The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => The Childe Morgan => Topic started by: Laurna on December 18, 2014, 03:43:09 AM

Title: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Laurna on December 18, 2014, 03:43:09 AM
Welcome to Rhemuth Castle! If you have finished reading all the way through to the last page of The King's Deryni, than please, enter the Kings withdrawing room and join in a fun topic of the latest Deryni escapades.

I think of this chapter in the Deryni series as a story for the fans- a story filled with the people we love and want to have a more intimate knowledge of how they became who they are. Notably in my mind is Kenneth and Llion. For me, they are the heroes of their generation.
There is much in the book and I'll admit a few things left out that I wish were there. But for the opening of this thread let us discuss what is printed in the pages. Perhaps we could start with a glimpse of all the side characters and the many geographical locals visited. Did you recognize some of them? Perhaps we can start out by pointing out just who is who and who they became in the years to come.
Notably, I welcomed a meeting with Ralson near the end of the book. Who was to become a trusted friend of Alaric and who loses his life in the very opening chapters of Deryni Rising.  Another character meet that left me with less joy was the knighting of Brice de Paor. There was a man who did not hold to his oaths made to his king. And of course there is Lendour, for me this is a special place. I loved meeting Zoe's children and the note that they are half Deryni too.

Tell me if a person or a place stood out to you.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Evie on December 18, 2014, 09:25:13 AM
Father Creoda.  He seemed to be Deryni-friendly, or at least Deryni-neutral, in TKD, yet IIRC he was on Loris's side of things in the Kelson-era books.  So I'd really love to know what happened in the years between Jorian's burning and Loris's ascendancy to change his opinions about the Deryni.

We also see Caitrin with her first husband, but I wish we could have at least caught a glimpse of her second-husband-to-be, even though this novel's timeline ends before that second marriage, given how much of a role that Sicard and their children play in the Histories of King Kelson trilogy.

I loved the brief glimpses of other kingdoms, though, and seeing more of the page and squire view of Rhemuth Castle life. (Including descriptions of their livery, which will help me in dressing my mini-Deryni!)  And all mentions of young Duncan, obviously.  ;D
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: revanne on December 18, 2014, 11:23:45 AM
I loved Llion and was glad he got the girl of his dreams - I think Alaric is both grateful and gracious to him. I wonder what happened to him? Don't know whether I've got this right but I get a sense that human/Deryni relations have calmed down a bit but are getting worse through CM and TKD largely due to the De Nore influence. Maybe Alaric deliberately distances himself from his Morgan relatives - by now including Llion so as not to "contaminate them"?

I find Alaric a bit precocious but not unbelievably so for a child of his time and status but I got very cross with Brion - who I think treated him very badly. The "spoilt brat" gene in the Haldanes does pop up from time to time. Brion in memory (in DR and DC) is described as imposing and awe-inspiring, but he lets Jehana walk all over him.

Another thought came to mind - have they used merasha-spiked wine at all ordinations since the statues of Ramos or is it De Nore who re-introduces it as part as his vengeful paranoia and maybe others have crept through. If all priests with any Deryni blood had suffered like poor Jorian it would be hard to see why Duncan would even be considering a vocation?

And finally for now! -What does Bethune think she is doing in DC? I can understand why she tries to kill Alaric initially but she seem genuinely fond of Bronwyn - does she think she is doing Bronwyn a favour by giving her a man who loves her not knowing that Kevin really does and it's not a marriage of convenience or is she just a sad and confused old woman whose wits are totally addled by this time. I found the story very hard to read knowing what lay in store.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Laurna on December 18, 2014, 12:04:42 PM
QuoteI loved the brief glimpses of other kingdoms
Agreed, i loved going to Var Adony, the Hort of Orsal's winter palace, I loved the formalities there and the meeting of Sivorn, Duke Richard's future wife. (I do wonder how that comes about.) Of course, we all so meet Wencit there, oh scary man. So glad Se was there too, to save Alaric from himself.
I loved going to Bremagne, and enjoying the french-like country atmosphere of vineyards and easy going people. Although if they were so easy going, than how could Jehana have surrounded herself with so many people filled with hate and intolerance. Revanne, I agree with you, Brion should have been more instructing on the usefulness of magic to convince his queen to come to terms with it, rather than exile magic from her so she only grew to hate it more. If Brion would have succeeded than Deryni Rising would have been a very different story and we would not have had that great council meeting where young King Kelson exerts his authority.

Revanne you bring up an interesting note about the use of merasha-spiked wine at all ordinations. It would have effected many young men who may have only a touch of Deryni abilities like shields and the ability to know when someone was telling the truth. They might not even have a clue about what they are. It is a very scary thought that this sever punishment had been in use for two hundred years. Any man would be afraid of finalizing their vocations and rightly so.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Shiral on December 18, 2014, 02:04:52 PM
Re Brion and Jehana Well....I think Brion was crazy in love with this gorgeous creature thinking more with his hormones than his brain, only to find how difficult she could be when she WASN'T trying to be agreeable. And I think it took him by surprise that she WOULD actually leave the court and her husband the way she did. But true, he doesn't treat Alaric very well. On the other hand there are mentions in DR that Brion always had to balance his friendship with Alaric and Jehana's hostility toward him.  And Brion  was playing hooky in Corwyn when Kelson was born, so that can't have pleased Jehana much.

This book at last had the growing relationship between Alaric and Brion that I was hoping to see....and I wanted to see more of that and somewhat fewer mentions of Alaric's training routines.  I understand that training for knighthood is an all-absorbing thing and yes, we know Alaric is being rigorously trained with great discipline at court, but....this could have been made clear with fewer repetitions. I wanted to see Alaric and Brion sit down at the Cardounet board and really BOND over a game. I can only guess that their friendship grew stronger and deeper as Alaric matured, because the Brion of this book still feels a bit remote from that father and brother figure that Alaric mourns in Deryni Rising.

With regards to Alaric's training, since Alaric becomes the Kelson's champion, and has clear motivation for learning how to physically defend himself extremely well, his early prowess didn't bother me  so much.  Becoming an accomplished swordsman and knight in a "don't mess with me" way is really quite useful for an openly Deryni duke with few trusted friends at court.  We know in the first trilogy that Alaric grows up to be exactly that kind of warrior. So I found it belieavable that Alaric showed his capabilities early.

Melissa
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Jerusha on December 18, 2014, 02:08:35 PM
Quote from: revanne on December 18, 2014, 11:23:45 AM

And finally for now! -What does Bethune think she is doing in DC? I can understand why she tries to kill Alaric initially but she seem genuinely fond of Bronwyn - does she think she is doing Bronwyn a favour by giving her a man who loves her not knowing that Kevin really does and it's not a marriage of convenience or is she just a sad and confused old woman whose wits are totally addled by this time. I found the story very hard to read knowing what lay in store.

OK, I'm halfway through now, and probably shouldn't be reading this, but...

Maybe I read this chapter too quickly, but I honestly thought Bethane wanting to kill Alaric kind of came out of the blue.  In the original story (admittedly told from Bethane's point of view), you get some idea why.  But in TKD, one minute she's saying she can fix his arm and the next she's trying to poison him.  Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Alkari on December 18, 2014, 02:35:12 PM
QuoteAlthough if they were so easy going, than how could Jehana have surrounded herself with so many people filled with hate and intolerance.
If I recall correctly from later books, the explanation is that she was educated at a convent which was run by a very anti-Deryni abbess, and was heavily influenced by her.    I noticed Creoda too, but is seemed to me that in TDK he was not pro-Deryni as much as relatively neutral in his attitude, and of course, until de Nore got appointed as Archbishop and Primate, the virulent and open anti-Deryni hatred of the Church had died down slightly.  (His predecessor Paul Tollendal seemed more tolerant.)   Between TDK and the first Deryni trilogy, obviously Creoda was gradually influenced by both de Nore and then Loris.     

Nice to meet Derry's father, Sir Seamus O'Flynn, and also see the Howells of Eastmarch.   It was Ian Howell of course who took up with Charissa in DR and fought Alaric, and with the Eastmarch rebellion we also got that brief glimpse of Rhydon. 

I guess my absolutely overwhelming reaction to the book though is:  What HAPPENED to all Alaric's relatives in the 14 years between the end of TDK and the first of the Kelson books?!    The impression you get in the first Deryni trilogy is how very 'alone' Alaric is in terms of family, which adds to the tragedy of the deaths of Kevin and Bronwyn, and later of Duke Jared.   Yet at the end of TDK he has three half-sisters, all of whom are married, plus assorted 'cousins'/nephews and nieces, not to mention Zoe's Deryni husband in Lendour, Sir Jovett Chandos  (Alaric's brother in law).   Even in the four later King Kelson books, there is no mention of any of Alaric's relatives on the Morgan side. 

And of course - what happens to Sir Se Trelawney? He keeps appearing conveniently during TDK, so you would expect him to continue with Alaric's training once Alaric becomes duke, ensuring that King Brion has a properly trained Deryni protector.   So what is Sir Se's story between TDK and DR?  :) 

Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Evie on December 18, 2014, 02:49:51 PM
Quote from: revanne on December 18, 2014, 11:23:45 AM
I loved Llion and was glad he got the girl of his dreams - I think Alaric is both grateful and gracious to him. I wonder what happened to him? Don't know whether I've got this right but I get a sense that human/Deryni relations have calmed down a bit but are getting worse through CM and TKD largely due to the De Nore influence. Maybe Alaric deliberately distances himself from his Morgan relatives - by now including Llion so as not to "contaminate them"?

I think this is quite likely.  Also, remember that the absence of their mention in the Deryni Chronicles trilogy wouldn't necessarily mean these characters are no longer around, even if KK had written this trilogy first.  Since they were not directly involved in the events of that trilogy, they wouldn't have turned up in the story even if they all were living in Alaric's back yard by then.  Absence of mention does not necessarily mean death or distancing, although of course those are also possible.

Quote
I find Alaric a bit precocious but not unbelievably so for a child of his time and status but I got very cross with Brion - who I think treated him very badly. The "spoilt brat" gene in the Haldanes does pop up from time to time. Brion in memory (in DR and DC) is described as imposing and awe-inspiring, but he lets Jehana walk all over him.

Well, to be fair, it's a lot easier to be imposing and awe-inspiring as a mature forty-year-old King than as a young early-twenty-something who is still growing into full manhood, much less kingship.  Yes, fourteen is the legal age of manhood in Gwynedd, and Brion has had a few years to grow into his title, but he's also not had much time to learn how to navigate the perilous waters of relationship with a wife in this book.  And alas, although it's clear to me from the events in DR that Alaric eventually gets to spend enough time in Rhemuth's court to forge a close relationship with Kelson (which would not have happened had he been exiled to Coroth for the entirety of the time between Jehana's return to Rhemuth and Brion's death), I really don't see how Brion could have appeased his new queen doing anything other than what he did.  Like it or not, Brion had to consider his own wife's feelings above that of someone outside of his marriage, and he did so hoping that Jehana's attitude towards Alaric would mellow over time. Unfortunately it did not, but that was hardly something Brion could help short of taking the even more drastic step of tampering with her mind.  If nothing else, Brion needed an heir, and for that he needed his Queen to return home.  After Kelson's birth (and the subsequent loss of Kelson's sister), there seems to have been an estrangement between Brion and his queen, and I think that estrangement was caused or at least exacerbated by Alaric's return to Rhemuth court life. If anyone is being a spoiled brat in the relationship, I think it's Jehana, but from what we saw of her in later years, that's hardly a surprise in this book.  I see Brion as a confused newlywed husband trying to make the best of a difficult situation that his crockery-throwing brat of a bride has put him in, and still too in love with her to know how to put the best interests of his kingdom above the wishes of the woman who has captured his heart.

Quote
Another thought came to mind - have they used merasha-spiked wine at all ordinations since the statues of Ramos or is it De Nore who re-introduces it as part as his vengeful paranoia and maybe others have crept through. If all priests with any Deryni blood had suffered like poor Jorian it would be hard to see why Duncan would even be considering a vocation?

Would many Deryni have considered a vocation, though, in a kingdom where being a Deryni priest was punishable by death?  I suspect that the few who tried were dealt with more quietly before de Nore came along and decided to use Jorian as a public example, so it's possible that before that execution, people were in the dark about how such "infiltrators" were handled. But it's also possible that they knew what the penalty would be all along, and therefore there weren't many Deryni who even tried to get as far as ordination, but Jorian decided to take his chances anyway.  (I lean towards the latter explanation.  Otherwise, as secretive as the Arilans are about their Deryni lineage, it's unlikely that Denis would have risked being "outed" as a Deryni upon ordination, not just for the risk to himself but to Jamyl and his family as well. I know that the merasha laced wine wasn't public knowledge.  But if they suspected some sort of screening process was in place, Denis probably thought it would be something easily enough gotten around, to have dared become a seminarian in the first place.)

Quote
And finally for now! -What does Bethune think she is doing in DC? I can understand why she tries to kill Alaric initially but she seem genuinely fond of Bronwyn - does she think she is doing Bronwyn a favour by giving her a man who loves her not knowing that Kevin really does and it's not a marriage of convenience or is she just a sad and confused old woman whose wits are totally addled by this time. I found the story very hard to read knowing what lay in store.

I haven't read DC in a while, but did she even remember who Bronwyn was, or know that Bronwyn was the woman Rimmell was in love with and wanted the love spell for?  I tend to lean towards the theory that the old woman was a complete nutter by that time (or nearly so) and that she didn't harm Bronwyn and Kevin out of personal malice.

Quote from: Laurna on December 18, 2014, 12:04:42 PM
QuoteI loved the brief glimpses of other kingdoms
Agreed, i loved going to Var Adony, the Hort of Orsal's winter palace, I loved the formalities there and the meeting of Sivorn, Duke Richard's future wife. (I do wonder how that comes about.) Of course, we all so meet Wencit there, oh scary man. So glad Se was there too, to save Alaric from himself.

Yes, I'd dearly love to know how Sir Se always knows just when to appear. :D  As for Richard's marriage to Sivorn, I suspect it was a simple case of her being a marriageable, nubile princess just ripe for marriage when Richard eventually decided it was time to find a bride for himself and create a few Haldane cadet-line heirs.   :)

Quote
I loved going to Bremagne, and enjoying the french-like country atmosphere of vineyards and easy going people. Although if they were so easy going, than how could Jehana have surrounded herself with so many people filled with hate and intolerance.

They were easy-going at the Court of Bremagne, but if the nuns and chaplain from the convent where Jehana was educated are anything to go by, at that convent not so much.  And Jehana probably spent some years there getting her education, so it's little surprise that the devout young princess would surround herself with companions whom she grew up thinking of as moral role-models. I question her parents' good sense in picking out that convent to send their daughter off to for an education during her formative years, though maybe they thought that convent would serve as an antidote to the more permissive mores at their court.  After all, one doesn't want a morally permissive princess if one hopes to have her make a good marriage to someone like the King of Gwynedd.  Poor Xenia, on the other hand, experienced the consequences of being too morally permissive in the view of her society at her brother's more conservative court.  (It's ironic that Jehana's convent education turned her into an anti-Deryni fanatic and a detriment to poor Brion, whereas if poor Xenia had been sent to Arc-en-Ciel to be educated, she probably wouldn't have been in the wrong place at the wrong time for Sigismund to take advantage of. Not to mention they might have helped curb some of her willful arrogance at being a Haldane princess.)

Quote
Revanne, I agree with you, Brion should have been more instructing on the usefulness of magic to convince his queen to come to terms with it, rather than exile magic from her so she only grew to hate it more. If Brion would have succeeded than Deryni Rising would have been a very different story and we would not have had that great council meeting where young King Kelson exerts his authority.

I doubt very much that any efforts on Brion's part would have succeeded, though, since Jehana's fear was not based on unfamiliarity with magic but on a sincere belief that using it was inherently evil, and therefore if Brion had started trying to instruct Jehana on how "useful" it was, he would have only turned her away from it (and him) all the more quickly.  It wouldn't matter how useful a thing is if it comes from an evil source, and to Jehana's mind all magic is evil.  It wasn't until she couldn't reconcile the idea of magic=evil with something inherently good such as healing that Jehana was able to start recognizing that her whole paradigm was based on a false premise.  (And even so, I'm a little surprised that someone with Jehana's educational background didn't simply decide that even evil things can be used for ends that look deceptively good but that the appearance is deceiving somehow.)

Quote
Revanne you bring up an interesting note about the use of merasha-spiked wine at all ordinations. It would have effected many young men who may have only a touch of Deryni abilities like shields and the ability to know when someone was telling the truth. They might not even have a clue about what they are. It is a very scary thought that this sever punishment had been in use for two hundred years. Any man would be afraid of finalizing their vocations and rightly so.

This is why I suspect that merasha only works on Deryni (or humans with the Haldane-type of magic potential) if their powers have already been activated rather than if their powers lie undiscovered and dormant. Correct me if I've misremembered, but are blocked Deryni susceptible to merasha?  If not, then their descendants might be equally protected from merasha's effects, since they've had no training to fully activate their magical potential.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: revanne on December 18, 2014, 03:55:51 PM
"I doubt very much that any efforts on Brion's part would have succeeded, though, since Jehana's fear was not based on unfamiliarity with magic but on a sincere belief that using it was inherently evil, and therefore if Brion had started trying to instruct Jehana on how "useful" it was, he would have only turned her away from it (and him) all the more quickly.  It wouldn't matter how useful a thing is if it comes from an evil source, and to Jehana's mind all magic is evil.  It wasn't until she couldn't reconcile the idea of magic=evil with something inherently good such as healing that Jehana was able to start recognizing that her whole paradigm was based on a false premise.  (And even so, I'm a little surprised that someone with Jehana's educational background didn't simply decide that even evil things can be used for ends that look deceptively good but that the appearance is deceiving somehow.)"

I totally accept that Brion is not thinking with his brain in TKD in relation to Jehana and there are some lovely glimpses of his relationship with Alaric as when he agrees that Llion should remain Alaric's knight in such a humorous and generous way. I guess  that after Kenneth dies (not good but he must be one of the few significant KK characters to die peacefully in bed) I got very protective of the young Alaric. So I am probably being unfair to Brion and he did get a raw deal with Jehana - given the rate of child mortality ( how many brothers did Brion lose as children, two or three?) just having the one heir by a woman who is obviously fertile must have created frustration and anxiety for him to say the least.  I have to say I find the sudden conversion of Jehana in KKB very implausible - unless it is simply that she has fallen totally in love with Barrett which then begs the question as to her feelings for Brion. Maybe she feels as much a victim as Xenia - her father certainly seems very keen to tempt Brion with one of his daughters.

Sir Se is wonderfully mysterious - his powers seem almost supernatural even in Deryni terms. But assuming that a lot if not most of the pre-restoration Deryni wisdom went with the Michelines into exile, and some of the Gabriellites made it out of St. Neots then the knowledge/skill of the Knights of the Anvil has had two hundred years to develop. Deryni in Gwynedd on the other hand have gone backward so that by the time of TKD there could be a skill gap of 3-400 years between Gwynedd Deryni and the Knights.

Re Bronwyn -in DC Rimmel shows Bethune the locket with Bronwen's picture in it but maybe that doesn't mean anything to her and it's just that she is a batty old lady with terrible consequences.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Evie on December 18, 2014, 04:02:27 PM
Quote from: revanne on December 18, 2014, 03:55:51 PM
Re Bronwyn -in DC Rimmel shows Bethune the locket with Bronwen's picture in it but maybe that doesn't mean anything to her and it's just that she is a batty old lady with terrible consequences.


I'm not quite as much of a certifiable nutcase, but I'm pretty sure that if I met a five year old girl only one time, I would not recognize her grown-up image fifteen or more years later.  Actually, with my memory for faces, I might not even remember her fifteen days later!  ;D
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Alkari on December 18, 2014, 04:19:54 PM
QuoteYes, I'd dearly love to know how Sir Se always knows just when to appear. :D
QuoteSir Se is wonderfully mysterious - his powers seem almost supernatural even in Deryni terms. But assuming that a lot if not most of the pre-restoration Deryni wisdom went with the Michelines into exile, and some of the Gabriellites made it out of St. Neots then the knowledge/skill of the Knights of the Anvil has had two hundred years to develop. Deryni in Gwynedd on the other hand have gone backward so that by the time of TKD there could be a skill gap of 3-400 years between Gwynedd Deryni and the Knights. 
Yes, there is definitely a story to be told with regard to sir Se!  :D     We know that Stefan Coram was responsible for some of the mysterious Camber appearances in the Deryni Chronicles, but who left that shiral crystal and was the mysterious figure on the beach near Coroth at the end of QFSC?   As Kelson and Dhugal realise, it points to the Anviller knights, but in KKB Kelson has other distractions.  Do Kelson or Alaric ever get to follow up on the Anviller aspect?

And I'm with you about that locket picture of Bronwyn, Evie!   Some people stay recognisable over the years, but others change completely.      At a school reunion about 2 months ago, we were looking at some old photos and trying to identify at least one or two of the people in each, so that they could be archived with some meaningful reference, even if just to the likely class(es).  Looking back some 40+ years and trying to put names to faces was hilarious.  Some we could definitely name, while others were a total mystery.  And in a few cases we just got to 'that has to be an X' where there had been lots of X family members over the years at the school.  Saying just which X it was, was a little more difficult, especially when all the Xs had strong family resemblances and the one in the photo was only 9 or 10 at the time  :)
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: revanne on December 18, 2014, 04:35:08 PM
  [/quote]
Yes, there is definitely a story to be told with regard to sir Se!  :D     We know that Stefan Coram was responsible for some of the mysterious Camber appearances in the Deryni Chronicles, but who left that shiral crystal and was the mysterious figure on the beach near Coroth at the end of QFSC?   As Kelson and Dhugal realise, it points to the Anviller knights, but in KKB Kelson has other distractions.  Do Kelson or Alaric ever get to follow up on the Anviller aspect?
[/quote]

I'd wondered about the mysterious figure who wasn't Stefan Coram... I've never understood how the figure Duncan meets on the road back to Coroth knows what he had said to Alaric about the priesthood not meaning so much to him any more (one of the few silly remarks Duncan makes, or is he trying to convince himself) - it doesn't seem to be part of usual Deryni skills but does sound more like Sir Se.

Guess I was just trying to make some sense out of the Bronwyn tragedy but have to agree on reflection that remembering that far back is unlikely - some days I wouldn't recognise a picture of myself!

On a lighter note it's lovely to meet Sir Henry the mariner again (can't remember his surname) and really wanted a glimpse of the medieval equivalent of "Cardounet for dummies!"
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: DesertRose on December 18, 2014, 04:52:37 PM
Quote from: Alkari on December 18, 2014, 04:19:54 PM
And I'm with you about that locket picture of Bronwyn, Evie!   Some people stay recognisable over the years, but others change completely.

It does depend on a lot of things.  Some people's facial structure changes as they mature and then age, and then some people hardly change at all.  Some people's hair color changes dramatically as time marches on.  (For two examples, my oldest brother was blond as a child but his hair darkened to auburn as he grew up.  There's a family photo of him around 19 or 20 with fairly bright auburn hair, and nowadays in his mid-50s, it's darker auburn.  And my friend and neighbor was pale blond as recently as his early 20s, but now at 40 has hair almost as dark as mine--my avatar is actually me.)

I personally seem to be one of the ones who hardly change at all.  I'm online-friends with a woman who went to the same elementary school as I did,  and we were close friends back then (30 years and more ago) but we haven't seen each other in the flesh in 20+ years (partially because, these days, she lives in Finland [having married a Finnish guy] and I live in Florida, LOL).  I posted a recent photo of myself online, and she said she'd know me anywhere, never mind we were young adolescents the last time we saw each other in person.  She, on the other hand, from a recent photo, is barely recognizable as the girl with whom I spent so many recess and after-school times playing.

So it is believable to me that Bethane, having seen Bronwyn as a child of five on one (memorable for the kids, maybe not so much for Bethane) occasion, might fail to recognize a miniature portrait of the same girl all grown up and ready for marriage.

P.S.  No, I haven't read TKD yet, but I have to read the threads anyway as I'm about the only one with moderator permissions who has time to check the board every day, LOL.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: snuffybear on December 20, 2014, 02:29:05 PM
I have to preface my comments with the caveat that the book focused on my least favorite character, Alaric Morgan, so my opinion is strongly tainted by that...

I never once thought I was reading about a young boy growing into young manhood, but rather a young adult. Yes, I get that he was something special, but I would like to have seen him act his age at some point. And losing his virginity at 11? Seriously?

That being said, I liked the ancillary characters, especially Kenneth and Llion. I was glad to see that Kenneth survived as long as he did. Llion played a role very similar to the role Alaric plays for Kelson when Kelson first becomes king.

I also enjoyed seeing Brion as a young man, and I was glad to see he wasn't a Kelson clone. I also enjoyed the hints of things to come-Nigel and Meraude, the Hort of Orsal's court, the captain of the boat, Duke Jared and his family. Like everyone else, I'm wondering about Alaric's Morgan relations. I always got the impression that Alaric was very lonely when Kelson first became king, and that he really didn't have anyone close to him except Duncan.

I do think this book was in need of a stronger editor. There was a lot of extraneous material that didn't add to the story. But I'm glad it's out of KK's system and we can maybe get a book about 948, or maybe get a glimpse of Kelson and Araxie. Actually, I would love to see a book that focuses on the Arilans.

Despite my criticisms, I did enjoy the book. I love any glimspe into Gwynedd!

Marion
(President, Denis Arilan Fan Club)
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: bh1971 on December 20, 2014, 03:05:13 PM
Quote from: Alkari on December 18, 2014, 02:35:12 PM
Quote

I guess my absolutely overwhelming reaction to the book though is:  What HAPPENED to all Alaric's relatives in the 14 years between the end of TDK and the first of the Kelson books?!   

And of course - what happens to Sir Se Trelawney? He keeps appearing conveniently during TDK, so you would expect him to continue with Alaric's training once Alaric becomes duke, ensuring that King Brion has a properly trained Deryni protector.   So what is Sir Se's story between TDK and DR?  :)

I would say that most of them were dead. Kenneth lived to be 53, which for the middle ages is pretty long. Sir Se and Sir Llion would be about that age, also. Alaric didn't seem to be too close to his half-sisters, so it seems unlikely he would be any closer to their off springs. He barely spent any time with Brownyn or his cousins, his closest relatives. His closest friends seem to be his follow pages, who are not afraid of him.

The question is how did they die, Old age or something else?

Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: revanne on December 20, 2014, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: snuffybear on December 20, 2014, 02:29:05 PM

I never once thought I was reading about a young boy growing into young manhood, but rather a young adult. Yes, I get that he was something special, but I would like to have seen him act his age at some point. And losing his virginity at 11? Seriously?


Part of the point surely is that he cannot afford to be a normal child. The nearest he gets to it is the summer at Culdi which nearly ends in disaster after the encounter with Bethune. And acting impulsively as he does with the grey mare leads to tragedy. I'm not sure that his age for losing his virginity is so unlikely - Richard III of England was a grandfather by the time he was killed at the battle of Bosworth aged 32. 11 for us is still a child, barely an adolescent but in Gwynedd it is within reach of manhood.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Alkari on December 20, 2014, 05:57:20 PM
QuoteI would say that most of them were dead. Kenneth lived to be 53, which for the middle ages is pretty long. Sir Se and Sir Llion would be about that age, also. Alaric didn't seem to be too close to his half-sisters, so it seems unlikely he would be any closer to their off springs. He barely spent any time with Brownyn or his cousins, his closest relatives. His closest friends seem to be his follow pages, who are not afraid of him.

The question is how did they die, Old age or something else?
Alaric was as close to his half-sisters as he could possibly have been, taking into account the communications in those days.   Yes, they were married, but not to just 'anyone'.   The most distant person was Geill, married to Sir Walter Lithgow, a Kierney knight.   I can understand Alaric not being particularly close to her or her children, as he was unlikely to visit Kierney.  But with his close links to the eventual earl, Kevin McLain, you can't imagine that he wouldn't have heard any news of her or stay in some sort of distant touch.    But Zoe and Alazais are another matter.   Zoe is married to the Deryni Sir Jovett Chandos in Lendour.   Alaric is the Earl of Lendour, which figures regularly in TDK, with Alaric visiting it several times (he is delighted to see Zoe and his 'cousins' when he does) and sending Lendour knights to Torenth with Queen Richeldis.   You can't imagine that once Brion formally confirmed Alaric in the title, he didn't go to Cynfyn any more and see Zoe and her children!  :D   And finally there is Alazais, who marries Llion.   Apart from his father and Brion, the one adult young Alaric is really close to and trusts is Llion: indeed, Alaric sees a lot more of Llion than he does of Kenneth.  You simply cannot imagine Alaric not staying in touch with Llion, Alazais and their family, especially if they were at Morganhall.    Llion was young and newly knighted when he starts looking after the almost 3 y.o. Alaric in CM, so he would have been in his mid forties by the time of the Deryni Chronicles.

As for his friends who were fellow pages and squires, I'd certainly like to know what became of Paget and Jernian, and especially the Prince Cormac down in Howwice and Llannedd.   Would / could all the people who were close to Alaric in TDK have died off in the 14-18 years between TDK and the Kelson era books? 

Quote from: revanne on December 20, 2014, 03:49:03 PM
Part of the point surely is that he cannot afford to be a normal child. 
Exactly.  The few occasions he does get the chance to be just a normal kid are all the more poignant because of that.   
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: snuffybear on December 21, 2014, 10:03:28 AM
Quote from: revanne on December 20, 2014, 03:49:03 PM

Part of the point surely is that he cannot afford to be a normal child. The nearest he gets to it is the summer at Culdi which nearly ends in disaster after the encounter with Bethune. And acting impulsively as he does with the grey mare leads to tragedy. I'm not sure that his age for losing his virginity is so unlikely - Richard III of England was a grandfather by the time he was killed at the battle of Bosworth aged 32. 11 for us is still a child, barely an adolescent but in Gwynedd it is within reach of manhood.

Who were Richard III's granchildren? His only legitimate son died age 10, and I can't find that his illegitimate children had children.

My point about Alaric is that he has no faults. While I appreciate that he's not a normal child, he appears to be perfect. That's why I've never found him to be interesting.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Evie on December 21, 2014, 11:58:44 AM
While Alaric isn't my favorite character (not due to any of his flaws or lack thereof, I just like some other characters more), I think he's as flawed as anyone else in the series. He adopts his "darkling phase" persona possibly as a way of displaying his (pretended) indifference to what others think of him, but as Cardiel ends up having to point out, his acting out behavior is to the detriment of human/Deryni relations because he is deliberately playing to the "evil Deryni" prejudices rather than putting more effort into overcoming them. His communication skills with his wife leave a lot to be desired, leading to some marital disharmony until Richenda manages to startle some sense into his obtuse "don't worry your pretty head" skull. (I wouldn't have blamed Richenda for pouring the ink pot onto his head rather than just scattering the tally sticks everywhere at that point!) He is grumpy and out of sorts after having to represent the Crown at high table while the others get ready for a ritual in St. Camber's chapel (was that for setting Nigel's potential?), and Richenda has to calm him down and tell him that he's got himself all worked up. While he has good reason to resent the Camberian Council, I also get a sense that he might have better relations with them if he were willing to be more of a team player. (Though to be fair, I can also see why he wouldn't trust them enough to want to work with the team.). Alaric is fortunately completely loyal to Kelson, because otherwise I can see him as a "don't bother me with your silly rules" kind of guy, and while that can be an asset in some situations, it can also be a detriment in others. I'm not sure he is as ruthless as Arilan (I really admire Denis for the most part, but found his cavalier suggestion that Vanissa and/or her unborn child could be done away with in order to ensure that Conall's child would not become a Haldane pretender quite frankly appalling, especially coming from a bishop!), but he is not without his own streak of "the ends justify the means."  As for young Alaric, yes, he is immensely talented for a boy of his tender years, but we still see glimpses of quite natural insecurities and fears, and situations he might have handled better given more forethought or experience. So while I see him as extremely gifted, and more often than not doing his best with a bad situation (aside from a few lapses like the "darkling phase" attitude, where he's clearly decided "they're not going to like me no matter what I do, so I'll just dress to expectations and they can all sod off), I can't really see him as all that perfect.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Laurna on December 21, 2014, 03:04:52 PM
QuoteChapter 2 Deryni Rising
The stair case and entryway were still crowded with richly garbed lords and ladies, and Morgan was suddenly aware again how he must stand out among them in his dusty black leathers. ... And when he returned their glances with his usual half-smile and bow, the ladies shrank away from him as though afraid, and the men moved their hands a little closer to their weapons.
... These people actually believed him to be the evil Deryni sorcerer of the legends!
Very well, Let them stare. He would play along. If they wished to see the suave, self-assured, vaguely menacing Deryni Lord in action, he would oblige!
I have loved this opening since ever I first read it. I don't think Alaric purposely tried to play the dark Deryni Lord before this moment. He may have worn dark clothing to not draw attention to himself when ever he was allowed to return to Rhemuth. Because of the queen's dislike, I believed he kept a low profile to be with Brion and the young prince Kelson. But the rumors and accusations started by a Torenthi enemy, played to the Queen's fears and gave her the influence she needed to have everyone see this man as an evil treasonous Deryni and get him executed. What other choice did he have but to stand up for who he truly is. A powerful protector of the crown, and a Deryni!
Evie, I love your comments about his poor ability to communicate with Richenda. He loves her desperately but he has no idea how to handle a woman, he obviously has little experience in this area (other than the mere physical part of it, to be sure). Alaric is by no means perfect. What he is is someone who calculates every mistake he has ever made and determines what went wrong and makes sure that mistake never happens again. If we all could do that we would look like gods too.

Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: LauraS on December 21, 2014, 06:28:52 PM
Quote from: snuffybear on December 21, 2014, 10:03:28 AM
Quote from: revanne on December 20, 2014, 03:49:03 PM

Part of the point surely is that he cannot afford to be a normal child. The nearest he gets to it is the summer at Culdi which nearly ends in disaster after the encounter with Bethune. And acting impulsively as he does with the grey mare leads to tragedy. I'm not sure that his age for losing his virginity is so unlikely - Richard III of England was a grandfather by the time he was killed at the battle of Bosworth aged 32. 11 for us is still a child, barely an adolescent but in Gwynedd it is within reach of manhood.

Who were Richard III's granchildren? His only legitimate son died age 10, and I can't find that his illegitimate children had children.

My point about Alaric is that he has no faults. While I appreciate that he's not a normal child, he appears to be perfect. That's why I've never found him to be interesting.

Richard III had no known grandchildren. His only legitimate son, Edward Prince of Wales, died at age ten as noted.  Of his two acknowledged illegitimate children, both born in his teens before his marriage to Anne Neville, John of Gloucester was reportedly executed privately by Henry Tudor sometime around 1499 after being accused of "receiving treasonous correspondence from Ireland."  He had been kept under close confinement since Bosworth and had no known children.  Richard's daughter, Katherine, married  William Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke and also died without issue and her husband was described as a widower at Elizabeth of York's coronation as Henry VII's Queen in 1487. 
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: revanne on December 22, 2014, 09:25:03 AM
Richard III definitely has no known descendants - it seems very unlikely that any would have survived the benign murderous reign of the Tudors. The DNA used to match his bones found buried under a Leicester car park in 2012 was taken from the descendants of one of his sisters. It is amazing what a fuss there has been about where he is to be re-buried - eventually Leicester Cathedral has won but York Minster and people living in York are not happy! I originally come from Leicester where very little has ever happened so can see why the cathedral would want a royal burial. Rather beautifully some at least of the prayers will be taken from the Sarum Rite which would have been in use in Richard's life-time.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Jerusha on December 24, 2014, 10:44:27 AM
I thought I should save this question for the spoilers string   :)

Did anyone else wonder why Rhydon turned traitor and actively supported the Marluk?  I know they were on familiar terms, but what pushed Rhydon over the edge to active treason? 
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Shiral on December 24, 2014, 03:09:43 PM
Quote from: Jerusha on December 24, 2014, 10:44:27 AM
I thought I should save this question for the spoilers string   :)

Did anyone else wonder why Rhydon turned traitor and actively supported the Marluk?  I know they were on familiar terms, but what pushed Rhydon over the edge to active treason?

I don't think we're ever told why Rhydon did it, especially after he got so wounded defending Brion in CM against Zachris Pomeroy's plot. He's too much of a bit player, so to speak.  I wish we knew more about his motives, myself. He was clearly a Gwyneddan noble who listened to his ambition rather than his good sense.

Melissa
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Alice on January 05, 2015, 06:59:04 AM
Just finished TKD - first reading and thought I'd post a few notes and a question.  Thought the book was very good.  It was especially good to see how Alaric developed; his relationship with Brion and seeing more of his Morgan and McLain families. I especially liked seeing so much of Kenneth, but was sorry that he died when Alaric and Bronwyn were so young.  Yes 53 is a long life especially back then, but....sigh.

I didn't like Jehana much in this book - nor in the two Kelson trilogies.  Seems she's not only a spoiled brat, but she continued such throughout her whole time as a queen and queen dowager.  Mrs Kurtz described her as "pouting" when Brion had to go leave her for a while.  Frankly, Jehana doesn't seem to have grown up until she met and married Barrett.

One question I had and maybe someone could answer?  On pages 499 - 500, Brion was explaining to his Haldane lancers including Lord Ralson, about the rite they had witnessed when Brion's powers were brought out.  To quote a couple of lines:  "But we also have other powers when they are needed, which enable us to function as if we were, ourselves, Deryni.  My father, King Cinhil, entrusted a few of these abilities to me before his death..." 

I wondered about Brion saying his father "King Cinhil" - was that an overlooked typo, or maybe he meant his ultimate forefather in the restored Haldane line - or was there another deeper meaning? 

Anyway I'm going to re-read TKD.   :)

Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Jerusha on January 05, 2015, 08:54:19 AM
I think the general consensus is that it was an overlooked typo.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Laurna on January 05, 2015, 11:32:10 AM
I also believe this is a typo, otherwise the sentence might have read, 'My forefather, King Cinhil, entrusted these abilities in his reigning descendents before his death...' or some such wording.

QuoteI especially liked seeing so much of Kenneth, but was sorry that he died when Alaric and Bronwyn were so young.  Yes 53 is a long life especially back then, but....sigh.

I so agree with you here. It is almost like the book is two books. The half with Kenneth is like a book in itself. I loved Kenneth and I truly cried at his passing. That was a end of an era. After Kenneth the book takes on a different flavor- a youth growing into his own with men like Llion, Se, and Brion at his side.  In my mind, Jehana is merely an obstacle that keeps our young man on his toes.  I really would have loved to have more of an insight into the two months where Alaric and Brion spent traveling the Kingdom together. I think that would have some fun stories in it. Perhaps we can convenience KK to write a couple of quick short stories before she moves into the grander and heavier tale of the Road to Killingford.

Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Shiral on January 05, 2015, 04:37:40 PM
I concur, I think it was a typo. Rented fingers happen to us all!

Jehana's a tough one, yes.  She always has been for me, really. Seems like her youth, beauty, likely fertility and her rank outweighed what she lacked in the adult good sense one would like to see in a queen.  Or at least the ability to acknowledge that Brion would have died without powers, and so would she and all other living Haldanes if Brion had lost that battle, no matter how little she personally liked it.

I like the glimpses we catch of the developing friendship between Brion and Alaric in this book, but I wanted more about thatand more scenes of Alaric and Duncan  growing up together and a little less knightly training, personally. 

Melissa
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Evie on January 05, 2015, 04:56:20 PM
I could have done with more of Alaric and Duncan growing up together myself. ;)

To be fair (as I can be, anyway) re: Brion's choice of Jehana as Queen, IIRC she was only 14 or 15 when they met. (Remember, her father had to be convinced to wait until she was a little older before allowing her to marry, since waiting would improve her chances of surviving childbirth.) At that age, Brion probably expected that his pretty, giddy little teen bride would retain her cute and charming side yet grow into the maturity required for a royal consort. If he noticed through the initial haze of "Wuv, twoo wuv" that she was a bit spoiled, he probably just compared her with his sisters at the same age and figured that was normal for a young princess.  (After all, compare Xenia's behavior at that age. Even before Sigismund came into the picture, she comes off as a willful, arrogant little thing.  Silke seems far nicer, but then again, she's also younger when we first meet her, and while she isn't as arrogant as Xenia in later years, she's no less strong-willed.)  But instead, Jehana remained spoiled and immature throughout her life--much to her husband's chagrin later, but by then the marriage was a done deal.  Had her marriage been a happier one, I think she might have learned some maturity earlier on, but since the Deryni question was one that her conscience and religious training could never overcome, she became more hardened in her stubbornness and obstinacy.  But from her viewpoint, it was literally a matter of life and death--and not mere physical death, but eternal death--and therefore of the utmost importance to continue opposing Alaric and his influence over Brion (and later, Kelson) at all costs for. Given what she truly believed deep down in her heart, she could hardly have acted otherwise if she loved her husband and son; after all, even if they had died in duels against the Festillic Pretenders, at least she could hope to be reunited with them in the afterlife, whereas if they damned themselves by their willing participation in magic (which is what she honestly believed they were in danger of doing), she would be eternally separated from them after their physical deaths.  Given that paradigm, of course she was stubborn and refused to listen to what she considered their highly dubious "reason"!  It wasn't a viewpoint that she could have simply been cajoled out of, unless Brion happened to hit upon the key piece of evidence to show that her entire paradigm and worldview was built on a faulty premise, and alas, it didn't occur to him to bring up Deryni Healing as a point in the Deryni race's favor.  (He may have even been unaware that talent could exist, since Alaric didn't discover his Healing gift until after Brion's death.)  It wasn't until Jehana stumbled upon the Healers' Code in the secret annex, and John Nivard patiently (and far more objectively than Brion ever could) started winning her trust--that Jehana was able to view Deryni and their talents in a different light.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: drakensis on January 06, 2015, 01:48:34 AM
Although let's give Jehana credit for one thing.

She was willing, at Kelson's coronation, to put herself between him and Charissa. To out herself as Deryni, to do something she sincerely believed would damn her, in order to defend her son from both Charissa and from needing to use magic himself (and thus to go to hell so her son wouldn't - in her view at least). She failed and it isn't too surprising she felt the need to withdraw from the world at that point - she must have felt she'd made that sacrifice for nothing - but there was nothing selfish about the decision she made there.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Shiral on January 06, 2015, 11:31:58 AM
That's true, Drakensis. The prospect of Kelson dying the way Brion had was too much for her to bear, so Jehana was willing to sacrifice a lifetime of what she'd been taught to believe in order to protect her only child.  And I will also give her credit for being willing to listen to Barrett and Father Nivard.  Maybe they were the teachers who came along when she was at last ready to listen. I liked her better for that.

Melissa
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: DesertRose on January 15, 2015, 09:09:29 PM
I finally finished TKD today.

I agree with a lot of others about Alaric being a little unrealistically precocious.  Yes, he lives in a world where fourteen is the age of majority, and yes, he was forced by circumstances beyond his control to grow up fast even for that time and place, but he just seems to be awfully mature and talented for his age throughout the book.  Maybe it's just that he's never been a favorite character of mine.  I prefer the earlier-in-the-timeline stories of Camber and his descendants; my favorite character in the whole series is Rhys Thuryn with Dom Queron Kinevan being about tied for second with Dom Emrys (who must have a surname but I can't call it to mind right now, LOL).  I like Alaric better after Richenda enters his life; she humanizes him a good bit.

I did have to pause when I realized that Alaric was not yet twelve when he made his sexual debut; that's a bit young even in a world that considers a fourteen-year-old an adult.  To be a bit blunt, a lot of boys are not yet potent at that age, never mind playing games with maids of honor in hidden corners of summer royal residences.  :)

I also almost threw the book again when Kenneth died.  So abrupt, but life is like that sometimes.  (For those who don't recall my so saying, I threw Camber the Heretic across the room when I read Rhys' death: the only time in my life I've ever thrown a book.)

Jehana and Brion seem to have fallen head over heels without getting to know each other very well, although I think Jehana in her later years (after meeting John Nivard and Barrett de Laney) realizes what she threw away with her stupid anti-Deryni prejudice; she let truly ridiculous stuff poison her marriage.  And I think post-KKB, she owes Alaric a major apology for saving Brion AND Kelson at various points.

I'd like to have seen the look on Jehana's face when she realized that Brion intended putting Alaric's middle name into Kelson's name.  I bet THAT was an argument for the ages.

That all being said, I did enjoy the book, and I will pick up my own copy when it comes out in paperback.  (I have the rest of the CM trilogy in paperback, and I have this weird thing where all books in a trilogy must be the same type, i.e. hardback or paperback.)

I'm kind of surprised KK didn't cover Vera's death and I'd have liked to have seen more of Duncan's life too, not just where it touched Alaric's.  I understand that this trilogy focused on Alaric, but Duncan was an important person to Alaric for pretty much his whole life, and I'd have liked to have seen more of him.  I'd love to see his much-rumored ordination.  Maybe she just felt it was already long enough, LOL.

It would be nice to see a bridge book or series of short stories to tie up the loose ends between the end of TKD and the beginning of DR, though.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Evie on January 15, 2015, 11:38:43 PM
I think the main reason we didn't see either Vera's death or Duncan's ordination was that both events took place several years after the events of this novel, which ended with Kelson's birth. As for seeing more of Duncan (which I certainly wouldn't have complained about!), KK's POV character is Alaric, which puts a fair bit of restriction as to what she can describe going on in Cassan when Alaric is elsewhere. Having lots of reports about what Duncan is doing back home would sound too contrived after the first one or two, yet there's no logical reason why Jared would have sent his second son off to Rhemuth for fostering. He would have had more reason to send his ducal heir, if he were going to send a son off to become more familiar with the royal court and family for a few years.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Laurna on January 16, 2015, 03:37:51 AM
QuoteI finally finished TKD today.
;D Yeah DR!  ;D Glad to hear the reading is completed. I hope most everyone else on the forum has had a chance to get most way through it too.

I agree with much of what you say. What was funny is that when I first read the part about Alaric (at not yet 12) playing with the maids, my mind saw it as only "petting and kissing" and I thought 'Oh good, KK took out that provocative part.' But then after reading reviews, I had to go back and reread that bit and I realized 'Nope, it really is there,' I just didn't want to see That, so my mind skipped it.  I agree with you, 'Far too young'.

I really thought the book was two books and the first half could have easily ended with Kenneth's death. I didn't throw the book, but I sure did cry.  In the second half I wanted more, more of Brion and Alaric and even more of Nigel and Alaric. As King, Royal squire, and Royal page, I could see where the three of them could have gotten into a bit of mischief. I also would have liked more of Duncan and Alaric, too. True, Evie, it's Alaric's point of view, but Jared could have sent Duncan to Rhemuth for at least one season just to keep Alaric company. Although, that might have been more than Llion could handle, so perhaps it is best that didn't happen.  Darn! ;D


QuoteI'd like to have seen the look on Jehana's face when she realized that Brion intended putting Alaric's middle name into Kelson's name.  I bet THAT was an argument for the ages.

Oh my! I had not thought of that! Oh my! :o

QuoteIt would be nice to see a bridge book or series of short stories to tie up the loose ends between the end of TKD and the beginning of DR, though.
I would love to see a series of short stories to tie the two books together. Wouldn't that be great. Nothing too formal, just a story from KK now and then about this or that to peak our appetites. We could revitalize the Deryni Archives with them. ;D
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: revanne on January 16, 2015, 06:24:40 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on January 15, 2015, 09:09:29 PM

  I'd love to see his much-rumored ordination. 

Thanks DR - haven't been able to think of anything else today, and even though I work in the Church and am allowed to think about ordination and such in work time I don't think medieval AU ones count as work  ;)
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Jerusha on January 16, 2015, 08:08:33 AM
I have wondered several times if Alaric would have seemed more realistic if the story had been told from Llion's point of view, especially after Kenneth's death.  Alaric would not have needed to be quite so "adult" to tell the story properly.  Much as I like Morgan, I'm not sure I would have made it through a book told realistically from a 9 to 12 year old's POV.  ;D And as in ItKS and CM, you could have had a bit more of what was going on in the world than just what Alaric was directly experiencing.  I would have loved to see the trip to Torenth to retrieve Xenia's body, rather than waiting for the return with Alaric. 

Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: DesertRose on January 16, 2015, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: Evie on January 15, 2015, 11:38:43 PM
I think the main reason we didn't see either Vera's death or Duncan's ordination was that both events took place several years after the events of this novel, which ended with Kelson's birth. As for seeing more of Duncan (which I certainly wouldn't have complained about!), KK's POV character is Alaric, which puts a fair bit of restriction as to what she can describe going on in Cassan when Alaric is elsewhere. Having lots of reports about what Duncan is doing back home would sound too contrived after the first one or two, yet there's no logical reason why Jared would have sent his second son off to Rhemuth for fostering. He would have had more reason to send his ducal heir, if he were going to send a son off to become more familiar with the royal court and family for a few years.

This is true.  I think she could have cut some of the training scenes and extended the length of the timeline a bit, and that would probably have allowed for a little more variety.  I mean, Kelson's birth is a fairly logical cutoff date for the end of the book, but what the heck happened in the intervening fourteen years between Kelson being born and Brion being killed?
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: DesertRose on January 16, 2015, 10:09:14 AM
Quote from: Jerusha on January 16, 2015, 08:08:33 AM
I have wondered several times if Alaric would have seemed more realistic if the story had been told from Llion's point of view, especially after Kenneth's death.  Alaric would not have needed to be quite so "adult" to tell the story properly.  Much as I like Morgan, I'm not sure I would have made it through a book told realistically from a 9 to 12 year old's POV.  ;D And as in ItKS and CM, you could have had a bit more of what was going on in the world than just what Alaric was directly experiencing.  I would have loved to see the trip to Torenth to retrieve Xenia's body, rather than waiting for the return with Alaric.

That's an interesting thought, Jerusha, to have Llion as the POV character, and you're right, we could have gotten more things in with Llion's POV than with Alaric's.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: revanne on January 16, 2015, 12:00:27 PM
I guess that's a bit of a problem with a fill-in story. As it is we're left wondering what happened to Llion so that he doesn't appear in DR - that would be even worse if he was POV character. Although I totally agree that it would have made for a better story and I could have done without some of the training routines.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: drakensis on January 17, 2015, 11:24:09 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on January 15, 2015, 09:09:29 PMThat all being said, I did enjoy the book, and I will pick up my own copy when it comes out in paperback.  (I have the rest of the CM trilogy in paperback, and I have this weird thing where all books in a trilogy must be the same type, i.e. hardback or paperback.)
I'm just the same. The publishing industry's shift away from pocket-size paperbacks to larger formats wreaks havoc on my shelves as it is without mixing in hardbacks (except where I buy a whole series in hardback).
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Goscamber on January 17, 2015, 11:41:37 AM
What bothered me most was the excess of ceremonies for pages, squires, and knights.  They were described nearly identically.  Something KK's editor should have noticed and reined her in on.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Evie on January 17, 2015, 12:25:52 PM
LOL! Yeah, those scenes get a little repetitive,  although personally I was happy to see them since now I've got enough costuming detail to sew canonically accurate mini-Deryni squire and page livery. I was too busy bookmarking those pages to mind the repetition in the ceremonies!  ;D
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Laurna on January 17, 2015, 01:26:45 PM
I'm of the same mind as you Evie. I enjoyed all the ceremonies and never once thought them repetitive. Maybe it's the difference between male and female readers, or the fact that you and I  just love clothing, with the telling of where and how it was worn. Sorry guys.
I really loved the Tralian winter castle and how that ceremony played out.  And Se scolding Alaric for his brash attempt to read Wencit. Yep, that could have been some serious trouble without Se.
I also really enjoyed all the visits to Morgan hall and Lendour to meet family. Even though we had not meet them in the books written 30 years ago, we now know they are there, so that should open up another outlet of support for ALaric's children and his family. Even though Alaric appears to have chosen to stay clear of them in his young adult years, likely to protect them from persecution by being associated with him. ( Some new characters for Fan fic authors to play with? oops guess I should not suggest that here.  ;D)

There is very little in the book I would not recommend. My only complaint is that, in my mind, there are several missing scenes. I think your suggestion, Jerusha, of having a second POV from Llion would have really made a difference. Beta readers! Wouldn't we all love to be Beta readers. ;D
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: bronwynevaine on February 09, 2015, 07:11:17 PM
Quote from: drakensis on January 17, 2015, 11:24:09 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on January 15, 2015, 09:09:29 PMThat all being said, I did enjoy the book, and I will pick up my own copy when it comes out in paperback.  (I have the rest of the CM trilogy in paperback, and I have this weird thing where all books in a trilogy must be the same type, i.e. hardback or paperback.)

I'm just the same. The publishing industry's shift away from pocket-size paperbacks to larger formats wreaks havoc on my shelves as it is without mixing in hardbacks (except where I buy a whole series in hardback).

Me, too. So I bought TKD as an ebook to read on my phone  :)
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 26, 2018, 02:58:06 PM
Some great posts here!

I loved the relationships sketched out in this book between Kenneth and Alaric, and Llion and Alaric. 

I would have liked to see more brotherly bonding between the growing Alaric and Brion before they fought the Marluk together.

I'd have liked to see a scene where young Queen Jehana confronted Alaric directly about his being a Deryni, instead of her anti-Deryni prejudices just being rehashed.

And more of Se Trelawny.  I wish KK would just give him his own book; or more than one book; he is such a great character; like a medieval Deryni James Bond (or very much younger version of Gandalf the Grey, popping in when he's least expected and saving the day or at least doing cool things).  He could meet up with the almost-as-mysterious Azim (they have a Michaeline connection) and have adventures.  The Camberian Council and the Torenthi secret intelligence agency (you know they've got to have one, probably more than one) will have a bidding war over Se's services, so there will have to be some kind of face-off between Se and Wencit of Torenth.  I don't want him dying off quietly between TKD and Deryni Rising.  We need more of Se saving the day!

Which brings us to the question of the day, as others have mentioned - what happened to the young Alaric's effective Morgan family support network, i.e. Llion, Alaric's three aunts and various cousins?  It's hard to believe that they all would have died before the events of Deryni Rising...

As a trilogy, I would say that the three Childe Morgan novels are weaker in plot and pacing compared to the first trilogy, the Camber and Heirs of Camber books, and the King Kelson trilogy (which is really the best trilogy of all, in my opinion).  But Childe Morgan is a lovely, leisurely gapfiller in Deryni history; and made me fall in love with Kenneth Morgan.

((Edited KK's initials.  Only two K's, please!  :o   ;D  --Evie))
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: DesertRose on June 04, 2021, 11:53:34 PM
Quote from: drakensis on January 17, 2015, 11:24:09 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on January 15, 2015, 09:09:29 PMThat all being said, I did enjoy the book, and I will pick up my own copy when it comes out in paperback.  (I have the rest of the CM trilogy in paperback, and I have this weird thing where all books in a trilogy must be the same type, i.e. hardback or paperback.)
I'm just the same. The publishing industry's shift away from pocket-size paperbacks to larger formats wreaks havoc on my shelves as it is without mixing in hardbacks (except where I buy a whole series in hardback).

To necro a thread here, I never did buy a copy of TKD; with one thing and another, I just didn't get around to it.

I did put it on my Amazon wishlist, though, and one of my SCA friends made a Facebook "Random Act of Kindness" thread last year, wherein those who wanted to participate would post a link to their wishlists and it was encouraged to check other people's wishlists and send them a little something if/when/as one could.  So I joined the thread, posting my list and granting a wish when I could.

And today, I opened my apartment door to find a package containing a mass-market paperback of The King's Deryni!  So the trilogy is complete on my bookshelf!  Yay!
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Laurna on June 05, 2021, 10:17:17 AM
That is awesome, DR. Perhaps a little reading this weekend is in order before the book gets shelved.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: DesertRose on June 05, 2021, 11:35:35 PM
Quote from: Laurna on June 05, 2021, 10:17:17 AM
That is awesome, DR. Perhaps a little reading this weekend is in order before the book gets shelved.

Well, I'll need to re-read In the King's Service and Childe Morgan before I dive into TKD, so it'll have to be shelved for a day or two.  ;)
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: HoundMistress on June 07, 2021, 10:38:26 AM
Re-read it last year. I love all the young Morgan trilogy. I better! I begged KK for it for years and it did not disappoint.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: Kareina on June 09, 2021, 05:21:22 AM




Just noticed this conversation, and these two quotes caught my eye:
Quote from: snuffybear on December 20, 2014, 02:29:05 PM

I never once thought I was reading about a young boy growing into young manhood, but rather a young adult. Yes, I get that he was something special, but I would like to have seen him act his age at some point. And losing his virginity at 11? Seriously?


and

Quote from: DesertRose on January 15, 2015, 09:09:29 PM

I did have to pause when I realized that Alaric was not yet twelve when he made his sexual debut; that's a bit young even in a world that considers a fourteen-year-old an adult.  To be a bit blunt, a lot of boys are not yet potent at that age, never mind playing games with maids of honor in hidden corners of summer royal residences.  :)


I found that part quite believable. Why? Because one of my friends (who would have been born in the mid 1950's) told me years ago that he was only 11 when he lost his virginity. His dad thought he was old enough, and encouraged one of his adult, female, friends to "teach his son a few things". For reasons we will never know, she did.  While not all boys are producing viable sperm by that age, some are, and it isn't implausible to me that in an unsupervised setting some boys that young are getting the chance to experiment.
Title: Re: Fun Discussions of TKD! Please have TKD finished before entering. (SPOILERS)
Post by: DerynifanK on June 09, 2021, 08:05:57 AM
Considering everything that happened and was done to him while he was growing up, I always find it a little amazing that he turned out  to be such a fine man.