram and perhaps others, to redirect and restore the original lofty goals of the CC, I like your line of thought Laurna.  I would love to pose this question to kk.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Demercia on May 25, 2016, 01:09:25 AM
That was my first thought too, that Duncan might have told Denis in confession - but I don't think it can be right, because at that stage Duncan would have no idea that Denis was Deryni.  Also Denis would have been bound from ever revealing that, or strictly, and I am sure he was punctilious, from acting on it.   I'm starting to wonder if it doesn't go much further back and whether Vera's parents didn't confide in the Arilan's,they both seem to be members of a Deryni elite.  And if Duncan discovers that it would help explain why he never forgives Denis for his hiding his identity and not helping.  Hmmm, I haven't got time at the moment to follow the threads, but I am on holiday in just over a week. 
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Demercia on May 25, 2016, 01:26:30 AM
It also depends which of the mysterious appearances are Stefan and which actually Camber, what Stefan needs to have known when.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 25, 2016, 07:06:29 AM
Vera's parents telling the Arilan's  or the CC or some select Deryni "elites" is a good line of thought.  Besides all the other mysteries surrounding Stefan Coram, how did he manage do things like assumption of Rhydon's identity, and disappear like he did to Duncan & Alaric?  On another note, I read a thread on the TKD and they discussed what I always believed that Alaric & Duncan were related and connected to the MacRories and why Camber would take a special interest in them because of that (besides their being deryni and working for much the same goals as Camber, his family and the original CC were)
I wish I would have joined this group years ago.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 25, 2016, 07:10:25 AM
Demercia,
I looked up your Flight Of The Heron book, my ancestors were "Jacobites" and my older sister told me years ago of reading some Joan Aiken books that were based on the 45 that she read as a kid because of my interest in that and other assorted history of Scotland/Ireland/Wales/Britain/Normandy etc
Thanks for your responses.
Slainte
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on May 25, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: Lochiel on May 25, 2016, 07:06:29 AM

I wish I would have joined this group years ago.

Me too! I found this site sometime in 2013 and how I rue those missed years.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Laurna on May 25, 2016, 01:25:00 PM
We are all here now,  That is what counts.
(And...umm.. Revanne... umm... Part 2... Gryphons are Brave...? ;D  I'll say no more.)
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on May 25, 2016, 03:43:28 PM
 ;)The Gryphon is flying busily around inside my head - I just need the time to pin him down on paper.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on May 25, 2016, 04:09:11 PM
Like Demercia I don't see Duncan confiding in Denis, even in the sanctity of the confessional, given that he has no idea that Denis is Deryni until the latter's revelation in HD, and to admit to being a Deryni priest,especially to a Bishop, is to court almost certain execution.

I go with the idea of Vera's parents telling the Arilans and also wonder if Jamyl might have taken the opportunity to confirm that Duncan  was Deryni sometime when they are both at court in Brion's reign. We know from the use of Deryni sniffers by Alroy's regents that a Deryni can tell the presence of another unless they are very well-shielded and a Deryni of Jamyl's calibre would surely have had likely difficulty in Duncan's case.

With regard to Stefan Coram, I've always thought that it was in fact St Camber who met with Duncan on the road to Coroth. If it was Stefan then he must have had powers beyond those that have previously been revealed of the Deryni, in order to know of Duncan's all but denial of his priestly vocation to Alaric. Also it seems more likely that Camber would challenge Duncan over that given his high regard for the priesthood revealed in SC ( even if he does have to be fairly heavily nudged by Joram). It was clearly Stefan at St Neot's but I'm inclined again to believe it was Camber at Kelson's coronation - given the way he showed up when Joram mystically crowned Javan in KJY.

Such fun speculating - thank you Lochiel.

Btw, like Demercia and a couple of others I lurk across the pond so very rarely make regular chat, but really appreciate the early chat once a month.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on May 25, 2016, 04:19:11 PM
I also meant to say that I'm sure I read somewhere,but can't remember where, that it was the CC who told Denis to get himself made auxiliary Bishop of Rhemuth in order to be able to safeguard Duncan through his ordination. Duncan was ordained at Easter 1113 so the CC must have known that he was Deryni some years before that.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 25, 2016, 06:21:44 PM
Your making me want to reread High Deryni, which I just read a few weeks ago!  Stefan Coram was able to fool Wencit with his Rhydion false identity which was something that Camber & Evaine were only able to do.  I wonder where did Stefan receive his training and did he have access to knowledge that others did not?  I'm still intrigued with his working outside the CC. 
I was just told by Evie that KK is working on a book about Killingford, wow that certainly is exciting news!
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Laurna on May 25, 2016, 09:55:02 PM
I personally believe that the real visitations from Camber are the more ethereal events. The crowning of the king. Kelson's night vigil when the specter of Camber asked to be admitted into his ward major and then passing himself into Kelson for the event the following day. The visitation on the beach at Coroth. The second pair of hands laying across Alaric's as he uses his Healing powers.

When ever there is talking or more substantial interaction between Camber and Alaric or Duncan, then I am of the opinion that this is Stefan. I believe Stefan could project his image across distance. He could have been miles away in a deep trance somewhwere when he spoke to Duncan on the road.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Evie on May 25, 2016, 11:46:13 PM
Loris' brief vision of Camber appearing to censure him for his persecution of Deryni would definitely have been the actual Camber, as Stefan would have been dead for several years by that time.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 26, 2016, 06:38:27 AM
I just finished rereading Quest for St Camber last night.  So was the visitation on the beach Camber himself, or some other secret Servant of St Camber?  I should go back through High Deryni and try and separate Stefan Coram from St Camber appearances.  I appreciate everyone's insight and thanks for everyone's input.  I am very intrigued with Stefan Coram and do believe besides being a noble person, to have access to knowledge and powers that the other CC members do not have.  I wonder if Denis Arilan was involved with his brother Jamyl with Stefan Coram, and perhaps others in a separate agenda outside the CC as the conversations between Jamyl & Stefan in the TKD reveal.  I would love to see KK do a short story on Stefan Coram (and some others)!
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: DesertRose on May 26, 2016, 10:56:06 AM
Quote from: Lochiel on May 26, 2016, 06:38:27 AM
I just finished rereading Quest for St Camber last night.  So was the visitation on the beach Camber himself, or some other secret Servant of St Camber?  I should go back through High Deryni and try and separate Stefan Coram from St Camber appearances.  I appreciate everyone's insight and thanks for everyone's input.  I am very intrigued with Stefan Coram and do believe besides being a noble person, to have access to knowledge and powers that the other CC members do not have.  I wonder if Denis Arilan was involved with his brother Jamyl with Stefan Coram, and perhaps others in a separate agenda outside the CC as the conversations between Jamyl & Stefan in the TKD reveal.  I would love to see KK do a short story on Stefan Coram (and some others)!

There's always fan fiction.  KK only has so much time and other obligations in her life (family, etc.), but she is very welcoming of fans playing in her sandbox as long as we do so respectfully.  :D

Not that I'm hinting you should go down the rabbit hole of writing fan fic.  Not me.  *pulls innocent look that probably fails miserably*
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Shiral on May 26, 2016, 01:19:29 PM
Of COURSE you're not suggesting that, DR...... ;)

Melissa
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: DesertRose on May 26, 2016, 03:41:09 PM
Quote from: Shiral on May 26, 2016, 01:19:29 PM
Of COURSE you're not suggesting that, DR...... ;)

Melissa

Wow, something besides my horns holding up my halo for once!   ;D
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Bynw on May 26, 2016, 10:07:59 PM
You should check some of the archives on deryni.net by Susan. She wrote on Stefan several times.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 27, 2016, 06:18:22 AM
BYNW,
Thanks for the tip, and I will.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 29, 2016, 08:55:01 AM
 Demercia said
"Your name took me back to my teens, "the flight of the heron" was probably the first book I fell in love with, not to mention its hero😀"
Ironically, one of the latest episodes of Outlander, had Claire back in Boston in the early 1950's and one of her students was asking her if she had ever seen a Great Blue Heron, and she replied that she had in Scotland, and they focused in on the picture for a few seconds which than "teleported" (wink) back in time to 1744.  I thought that was quite coincidental (or perhaps it was an allusion to your book?)
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on May 29, 2016, 09:05:59 AM
I am rereading "KKB" which I have only read once previous, when I came across this gem on page 8
"With an easing of the political climate in Gwynnedd, and having risen to the episcopate, he (Denis Arilan) secretly had  ordaining other Deryni priests--and there was a second bishop come to his priestly status without Arilan's help"