What other stories would you like to see in the world of the XII Kingdoms?
I'd love to see a trilogy based on the life of Queen Michaela perhaps "Queen Regent", "Queen Mother" and another one following the same pattern that I can't think of. These would cover the transition from the era of the "bad Regents" through to near the end of the first millenium.
A book of short stories each one set about a century after the other starting just after the events of KKB would be great too.
Stories could cover:
The rise of a Parliament of Nobles.
The rise of technology (possibly supported by human nobles as a balance to Deryni powers) this might lead to political parties of the aristocracy with mostly human technocrats with the support of an industrial merchant class on the one hand and a traditional aristocratic party supporting landowners on the other.
The inclusion of the merchantile class in politics.
The rise of the industrial working class.
Establishment of a constitutional monarchy.
Possibly the rise of humanism although the existance of real magic might predispose against that.
The Camberian Council meeting by video conference!
Visions of the XII Kingdoms in the 20th/21st Century
These would all result in various degrees of conflict. XII Kingdoms versions of Simon de Montfort, Oliver Cromwell, Robespierre, James Hargreaves etc.
Any thoughts?
I've said before that I'd like to see that universe's version of the Age of Exploration, the Renaissance, and the Reformation. Although there wasn't a papacy to rebel against, parts of the church were corrupt enough. (One thing, though, KK seems to have made even the worst of her clerics keep to their vows of celibacy, which was not the same as in our primary world; there doesn't seem to have been too much simony, either.)
about wat would happen several hundred years afterKelson, I think the deryni factor would impede technological progress in 2 possible ways:
1) there would be a cycle of Deryni rising and Deryni bashing that would make acceptance of new ideas like astronomy and medicine harder since there would be a stonger pattern of quashing them as black magic.
or
2) a benevolent society would develop that is primarily Deryni, agrarian, peaceful without the drive for new technology (like the early Star Trek episode where the Klingon-human war was stopped by the elders).
KK will never live long enough to write all the stories we'd like to see. :D
I'd like to see at least one more Kelson story, to tie up the Teymuraz angle.
I'm dying to know more about Orin and Jodotha, which she has said she wants to write.
I'd also like to see an Eleven Kingdoms Renaissance/Reformation time frame. I've been on a real-world Renaissance kick of late, reading biographies of Elizabeth I (of England) and Mary Queen of Scots.
I'm not so sure about a 20th/21st Century Gwynedd though; part of the fun, for me, is the historical atmosphere. That's just me though; I'm sure if KK wrote a 21st C. Gwynedd story, I'd read it. :)
I've read some fanfic set in the XX/XXIst C., and they really don't feel right for some reason. I can't really see this alternate world later than the XVIIIth C., really; that's where I think that a world where magic works would diverge too much from our own.
I've toyed with the idea of a Dernyi/Harry Potter crossover in which the Wizards of HP are the descendants of the Dernyi.
Quote from: DesertRose on April 15, 2009, 08:17:28 PM
KK will never live long enough to write all the stories we'd like to see. :D
Will she do what Anne McK did and designate a successor?
"I've toyed with the idea of a Dernyi/Harry Potter crossover in which the Wizards of HP are the descendants of the Dernyi."
Harry Potter is a children's fairy tale that while quite enjoyable and quite dark at the end is not intended to be serious (clue: chocolate cures)
the Deryni world is a serious in depth view of an alternate history that is also quite enjoyable,
The only thing in common is the use of magic and the good vs evil theme.
But if you wrote it I would read it
Quote from: DesertRose on April 15, 2009, 08:17:28 PM
KK will never live long enough to write all the stories we'd like to see. :D
The solution to that of course is to WRITE IT YOURSELF.
Quote from: tenworld on May 30, 2009, 04:24:56 PM
But if you wrote it I would read it
Unfortunately, I can't quite get past the Exposition stage, although I have come up with a scene in Lambeth Palace called "The Other Bishop," based on the canon scene "The Other Minister", in which Lord Cary gets a visit from the Wizardling Bishop.
Quote from: Bynw on May 30, 2009, 05:15:13 PM
Quote from: DesertRose on April 15, 2009, 08:17:28 PM
KK will never live long enough to write all the stories we'd like to see. :D
The solution to that of course is to WRITE IT YOURSELF.
I suppose I could. The problem is, I'd feel like I was stepping on toes, because I would try to write things that KK herself might still write. (Yes, I know, KK not only does not mind but actively encourages fanfiction; I'd still feel like I was out of my place.) With my one venture into Harry Potter fanfiction, I wrote something J. K. Rowling would NEVER write (at least not in the HP universe).
Please do write. I know that the one story that I wrote in KK's universe was actually helped along by Katherine. It was one of the first things I ever wrote and before I even started, I wrote Katherine to ask her if (1) my idea was okay and (2) would she mind if I wrote it. Her response was a (1) yes and (2) WRITE IT! She helped with the editing and made my story (which was actually a missing scene from QSC) all that much better. In fact, I still have a copy of my story with her red marks all over it. She gave me the encouragement I needed and I hope that my little story will encourage you to write.
I agree. Consider how many of Shakespeare's plays were reworkings of older materials. Going even further back, Aeschelus, Sophocles, and Euripides didn't make up the stories--they took the stories from Homer and Hesiod and reworked them. It is only in our modern times, with the introduction of copyright and trademark, that people have become afraid to play in other peoples' sandboxes.
What effect would a demonstrably working system of magic have on the development of science and technology?
One fictional example we have is Randall Garrett's "Lord Darcy" universe.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 15, 2009, 11:31:23 PM
What effect would a demonstrably working system of magic have on the development of science and technology?
I think that as magic is tied (in the most part) to race that you would either see and oppression of technology to sustain the power of a magic using ruling class or a rise of technology supported by a human nobility (either in opposition or cooperation with magic; or more probably swinging between these extremes).
I the latter case this would, I believe, bring about a rise in the middle classes leading to the establishment of some form of shared power between the nobility and the technocrats (like England in the Industrial Revolution) and possibly from this the rise of political parties.
Parliament could divide between the party of the Church and the "magical" nobility and the party of the Industrial magnates and the "non magical" nobility; at some point after that there would be the rise of a party supporting the Industrial Workers (and also possibly the dispossed agricultural workers who have lost their jobs due to the rise in mechanisation although I suspect they would tend to the Church/magic party).
So Kelson XVI Haldane in 2009 could have a Parliament where the "Lords" are divided between the industrialists and the pro magic factions and the "Burgers/Commons" divided between the Industrial Workers, the Industrial Magnates, and the dispossessed agricultural workers...
lucky him!!
Quote from: Aquinas on June 16, 2009, 11:47:12 AM
So Kelson XVI Haldane in 2009 could have a Parliament where the "Lords" are divided between the industrialists and the pro magic factions and the "Burgers/Commons" divided between the Industrial Workers, the Industrial Magnates, and the dispossessed agricultural workers...
lucky him!!
This sounds really interesting. Especially if you combine it with that world's "age of discovery"---would Gwynned have an overseas empire like many of the European countries did? In the times we have read about they haven't been exactly a naval power.
Well the Hortic states are the obvious choice for a Portuguese/Dutch style "Empire of Trade". Gwynedd did manage to defeat the "Moors" under St Bearand at sea so there must be some ship building going on maybe they'll have the British Empire and the Torenethi can have the Spanish.
Probably depends on who industrialises first and therefore, I suspect, on who is less dependant on magic.
IIRC, in our world European imperial expansion preceded industrialization. It started in the 1500's, and industrialization didn't start until the 1700s. Either way, we're several centuries away from that.
Which country is most likely to have a French-style Revolution, with Royal heads on pikes? The Torenthi royal family probably deserves it most, but I'm betting on Llanned & Howicce, given their convoluted succession laws.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 17, 2009, 08:24:21 PM
Which country is most likely to have a French-style Revolution, with Royal heads on pikes? The Torenthi royal family probably deserves it most, but I'm betting on Llanned & Howicce, given their convoluted succession laws.
The country with the monarchy that is oblivious to what goes on outside the palace or castle walls! :)
Quote from: Elkhound on June 17, 2009, 08:24:21 PM
IIRC, in our world European imperial expansion preceded industrialization. It started in the 1500's, and industrialization didn't start until the 1700s. Either way, we're several centuries away from that.
True, I should have said the first country to develop as a nation state.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 17, 2009, 08:24:21 PM
Which country is most likely to have a French-style Revolution, with Royal heads on pikes? The Torenthi royal family probably deserves it most, but I'm betting on Llanned & Howicce, given their convoluted succession laws.
If we have a "French" Revolution and Terror does that mean we get to play with Napoleon and his professional army too! Now that would be a fun story. Tallyrand/Fouche as Deryni!
Quote from: Aquinas on June 22, 2009, 06:29:01 PM
If we have a "French" Revolution and Terror does that mean we get to play with Napoleon and his professional army too! Now that would be a fun story. Tallyrand/Fouche as Deryni!
Can we have an "American" one, too? Washington might not be Deryni, but Franklin certainly, and perhaps Jefferson.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 22, 2009, 08:33:46 PM
[Can we have an "American" one, too? Washington might not be Deryni, but Franklin certainly, and perhaps Jefferson.
You'd have to have a stupid colonial government for that one to work hope the Haldanes don't get that bad! Or maybe Torenth gets the north of the New World. Franklin certainly tho possibly tending to Lewys ap Norfal type!
The influence of classical ideas on revolution in our world was very marked, but interestingly no reference to the greatness of Greece/Rome in KK's world so possibly no idealising of democracy as the best form of government and therefore no "French" or "American" revolutions just lots of 100yr/30yr etc wars dynasties overthrowing each other.
Quote from: Aquinas on June 23, 2009, 07:01:32 PM
The influence of classical ideas on revolution in our world was very marked, but interestingly no reference to the greatness of Greece/Rome in KK's world so possibly no idealising of democracy as the best form of government and therefore no "French" or "American" revolutions just lots of 100yr/30yr etc wars dynasties overthrowing each other.
But KK has only had us in the Middle Ages, when 'the glory that was Greece/the grandure that was Rome' was largely forgotten. The XI Kingdoms haven't had their Renaissance and Baroque yet; we're still in 'a thousand years without a bath.'
The influence of the Roman and Greek worlds on the Middle Ages was quite marked.
Roman Law influenced (to the extent of being quoted verbatim) both the "barbarian" law codes and canon law and Greek philosophy/astronomy/medicine (admittedly via Arabic translations) was hugely influential not least on people like Thomas Aquinas. Roman titles were used and some Roman systems remained.
What interests me from the Codex is that Rome never really fell it just gave up and the Byzantine Empire seems to be chugging along just fine (unless we're due a Mehmet the Conquerer or Suleman the Magnificent soon) so possibly these cultures have lost the mystery that made them so popular in the rennaissance as you can't rebirth a culture that never really died.
Maybe I just don't want to see the XII Kingdoms turning into a bland modern democracy ;)
Completely off topic, Festil and I are in the process of developing a story loosely based on what the 1381 Peasants' Revolt in England would have looked like in Gwynedd. So far, we have decided to set the story in 1366 (in one of the introductory parts of the 2nd Edition Codex, a "Great Fire of Rhemuth" is mentioned as having occurred in 1366). I am working on character development for the leaders of the revolt and Festil is working on the Camberian Council and the Haldane court of the period.
So, there, Bynw! I am writing it myself. :D
Quote from: Aquinas on June 24, 2009, 07:41:25 PM
The influence of the Roman and Greek worlds on the Middle Ages was quite marked.
Roman Law influenced (to the extent of being quoted verbatim) both the "barbarian" law codes and canon law and Greek philosophy/astronomy/medicine (admittedly via Arabic translations) was hugely influential not least on people like Thomas Aquinas. Roman titles were used and some Roman systems remained.
Marble sculptures were sent to the limekilns. Bronze sculptures were melted down. Books were used as kindling. The aquaducts and other public works were not maintained because there weren't any engineers left who knew how to do it. Ancient medicine and surgery were forgotten and such medical treatment as there existed was relegated to midwives and herbalists with no scientific understanding. I was a Classics major and I studied archaeology in Italy; I saw how after the barbarian invasions civilization collapsed completely, and western Europe returned to chaos and old night. And this was in Italy, the center of civilization at the time; it was worse in Britain, on the periphery of the Empire. As I said--"A thousand years without a bath," until Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched.
I would like to see KK publish something new soon, and hopefully it will include the 'discovery' of how to switch back on all the Deryni who were Switched Off during the persecutions. It would be fascinating to see how many they could find who had healing powers and bring back the old schools.
They need to discover ALL of the ruins in Grecotha, and possibly find that someone has still been living where they took Cinhil to train him to be king. There are lots of loose ends. Where did all the monks at St. Neot's go? Where did all the Micheline's go? And what did they do when they got where they were going? More schools? Where they could be asked back to Gwyenned?
lots of questions!!
Quote from: Jodotha on June 27, 2009, 08:08:38 PM
I would like to see KK publish something new soon, and hopefully it will include the 'discovery' of how to switch back on all the Deryni who were Switched Off during the persecutions. It would be fascinating to see how many they could find who had healing powers and bring back the old schools.
I'm sorry, that's to much waving the magic wand putting things back where they were. "The only way out is through."
Quote from: Jodotha on June 27, 2009, 08:08:38 PM
They need to discover ALL of the ruins in Grecotha, and possibly find that someone has still been living where they took Cinhil to train him to be king. There are lots of loose ends. Where did all the monks at St. Neot's go? Where did all the Micheline's go? And what did they do when they got where they were going? More schools? Where they could be asked back to Gwyenned?
lots of questions!!
We already know where the Michalines went; they became the Knights of the Anvil, but that group mixed with the Muslims too much--they did what the Templars were in our world falsely accused of. (Part of the accusations of the Templars was that they worshiped an idol called 'Baphomet', which is an obvious corruption of 'Mohammed;' and yes, I know that Muslims do not worship Mohammed--but in Midaeval Europe people thought they did.)
Another good story would be about Festil's invasion of Gwynedd and Aidan's (Daniel Draper) early years and how he dealt with the death of his family.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 26, 2009, 10:48:26 PM
As I said--"A thousand years without a bath," until Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched.
I'm a Medieval historian BTW and I have to disagree (otherwise where is the discussion!). The extent of the Dark Ages is over estimated. Remember by the end of the Empire in the West things were fairly crap anyway: Constantine had to recycle old sculpture for his arch because there were no sculptors of sufficient skill to carve new ones and the Empire limped on another 150yrs after him.
Yes the invaders did destroy much of the infrastructure but recent (ish) research shows a much greater survival than had been thought (cf Wendy Davis and Peter Heather). The idea that the invaders came along and "switched off the lights" for the next thousand years misses the fact that the Empire itself had been busy switching them off for at least 150 if not 200 yrs before.
It was politically prudent for Charlemagne to edit written history when he became Emperor in 800 this involved collecting all manuscripts that he could find and having the ones he wanted to keep copied into his new script and binning all the rest. Consequently we only know of many texts from references in those that survived the purges.
I should also mention the monastic scriptoria, the universities (even the Cathedral School of Aachen) which taught the Classical
trivium and
quadrivium in addition to medicine (esp at Bologna) as well as Canon and Civil Law, International Banking (admittedly not til 11th century), experimental science (Friar Bacon, Albertus Magnus), philosophy (Aquinas, Albertus Magnus(again), Marsillus of Padua, John of Paris etc), Poetry, Abbot Suger and the Gothic Cathedrals in addition to the Law Codes of the Visgoths and various English Codices that all contain elements of Roman Law.
Shall we just agree to differ as greater minds than ours have argued this for many years? :)
Quote from: Aquinas on June 24, 2009, 07:41:25 PM
The influence of the Roman and Greek worlds on the Middle Ages was quite marked.
What interests me from the Codex is that Rome never really fell it just gave up and the Byzantine Empire seems to be chugging along just fine (unless we're due a Mehmet the Conquerer or Suleman the Magnificent soon) so possibly these cultures have lost the mystery that made them so popular in the rennaissance as you can't rebirth a culture that never really died.
Maybe I just don't want to see the XII Kingdoms turning into a bland modern democracy ;)
Me neither! I might want to live in a well-ordered society or what passes for one where lights go on and guns don't go off, but I want my
fiction juicy with intrigue.
I myself am curious about Bremagne.....Katherine has gone so far as to describe it as a sort of cross between France and Spain. So I'm wondering if life there was somewhat like the society in the part of Spain known as Al Andalus; where Christians, Muslims and Jews lived in (relative) harmony. And where life was quite civilized and advanced for a medieval society.
Melissa
Quote from: thistlethorne on June 02, 2009, 08:25:34 PM
Please do write. I know that the one story that I wrote in KK's universe was actually helped along by Katherine. It was one of the first things I ever wrote and before I even started, I wrote Katherine to ask her if (1) my idea was okay and (2) would she mind if I wrote it. Her response was a (1) yes and (2) WRITE IT! She helped with the editing and made my story (which was actually a missing scene from QSC) all that much better. In fact, I still have a copy of my story with her red marks all over it. She gave me the encouragement I needed and I hope that my little story will encourage you to write.
Can we see it???
I second this. My HP/Deryni story will never be fit to see the light of day; the only part that I can salvage is the ABC's conversation with "the Other Archbishop"--a scene in Lambeth Palace between Lord Carey and the Most Rev. Wulfstan Longbottom, Archbishop for the City of the Legions (yes; another of Neville's great-uncles).
Resurrecting an old thread, but I'd love to see more of Richard FitzWilliam. We see enough of him in DR and DC to intrigue me, and then he's gone, but it sounds like he could have a story in him. Anyone want to write me a Richard FitzWilliam story? (I can't write fiction to save myself BTW, so don't suggest I do it!)
Ooh, I liked Richard, but can't think for a good story for him off the top of my head. Then again, it will probably cudgel me upside the head on my drive home, or wait until I'm in the shower, as story ideas tend to do.
I want to see the Bishop's Heir have an heir. Which means that young Dhugal will have to settle down with a lass eventually, rather than just stealing kisses in shadowy alcoves at Court dances. :D
But here's a question I have which, although it wouldn't lead to a very important story in the scheme of things, still makes me really curious about how to fill in the gap. If I'm remembering correctly, right before Rothana marries Conall, she says goodbye to her dreams of being Kelson's Queen and throws the ring he gave her (the one he'd married Sidana with) into the Rhemuth Castle moat. But then three years later, in KKB, Kelson is wearing this ring again, and it's not permanently destroyed until something like midway through the book. Am I remembering this all wrong, or is that basically what happened? Because if it is, my question is, how did Kelson get that ring back? Did he go mucking through the castle moat for it (or, more likely, send someone to do so)? If so, that bespeaks a certain level of emotional desperation, doesn't it? I'd really love to know the story of what happened between Rothana's getting rid of the ring and Kelson's regaining it.
Amazing what a perusal of the Codex will suggest:
1) Teymuraz escapes and marries into the Byzantine imperial family. (I'm with DesertRose on this one.) Suppose he tries what his ancestor Festil did? (There was that Byzantun conquest circa the third century, much like Torenthi ambitions later fulfilled by the Festils.) This could be a theme for a whole other trilogy. Can the new rapprochment between Gwynedd and Torenth survive the tensions such an assault would bring? Will Teymuraz and his followers be able to sow discord and rekindle the bad feelings from the past two or three centuries? Can Kelson and Liam-Lajos hold their alliance together in the face of such discord?
2) There's a Transfer Portal in the master bedroom at Sheele, set to work only for blood relatives of Evaine and Rhys Thuryn. Say Duncan is asked to give Extreme Unction to someone in that room, and he feels the faint tingle. Morgan is set to chair a kind of reconciliation commission aimed at either restoring Deryni estates or compensating Deryni owners (that's how Barrett and Jehana get a place of their own). Morgan and his team do some research and learn the Thuryns owned Sheele. Arilan is consulted for his Portal expertise, which leads to more research. Morgan and Duncan learn that they and theirs are descendants of Evaine and Rhys (hence their healing abilities), and therefore descendants of Camber! One or both of them get places on the Camberian Council (only right IMHO, since they were so badly dissed by that same council in the Chronicles). Along the way, research indicates that Healing is a minority gift, and they learn that healing orders in Camber's day discouraged Healers from celibacy (per Deryni Magic), so Dhugal is prompted to get serious in his search for a wife. Oh, and Briony manifests healing like Evaine and Rhys' daughter Jerusha. Sounds like enough there for a book...
Quote from: BalanceTheEnergies on June 09, 2010, 01:25:11 PM
Along the way, research indicates that healing is a minority gift, and they learn that healing orders in Camber's day discouraged Healers from celibacy, so Dhugal is prompted to get serious in his search for a wife.
Unfortunately, that's inconsistent with the entire Gabrilite order, though it would've made sense-- the relative rarity of female Healers (and iirc some of the notes in
Deryni Magic) certainly suggests a recessive sex-linked factor, which each individual Gabrilite's celibacy would've removed from the gene pool, except via collateral transmission through his mother and sisters (and of course any Healer brothers who remained in the laity).
The controller probably isn't a simple, single on/off switch, though-- there are several matters of relative degree involved, ranging from overall strength of Deryni powers to the specific power-blocking ability.
Quote from: wombat1138 on June 09, 2010, 02:57:51 PMUnfortunately, that's inconsistent with the entire Gabrilite order, though it would've made sense-- the relative rarity of female Healers (and iirc some of the notes in Deryni Magic) certainly suggests a recessive sex-linked factor, which each individual Gabrilite's celibacy would've removed from the gene pool, except via collateral transmission through his mother and sisters (and of course any Healer brothers who remained in the laity).
I haven't my books here, but I do remember a passage that among the student healers who came to St. Neot's for training "only those in whom the religious vocation burned most strongly" were encouraged to stay; others were encouraged to leave, marry, and make more healers.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 10, 2010, 09:30:02 AM
I haven't my books here, but I do remember a passage that among the student healers who came to St. Neot's for training "only those in whom the religious vocation burned most strongly" were encouraged to stay; others were encouraged to leave, marry, and make more healers.
Maybe it's in
Deryni Magic, which I haven't yet covered in my series re-read-- I do remember that it had several chapters/stories specifically devoted to Healers' training. I'll keep an eye out for the passage when I go back through.
Quote from: Evie on June 07, 2010, 04:09:18 PM
right before Rothana marries Conall, she says goodbye to her dreams of being Kelson's Queen and throws the ring he gave her (the one he'd married Sidana with) into the Rhemuth Castle moat. But then three years later, in KKB, Kelson is wearing this ring again, and it's not permanently destroyed until something like midway through the book. Am I remembering this all wrong, or is that basically what happened? Because if it is, my question is, how did Kelson get that ring back? Did he go mucking through the castle moat for it (or, more likely, send someone to do so)? If so, that bespeaks a certain level of emotional desperation, doesn't it? I'd really love to know the story of what happened between Rothana's getting rid of the ring and Kelson's regaining it.
Kelson was still sunk pretty heavily in emotional desperation up through the first half or so of KKB. The ring's recovery is somewhat explained the first time it's mentioned (p 14 of the hardback): "the ring she had cast into the moat before her marriage to another, believing him dead-- recovered that next summer, through no little exertion of the power of several of his Deryni associates." Presumably they went scrying for it, in a similar way to the MacRories retrieving the Haldana necklace after it was accidentally dumped down the garderobe. At least if it went into the main moat and stayed there, no one would have to go wading around the garderobe exit zone the way Camber had to.
I do wonder if the ring would've had a devastating emotional charge attached to it from Sidana's death, judging from the impressions that were stored in Henry Istelyn's bishop's ring. Sidana didn't wear her ring for very long and it probably hadn't been made from another piece of Camber's altar plate, but it had been made by a Deryni artisan, after all.
Quote from: wombat1138 on June 11, 2010, 08:39:02 PM
I do wonder if the ring would've had a devastating emotional charge attached to it from Sidana's death, judging from the impressions that were stored in Henry Istelyn's bishop's ring. Sidana didn't wear her ring for very long and it probably hadn't been made from another piece of Camber's altar plate, but it had been made by a Deryni artisan, after all.
Ack! Yeah, I can't imagine something that devastating not having
some psychic impact, though it's probably a good thing Sidana didn't wear it any longer than she did, or it would have been a wonder that Kelson could have borne to wear the thing at all, much less for as long as he did. I mean, consider Duncan's reaction to putting Istelyn's ring on his finger for the first time....
Yeah, but Istelyn's ring was some kind of Camberian relic, so it might have been...erm...rather charged even into Duncan's day, and then for it to come away from Istelyn's body the way it did would only have added to the psychic dissonance.
True, but Alaric and Duncan seemed to be expecting that putting on that ring for the first time would be very unpleasant, even before they knew it had a Camberian connection, so that would seem to indicate they expected that the violence that Istelyn had experienced would leave a psychic imprint. It having been associated with Camber first just added to the impressions they picked up from it. But length of usage has some influence too, I think. In QSC, when Duncan and Alaric are trying to find Kelson and Dhugal, they think about trying to track them by focusing on their Camberian medals, but then think those won't work because Kelson and Dhugal hadn't had them long enough, so they focused on Kelson's ring instead. (Not knowing, of course, it was either with Rothana or in the moat by that time. I have to wonder if they managed to pick up any impressions from it, and how confused they must have been if they did and it was entirely in the wrong direction from where they were searching!)
OK, here's a situation that occured to me last night. You know how, when Kelson has a new squire learning the ropes, one of the first things he does is set controls in the lad's mind so that confidential information won't be remembered, much less repeated? Well, OK, what happens the first time Kelson (or Dhugal, or whichever Deryni is doing this) decides to set the controls on the new squire, only they unexpectedly discover shields? And the new squire immediately realizes what's going on, having detected the subtle mental probing, because he, too, is a secret Deryni?
Discuss. :D
Um, can I sleep on that one? LOL. Seriously, getting late, and I've just had Alaric and Randolph arguing morality in my head, so I'm not up to that one just now. I look forward to you exploring it, though! ;)
If anyone would like to tell me how the Hort of Orsal's son gets on in Corwyn, I'd be obliged, too. I've been moderately concerned for him for many years past now.
There's a sentence or two in KKB, I think, in which it's implied that the experience didn't exactly go swimmingly, since the boy wasn't really suited for the martial sort of life, but that Alaric managed to get a hint across to the Hort of Orsal that perhaps he'd be best suited as a scholar (or some such?), and so now the boy is on a path that's better suited for his aptitude and interests.
Ah ok, I have to confess to only having read KKB once, so it's all a bit hazy. I am on a big re-read ATM and am up to HD so a way to go yet. I'm then going back to the Camber era. I've read the Camber x3 two or three times, but have only managed the Heirs x3 once. I did like them, but it's taken me a while to be able to face them again. I hope he's OK. I was taught at school that first son was the heir, second son was the soldier, third son was the priest, but the principle obviously didn't work here.
Quote from: Evie on June 24, 2010, 03:43:53 PM
OK, here's a situation that occured to me last night. You know how, when Kelson has a new squire learning the ropes, one of the first things he does is set controls in the lad's mind so that confidential information won't be remembered, much less repeated? Well, OK, what happens the first time Kelson (or Dhugal, or whichever Deryni is doing this) decides to set the controls on the new squire, only they unexpectedly discover shields? And the new squire immediately realizes what's going on, having detected the subtle mental probing, because he, too, is a secret Deryni?
Discuss. :D
OK, so I can't resist!
First reaction is that I'm not happy with Kelson casually meddling with people's minds anyway. If it needs doing it should be done with the foreknowledge and consent of the subject. I noticed Kenneth asking Alyce to set controls in him in CM, which is fair play. That's partly why I wasn't entirely comfortable with what Alaric did in the Declan story, but it kept coming out that way, so I went with it.
Second reaction is that the squire would maybe attempt to avoid becoming Kelson's squire. I know it's the "top job" and you are probably being fast tracked if you get it (looking forward to CM3 to see the reaction to Alaric going straight in as Brion's page, as Donal said he would in CM - that could make life uncomfortable for him) but if you were secret Deryni wouldn't you avoid having to be in daily contact with Kelson/Dhugal/Alaric/Duncan as the whole inner circle there, bar Nigel, is Deryni. Unknown Deryni would be a different kettle of fish - that could be a heckuva shock on both sides.
Given the discussion that Morgan and Duncan have with Cardiel (in TBH, I think?) about the ethical considerations involved in tampering with people's minds and memory, and the fact that Kelson's ethical thinking would've been highly shaped by Morgan, at the very least, and that Duncan's his confessor, my guess is that Kelson only sets controls in his squires because they're sometimes required to be present when Kelson has to discuss highly confidential state secrets and/or dangerous and potentially deadly (given the prejudice of the times) Deryni secrets. He'd probably consider the controls to be necessary not only to protect the secrets themselves, but also to protect the squires. After all, what they don't remember, they can't be forced to divulge to others, whether they be hostile bishops such as Loris, or hostile Deryni such as Charissa. True, it would be better if he could ask for consent first, but when one of those secrets happens to be "The King has powers that are more Deryni-like than even the average empowered Haldane before him," well, it might be harder to broach the topic of consent with a human squire who might have reservations about serving a half-Deryni King. One would think that such a squire wouldn't be serving in the Haldane Court in the first place, but then again, do young boys really have much of a choice when they're tapped for the King's service? So it would be possible for someone to rise in the page/squire ranks on merit, I'd think, and then get to the point of being so good they're picked to be in Kelson's personal service...and if they balk then once they find out some of his secrets, and decide this wasn't what they signed on for, that would be a major security breach. So I can see why Kelson might think this is a case of "It's easier to ask for forgiveness rather than permission."
I wasn't aware that Kelson actually did set controls in new squires? Can you point me to where he does this - or where even Morgan does it? They generally seem to have discussions in private, without any pages/ squires present.
I can't give a page number, since I was listening to the audiobook, but an example is in QFSC, I think it's after Kelson's and Dhugal's knighting and the ensuing festivities. They've gone upstairs to Kelson's apartment afterwards, Morgan and Duncan have taken their leave, and Kelson and Dhugal are alone in Kelson's apartment with an overly eager new squire who is being overly solicitous. Kelson knows he won't be able to have a truly private conversation with Dhugal under those circumstances, so he sets the controls in his squire for him to finish his chore (boot polishing, I think?) and then go straight to sleep, and to never remember or repeat any details of conversations he shouldn't overhear. Or something of that sort. He shows Dhugal how to do this in case Dhugal should ever need to do it with his own squires, and he says something to the squire about this being his standard practice with all new squires. Or anyway, the scene runs something along those lines, but I don't happen to have my .mp3 player with me at the moment to rewind it to that scene and double-check the particulars.
Quote from: Alkari on June 24, 2010, 10:03:51 PM
I wasn't aware that Kelson actually did set controls in new squires? Can you point me to where he does this - or where even Morgan does it? They generally seem to have discussions in private, without any pages/ squires present.
The incident is in
The Quest for Saint Camber. at the end of the chapter about the knighting feast. Kelson sets controls in his new squire, Ivo Hepburn, insuring that he won't repeat what he hears the king discuss in private. Which brings up the moral question of compelling loyalty that Ivo had already offered freely. Presumably, Nigel finds Ivo promising, to have assigned him to his royal nephew with the honor of serving the King directly. Something Nigel would hardly have done if he felt Ivo was a natural blabbermouth. Compelling Ivo's discretion rathter starts with the assumption of possible wrong-doing rather than giving the kid a chance to
prove his loyalty and discretion.
I wonder if Araxie will make the same requirements of her future ladies in waiting, or if she'll give them a chance, first. Granted, some conversations would be so sensitive as to require a few extra precautions, but surely those can be handled on a case by case basis. And it's always a royal prerogative to send attendants out of the room when absolute confidentiality is necessary.
Melissa
Thanks for this - will go and re-read the chapter. The other incident I thought of is when Richenda sets controls on Payne and the other boys in TKJ when Kelson takes Liam and Morag as hostages. Richenda sets them for protection against interference by Morag, so the boys will come straight to her if there is any attempt made to control or use them.
Of course, that situation isn't exactly parallel to the Ivo Hepburn one. Richenda has no reason to expect that the boys would blab secrets or whatever: she does it to protect both them and Gwynnedd generally against any attempts by Morag to control the boys and possibly escape.
No wonder Morgan takes Brendan along as his page/squire though - not only is it good training to serve the Duke and move in the highest circles, but certainly by KKB Brendan already has a lot of Deryni training and really doesn't need any controls.
Remember also that controls are sometimes also set for training purposes. Alyce (and presumably Marie as well?) had controls set in her mind by Jessamy (or for Jessamy?), which were supposed to be neutralized before she reached adulthood but apparently weren't, since that's how Jessamy was attempting to ensure that Donal would be able to control Alyce's mind so he could father a child on her without her knowledge. Of course, since Alyce's priest/Deryni tutor also had training controls, he detected Jessamy's mind tampering and was able to reset Alyce's controls to give Alyce override power.
But getting back to the original topic, I don't know that Alyce was necessarily given the option to consent when she was a child and the controls were originally set. They may also have been set in place as much for her protection (like the ones Richenda set in the Haldane children) as for the adults' convenience in training her. It could be that Kelson sees the control setting in his squires in a similar way, especially if Ivo was younger than 14, and therefore considered a minor. (I.E., yes, he's old enough to serve as a squire, therefore probably old enough to understand the implications of consent, but was he of age to give legal consent yet?)
Quote from: Evie on June 24, 2010, 03:43:53 PM
... You know how, when Kelson has a new squire learning the ropes, one of the first things he does is set controls in the lad's mind so that confidential information won't be remembered, much less repeated? Well, OK, what happens the first time Kelson (or Dhugal, or whichever Deryni is doing this) decides to set the controls on the new squire, only they unexpectedly discover shields? And the new squire immediately realizes what's going on, having detected the subtle mental probing, because he, too, is a secret Deryni?
Discuss. :D
I like this as a plot point in a bigger work. After two centuries of hiding, many Deryni will likely maintain the discretion of the past, at least while they wait and see if the climate for Deryni continues to improve. There would be some tense moments until the squire's loyalty is established. The Deryni-human reconciliation Kelson is after will take some time, so such a scenario is quite likely. Such an incident could feature in a post-KKB book describing this reconciliation.
Of course, there could also be a spy inserted into the court as a squire by Teymuraz and his Byzantine supporters. Think of it as deep cover, with the squire allowed to serve for years, progress to knighthood, earn some other position(s) of trust, then attempt a
coup d'état.
There's also a possible variation of this plot point. Recall those who had their powers "turned off" during Revan's baptizer cult, and suppose one of their descendants becomes Kelson's latest squire. What will the descendants' minds feel like to a trained Deryni? Surely another highly-trained Deryni would be able to detect the "switch" Rhys Thuryn found. (Perhaps Joram had time to leave a memoir that could guide later generations.) How would such rediscovered Deryni feel about their powers? Will the shiral test Camber and Evaine used on Cinhil make a comeback?
Quote from: Evie on June 24, 2010, 10:48:50 PM
Remember also that controls are sometimes also set for training purposes....
But getting back to the original topic, I don't know that Alyce was necessarily given the option to consent when she was a child and the controls were originally set. They may also have been set in place as much for her protection (like the ones Richenda set in the Haldane children) as for the adults' convenience in training her. It could be that Kelson sees the control setting in his squires in a similar way, especially if Ivo was younger than 14, and therefore considered a minor. (I.E., yes, he's old enough to serve as a squire, therefore probably old enough to understand the implications of consent, but was he of age to give legal consent yet?)
This makes a certain sense for several reasons. Deryni ritual tradition includes a Naming ceremony usually performed at age 8 (though Morgan and Duncan had theirs at age 4, in light of Donal's rushed timetable). Recall that the ceremony establishes that the child has a basic understanding of right and wrong (oh how I adore Morgan's answer to the question), but it doesn't declare the child to be fully adult—it reads like an intermediate step on the way to adulthood.
No doubt some controls are set by Deryni parents in their children (possibly at this time or augmented by this ritual) to manage the child's training and prevent injuries or accidents during a physical growth spurt and/or puberty. [We know the powers are tied to the physical body, in part because their use is physically tiring (recall Morgan wearing himself out in the Chronicles).] What is done at that ritual could then be used later by the parent, or another mentor the child has later on, to create or modify these controls. No doubt there is also a way to relinquish those controls in a coming-of-age ritual (which Jessamy failed to do in Alyce's case, for her own reasons).
The post of squire is itself an intermediate step en route to the knightly accolade, and Kelson would be acting
in loco parentis towards his squires, as well as their overlord and king. (Effectively, he delegated this authority to Nigel as his father had done with all the royal pages and squires.) It seems likely that Kelson is working on the parent/mentor principle in establishing these controls, as well as protecting both himself and the squires from outside coercion, magical or otherwise.
There is a grey area, given that the age of squires coincides with that of legal adulthood (14). I submit that this is addressed in the loyalty and esprit de corps first inculcated in the the pages under Nigel's tutelage. Bear in mind that this is a feudal society, not a democracy that trumpets individualism (like the modern U.S.A.). Also note that the Haldanes maintained their powers are distinct from those of the Deryni and evidence of their Divine Right to rule. Surely royal pages are socialized to expect such control, and to cede it to their overlord, so that the squires they become are prepared for it when it happens as part of their service. Thus, for Ivo and the rest, there is no issue.
Quote from: BalanceTheEnergies on July 19, 2010, 12:41:26 AM
Snip
There's also a possible variation of this plot point. Recall those who had their powers "turned off" during Revan's baptizer cult, and suppose one of their descendants becomes Kelson's latest squire. What will the descendants' minds feel like to a trained Deryni? Surely another highly-trained Deryni would be able to detect the "switch" Rhys Thuryn found. (Perhaps Joram had time to leave a memoir that could guide later generations.) How would such rediscovered Deryni feel about their powers? Will the shiral test Camber and Evaine used on Cinhil make a comeback?
It's a long time since I read those books, but wasn't it only healers who could find the switch? And maybe not even all of them?
Happy to be corrected if I misremember :)
That is correct. Only some Healers could block.
True, but bear in mind we have a number of Healers in the 12th century. If they are descended from Evaine and Rhys Thuryn, and if the skill has a genetic component, they are a pool of potential candidates for possession of the knack. It may even be that one or more of them rediscovers it as they experiment while trying to study and understand the Healing gift. Given the way in which Thuryn discovered it in the first place, the most likely occassion would be treating a Deryni with a head injury.
i would love to read the story where Duncan or Morgan (both descendants of Rhys) re-discover the blocking talent and use it on Arilan or one of the other snooty CC members.
I would like to know what happened to Warin de Grey. He just disappeared after Wencit and Loris were taken down.
Quote from: derynifanatic64 on August 13, 2010, 06:43:54 PMI would like to know what happened to Warin de Grey. He just disappeared after Wencit and Loris were taken down.
Yes; a most interesting person. We are informed that the "has an unusual mind, but is not Deryni." But if he isn't, what is he? He's not Deryni, but he seems to be able to do some of the things that Deryni can do (healing most of all, but IIRC [I haven't the books with me] a few other things as well; and perhaps more, except that he either (a) doesn't know how or (b) has never seen fit to try.)
Quote from: tenworld on July 19, 2010, 03:02:12 PM
i would love to read the story where Duncan or Morgan (both descendants of Rhys) re-discover the blocking talent and use it on Arilan or one of the other snooty CC members.
I would love to find out exactly the way that Duncan and Morgan are related to Rhys and Evaine. *All* the ways that they are related!
Camber does seem to appear to Duncan and Morgan quite a bit, especially when they are using their healing abilities. Those extra pair of hands that always seems to help them when they heal people are either Camber's or Rhys'--who knows?
I always thought it was Camber's hands - even tho he did not have healing power, he could add Deryni energy to a a healer's work.
There is no indication that Rhys is still around as Camber is (in his suspended state), unless you believe it is Rhys as a saint.
Morgan and Duncan are probably descended from Rhys by more than one path, based on all the intermarrying. And Kelson is also a descendant too. There was a web page tracing all these but I have lost that link, and I dont think it was up to date with the last book.
Quote from: tenworld on May 31, 2011, 11:46:19 AMMorgan and Duncan are probably descended from Rhys by more than one path, based on all the intermarrying. And Kelson is also a descendant too. There was a web page tracing all these but I have lost that link, and I dont think it was up to date with the last book.
Given how much the aristocracy are given to marrying within a small circle of families, they're probably related more than one way.
Living in West Virginia I know
all about that; one thing that Royalty and Rednecks have in common.
Quote from: tenworld on May 31, 2011, 11:46:19 AM
There was a web page tracing all these but I have lost that link, and I dont think it was up to date with the last book.
I think that you are talking about Rebecca's Web site - http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/
It only has information pre-
King Kelson's Bride, but includes the first
Codex.
Kathleen
thanks
If I read the charts right, Morgan and Duncan are descended from Rhysel, but the Tieg link ends with his marriage. So the healing function presumably came from him but isnt shown here.
Maybe the Healer's gift is passed down in some more complicated way, though. What if you have to inherit not just one, but two different traits in order to be a Healer? One of those traits, in order for the Healing gift to be expressed, would have to be the regular Deryni trait, but the other one would interact with it to add the gift of healing to the mix. I can even imagine a human carrying the healing trait all unknowing, but managing to pass it down the line to descendants who might discover it if they were also descended from Deryni. (For instance, there might be a human father who unknowingly carries the trait required to become a Healer, who marries a Deryni woman and sires a child who later discovers he has the Healing gift as well as ordinary Deryni powers.) And if it's a recessive trait, then it might be passed on and expressed even more infrequently.
That would explain someone like Warin deGrey.
Yes, it could. Although, since Warin isn't Deryni, what would be activating his healing gifts in that case?
OK, here's a thought:
human + rare Healer trait inherited from one parent = carrier of healing potential
human + rare Healer trait inherited from both parents (slim chance of it happening, but not impossible) = human with healing gifts (i.e. Warin and any others like him)
Deryni + healer trait (regardless of whether it's inherited on one or both sides of the family) = Deryni healer
Maybe the Deryni powers just augment the healing gift and allow it to be expressed more easily, but if you're that extremely rare human whose parents are both carriers, you can access the gift even without Deryni powers. Warin is also described as having high charisma, which is also very characteristic of Deryni, but of course not limited to Deryni.
Then again, Warin could actually have a divine gift, and just totally misunderstood his calling because of his anti-Deryni hang-ups. One thing I like about the books is that it leaves the matter open-ended so that individual readers are free to puzzle it out as they wish. :D
Quote from: Elkhound on June 01, 2011, 12:34:43 PM
That would explain someone like Warin deGrey.
I've often thought there's another explanation for Warin de Grey. Recall the baptizer cult they came up with to cover turning off Deryni powers? After Rhys did it accidentally while treating Gregory's messy telekinetic head injury, they did a bit of research: finding it made Deryni react to merasha as if they were ordinary humans, making the powers undetectable to reading and finding only one other Healer (Tavis) who could do it. They set up the cult with a front man (the boy Cathan rescued all grown up), and worked for a year to a year and a half "curing" people of the "evil" Deryni taint. At a rough guess, say 20 a day, six days a week makes 9300+ people they processed. Therefore, it seems quite likely there are many people in Gwynedd who have Deryni forebears and don't know it.
Suppose what Rhys and Tavis were actually doing was turning off the gene(s) responsible for the abilities. The genes were still present and passed on to offspring. Suppose too that Warin is descended from one or more of the people who had this done. Add to this the close kinship between prayer and the intense concentration that triggers the powers (something Jehana noticed, according to canon). What if Warin
is Deryni, and switched on only the Healing trait in himself? This is possible, especially if the two abilities are from different genes. Recall too that he didn't think Deryni could Heal, but that Christ could; it was only the demonstration in Morgan's castle that convinced him of the possibility. I think he could pass notice at the time because Morgan and Duncan didn't have complete training (and Arilan wanted Cardiel to go along instead of himself, to show him Deryni in action); didn't Rhys have to demonstrate to the others what he'd done?
In fact, I'd like to see Warin brought back in that finale I wrote of before. We know he's devout, so having him disappear into some kind of retreat/quest for a few years makes sense, especially since he seemed shaken by the events at Coroth Castle. We have Kelson et.al. interested in Deryni history, and Azim as a new connection to the Knights of the Anvil, with the added impetus of the search for Teymuraz. Canon also has Joram surviving several decades after the Haldane Restoration (d. 948); suppose he left some documents with the Knights of the Anvil (wrote/dictated memoirs) so our heroes can find out what their ancestors had done? And what is in the Camberian Council's archives? Warin might head for the desert himself and turn up at the Anvillers' establishment while he's trying to sort out his issues.
Warin can't be Deryni because Morgan would have detected something unless Warin was specifically turned "off", which does not make sense; but he could easily be descended from Deryni but not inherit any but the healing gene. As the last poster suggests he could have triggered it thru intense religious activity. Or the healing gene could be completely separate from Deryni but turn on naturally during normal Deryni rituals.
I have to beg to differ on this one, though I loaned out my copies of the Camber trilogy years ago and never got them back, so I cannot give you chapter and verse. What upset Gregory at the time was that he couldn't detect his own shields after Rhys did whatever it was that he did. That was what Rhys and the others subsequently researched, and also what became the point of the cult: to turn off the powers of some Deryni so that they didn't read as Deryni, even to tame Deryni employed by the regents (not to mention losing their Deryni-specific reaction to merasha). If (as the canon depicts it) highly-trained early tenth century mages couldn't detect Deryniness in people who had the proverbial switch flipped (I recall somebody made a remark like, "If I didn't know you were Deryni, I wouldn't have been able to tell," or words to that effect), and if (as we know) twelfth century mages in general (and Morgan and Duncan in particular) had less training (thanks to the persecutions), it shouldn't be surprising that powers could exist yet be undetectable.
I suggest that perhaps what Rhys and Tavis did also affected the germ cells (the gonads and their products), not just those cells in the brain that are involved in producing shields (which, as Conall and Tiercel discussed, are the basis of everything else in the powers). The genes remain, and are transmitted to offspring, but are transmitted turned off (inactive) in some or most cases. This doesn't preclude other people over the intervening centuries having their genes turned on by environmental factors (stress) or behaviours (like intense prayer). Since most Deryni need to be trained to use their powers, it could also be true that some people could have their genes turned on and still not know they were Deryni.
FWIW I posited this notion partly to bring Warin back into the story, and partly to show human and Deryni alike just how much was lost—to drive home the inhumanity of the situation which they have lived with for so long (and to which many have no doubt become inured). It must also be said that despite the horror of the situation after the Restoration, it doesn't diminish the practical value of being able to find and use that trigger, especially in the event other Deryni suffer head injuries and manifest uncontrolled telekinesis (which surely will happen at some point).
i was not saying Morgan should detect if he was a turned-off Deryni, but that if he was weakly deryni but didnt exhibit any powers he should still be detectable. I am assuming the gene is not inherited in a turned off mode (like the old studies where people with missing limbs still produce fully limbed children). If Warin is Deryni and turned off then someone is around actively doing that to continuing the 200 year plan, but who? Your theory that genes get inherited in off mode is interesting, while not consistent with biological science. But then this is an alternate world isnt it?
If we ever get that last novel where the Truth is found then maybe that will be part of the story. And Warin will be shown to be Morgan's cousin:)
I think perhaps it's more a case of non-coding DNA (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18680-junk-dna-gets-credit-for-making-us-who-we-are.html) (colloquially known as "junk DNA"). Bearing in mind that this is speculative fiction, consider that it could be what is affected by flipping the switch. Though research about non-coding DNA has been mostly about disease conditions, that isn't the whole story:
QuoteSnyder's team didn't study what effect these differences have, but he notes that points on the genome where transcription factor binding differed between people tended to be near genes implicated in schizophrenia, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis and other ailments. He suggests, therefore, that these differences in transcription factor binding may affect disease risk.
...
He also suspects that differences in many traits – not just in disease risk – may be due to changes in non-coding DNA, rather than mutations within genes. He points out that the latter, which change the shape and function of a protein, are much more likely to have catastrophic effects than variations in non-coding DNA, which may have more subtle effects and so be more likely to be passed on to further generations.
As I read it, this means that mere presence of one or more genes isn't the whole story; rather, variations in the non-coding DNA have some degree of control over the expression of the gene(s) and therefore, the development of a given trait in the organism.
Another interesting possibility is mentioned in this article on Slate (http://www.slate.com/id/2296986): epigenetics.
QuoteIn one Swedish village, which also has records of crop harvests that go back hundreds of years, the paternal grandsons of men who experienced famine were less likely to have cardiovascular disease than their peers whose paternal grandfathers did not experience famine. But, wait, conventional wisdom says only genes are supposed to be passed on to the next generation. Most epigenetic attachments are stripped away from genes in the creation of sperm and egg cells. Yet it seems that a record of some epigenetic attachments is passed on and then recreated in the genome of the embryo, too. That means that an event in your parent's life that occurred before you were conceived could affect how your genes work today. In other words, the sins of the fathers may be visited on the deoxyribose nucleic acids of the sons.
If we posit that all Healers can direct the body on a cellular level, and those Healers who can turn off the powers can go to the molecular level and act upon/influence/cause epigenetic attachments, might this not explain how Deryni whose powers were turned off could produce descendants who retained the gene(s) yet did not express the trait? And might not such descendants be able to express those genes (and thus display the Deryni trait or portions of it) if their epigenetic attachments were subsequently changed, either by environment (stressors, chemicals, diet, etc.) or by the actions of a Deryni Healer who is able to reach said molecular level?
Quote from: BalanceTheEnergies on June 20, 2011, 06:49:26 PM
If we posit that all Healers can direct the body on a cellular level, and those Healers who can turn off the powers can go to the molecular level and act upon/influence/cause epigenetic attachments, might this not explain how Deryni whose powers were turned off could produce descendants who retained the gene(s) yet did not express the trait? And might not such descendants be able to express those genes (and thus display the Deryni trait or portions of it) if their epigenetic attachments were subsequently changed, either by environment (stressors, chemicals, diet, etc.) or by the actions of a Deryni Healer who is able to reach said molecular level?
or we could just say its magic ::)
To cite Clarke's Third Law : "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I've always thought one of the brilliant aspects of KK's works is that the magic operates within definite limits. Some of limits are plot driven; the persecutions and the attendant need for secrecy/discretion are one such example. Other limits seem to be more universal and grounded in the material world. Deryni can't just do high-powered spells or rituals repeatedly with incurring fatigue or exhaustion. Spells can have physical range limits (like the Call that can't reach across the whole kingdom or through solid rock). Such limits (and characters dealing with them) are a huge part of the drama.
Your Mileage May Vary, but I find that these "rules" permit me to enjoy the books eventhough I'm a freethinker and a secular humanist. If everything the Deryni do can be explained on a material basis (say as the products of stronger than usual bioelectric fields generated by their brains), I'm fine with that. Consequently, I enter into the game of puzzling out how the magic works vis-a-vis the material world as we know it, and it seems many other people on this site do that too. If new scientific discoveries could be put towards an understanding of how stuff works in KK's world, that enthuses me even more. Sure, to the characters it's magic that Deryni can light a candle by snapping their fingers because they don't know about molecules or heat or friction the way we do. For myself, I want the "deeper" understanding of the "science" behind it.
It's not that I'm incapable of the willing suspension of disbelief; I'm already doing that to go along with the quasi-scientific notion of Deryni brains producing stronger-than-normal bioelectric fields that can have effects in the world outside their bodies. It's just that I like having something more.